Bad valve spring day..

Where's the valve?

427 Fords were notorious for dropping exhaust valves due to the sodium filled stems fracturing.

I never heard of 351c's being particularly susceptible to this but there are now so many aftermarket components going into them durability is becoming a bigger issue than ever.

A failure like this USUALLY takes out the piston, the connecting rod (gets bent) and the cylinder head combustion chamber gets pound on by the valve and destroys it?

The D2AE-CA blocks are thin enough that often the bore cylinder cracks as well.

Nope. This one isn't going to polish out.

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

No valve to be seen, one of the CompCams valve locks was broken in 2. These are PAC 1255X-16 Racing RPM series beehive single springs, OD 1.445”, ID 0.731”, max lift 0.70”. Spring height is great, no spring bind, not near hitting the valve seal. A few gouges on the bottom of the Yella Terra rocker but spins nice still.

I used a breaker bar earlier to turn the engine to check the timing so I was still hoping the valve was still in one piece and just slipped down the guide, wrong..

Top of #4 piston..

The valve stem, thankfully was in the intake manifold. This is a Ferrea F6189 6000 Competition 2.19” swirl polished head, 11/32” stem, EV8 forged stainless intake valve.

Interesting. It's better than I would have thought?

Compcams is one of the companies I am having issues with because they have virtually no quality control checking.

They won't tell you where the components are made and it certainly isn't by them.

All the old "texts" of how the American "engine builders" would use various methods for checking components to me just comes home to roost now?

None of these companies want to pay for a human to do quality checking.


My story of Carrier (air conditioners) having a 50% failure rate at start up just keeps coming back.

The company went non-union and "off shore" to reduce production costs. Before they were in a 10 to 15% failure rate.

Doesn't make sense to me unless they are just dumping responsibility on someone else?

Compcams just dumped it on you?

The camshaft has grooves, difficult to say if how bad. Comp Cams custom mechanical roller camshaft, Grind# FC2314F/2318FR110
Duration @ 0.050 250 Intake - 258 Exhaust. Gross lift 0.640”, Lobe separation 110.0
 Cam in @ 105 1/2 cl. 
Crower 66218E Enduramax Solid roller lifters with needleless roller bushing
 look good and spin nicely. The pushrods roll nicely so might be okay, CompCams Hi-Tech 3/8" 0.080" seamless wall.
#4 bore has 2 small dents from the valve head / stem. In the picture of the head you might be able to see the gouge the valve stem made as it was pounded out of the intake port. Aluminium is in combustion chamber and intake manifold.
Engine is now out and will be crated up to send back to Kuntz and Co who built the engine, 1 year, ~2,000 miles ago.

I have been in contact with Scott Cook who made the heads and intake. He said he will repair and re-cnc the head. I will send the head and engine to Jim Kuntz and let him repair it, he has the expertise and hopefully quicker when adding in the shipping time to Australia. I did not have any oil or water leaks, oil in water or visa-a-versa. The Mahle piston can be replaced and hopefully the block saved, my original 15,000 mile-r.

Wow - you don't mess around.

Sorry to see and hear the bad news. It looks like it could have been a lot worse, but it's certainly bad enough.

Rocky

I feel for you... So sorry to see this. Looks like what happened to my fresh engine after only 980 miles or so. PAC Beehive spring broke and dropped the valve because the beehive springs have no damper to retain the valve if the spring or keeper fails. The RCA on my engine revealed some of the valve springs were out of spec, meaning they reached a coil bind situation with my cam even though my cam lift was well within the advertised capabilities of the springs.

Be sure your engine builder checks the compressed spring height of each spring. Your Beehive springs have advertised specs of:
Max Coil Bind: 1.210
Max Lift: .700
And your cam has 0.640” of gross lift. It would appear you have a sufficient safety margin, but everything's gotta be checked. I thought the same thing with my beehive springs and lift and trusted the advertised spec for the valve springs without measuring each one, so I ran into a coil bind situation with my engine.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

THANKS for posting the pictures & relaying the conditions found.

A GREAT reminder as per Garth, Doug's & many other experiences is that ...DON'T TRUST ANY advertised specifications, seemingly & SADLY quality is a long forgotten memory, & an individual's due-diligence & personal inspection, measuring, testing of each & every individual component is mandatory!...Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
THANKS for posting the pictures & relaying the conditions found.

A GREAT reminder as per Garth, Doug's & many other experiences is that ...DON'T TRUST ANY advertised specifications, seemingly & SADLY quality is a long forgotten memory, & an individual's due-diligence & personal inspection, measuring, testing of each & every individual component is mandatory!...Mark

While I agree that the assembly of the valve train needs to be checked at each and every step of assembly, that is doable and necessary by me or your builder, it is not possible during that assembly to verify BY ME (or your builder) that each and every component meets the minimum specification that the manufacturer intended. The manufacturer HAS to do that.

This has become even more of an issue now with attempts at much higher horsepower engines and as a result coming closer to the ultimate yield stresses of ALL of the components.

These are nothing less than ultimate race engines being put into street use and they have even under the best conditions a much shorter usable life span.

The answer is to just back off on some of these components like solid roller camshafts.

No one seems to heed the cautions? Now everyone has me reviewing my own valve train and cam specs?

Solid roller camshafts on the street are just disasters waiting to happen. The disaster IS going to happen. The only question is when, where and HOW bad? I just see them as a common denominator to be avoided.

Again. I am sorry for the loss. This just plain sucks.

Can you please elaborate on why solid roller cams are disastrous?

If the lash is checked regularly, shouldn't they last?

I can totally understand there being a "finer edge", like if not adjusted properly or allowed to have enough lash to start hammering stuff, but why else is solid roller so bad for the street?

My engine is a case example here as we all know, but I think there were some other factors in play in my engine's case (like abuse, and overreving, and age).

I always thought the main difference between solid and hydraulic was solids were capable of more performance (higher rpm's), but needed to be regularly adjusted, religiously.

What else about solid roller cams is so bad?

Just more stuff to go bad?

What about the solid roller cam on Bdud's engine caused this failure?

I think there is too much weight to the valve train. Too much "mass" to be technically correct.

If you look at bdud's cam lobes, they are already scoured. At what, 1,000 miles?

Show me someone with profiles like the two of yours that has got some real miles on the engine and doesn't need to keep going under the valve covers after every run.

Do you think you are imagining this? What is the common denominator in both engines? Maybe the cam?

I suppose that I am just old, old school but I feel there is no place for a roller cam like those on the street?

Those are just "Pro-street" engines and need the maintenance of a Pro Stock race engine. What's the point?

Just my perspective. It doesn't mean I am right. It does mean I was entirely right (for me) in staying with a flat tappet, solid lifter cam. I understand that one.

I don't understand why these solid rollers fail at all, but to me, it's undeniable?

How many miles did Roger say he had on that engine?


If that was my engine, that cam would have been long gone. My neighbor would be lucky not to find it thrown over the fence. I am not as patient with this stuff.

I didn't have the opportunity to spec my engine out, so I'm stuck with what I bought.

I can see what you are saying though. Mainly people are building race engines for street use, and race engines, while they make more power, burn out faster. Is that it in a nutshell?

That's a fair statement I think. People are going to disagree with that. I would love to think that it wouldn't matter what was spec'd but it does.

You mentioned 40 weight oil. To me that isn't a yellow flag, it's a red flag and if I don't pay attention to that probably a black flag sooner than later.

quote:

.... race engines, while they make more power, burn out faster. Is that it in a nutshell?

I don't have a race engine, but I have to throw in this quote from Blade Runner...

".....The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly, Roy Mike" (and BDUD)


I loved that movie!

Rocky

Relatively speaking, Extreme valve spring pressure & severe camshaft profiles/ramping are kryptonite to Superman's engine.

That is why exotic engines utilize dual overhead camshafts per cylinder head & 4 valves per cylinder to eliminate the necessity of having to resort to extreme valve spring pressures & HUGE camshaft profiles to develop 2HP per cubic inch of displacement ratios at the sacrifice of engine longevity ...Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:

quote:

.... race engines, while they make more power, burn out faster. Is that it in a nutshell?

I don't have a race engine, but I have to throw in this quote from Blade Runner...

".....The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly, Roy Mike" (and BDUD)

Rocky

GREAT MOVIE!!!...& I will add like the eventual end of a HIGHLY Stressed Race Engine..."Time to DIE!!!"...Mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU7Ga7qTLDU

They (many race engines) are very streetable IF you do the maintenance to them they require BUT the part consumption rate is not predictable.

I would say that you are living that proof. You are also PRESUMING that the former owner did not go through this as well? I think he did.

I keep saying this over and over and over, people just do not understand the nature of this "kind" of engine. THIS IS IT...and, you don't even know the condition of the valve springs.

Those are just ticking time bombs.

VERY, VERY, VERY simple solution. Change the camshaft. Put something more reasonable in there. Even a flat tappet solid lifter with similar timing will give you more of a safety factor then the roller lifters will.

Let the engine builders who disagree, and want to sell you their version of this engine guaranty the thing. Then watch them change their tune.

Otherwise...

"Bada-boom...BIG BADA BOOM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8WLYzA0lCs

Go with your plan A now I suppose? Run it until it breaks...again. Then go to plan B...whatever that is?


I remember a comment Elvis Presley made at the Arizona Monument news conference back in 1970 or so. Someone asked him what would he do if he found out that "it was all over for him?" He answered, "just say I've had my day and get on with it?" I guess that's true for all of us at some point?

She is so HOT! Especially in that orange "body thong" thing they had her wearing in that show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8WLYzA0lCs

At this point, I agree with you doug, not arguing at all.

It's just I'm tapped out. I overspent on the car (thought I was getting a solid, reliable car though) and have spent months of time and money just to get it back running.

Since my car is devalued until I install a new or rebuilt engine, I see no reason to spend any extra money on it at this point (save for a tune, and that it stays running). I'm saving to rebuild it next year.

The new engine will be specifically built with knowledge I've obtained from you and others here on this forum, and will be spec'd out to make big power but also last a long time.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
She is so HOT!

The new engine will be specifically built with knowledge I've obtained from you and others here on this forum, and will be spec'd out to make big power but also last a long time.

Now that you have had a taste of the forbidden fruit - can you ever be satisfied with anything less?

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
She is so HOT! Especially in that orange "body thong" thing they had her wearing in that show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8WLYzA0lCs

At this point, I agree with you doug, not arguing at all.

It's just I'm tapped out. I overspent on the car (thought I was getting a solid, reliable car though) and have spent months of time and money just to get it back running.

Since my car is devalued until I install a new or rebuilt engine, I see no reason to spend any extra money on it at this point (save for a tune, and that it stays running). I'm saving to rebuild it next year.

The new engine will be specifically built with knowledge I've obtained from you and others here on this forum, and will be spec'd out to make big power but also last a long time.

Well Scott Fuller is going to repair those heads for bdud AFTER he sends them back to Australia at his expense.

The fortunate part is that that head CAN be repaired.

Yours are Ford Motorsport/racing heads of the "Yates type".

Neither Ford OR Yates is going to make you the same offer for the heads.

Who is going to fix the block when you crack the wall, replace the piston, unbend the rod and the crank?

All considered I'd say the better deal is to pull off the heads, change out the springs, put a solid lifter cam in.

If you are going to need to wear diapers while driving this car it should be because it is too fast and not too fragile.


Yes. Mila has got it going. She's actually much hotter in person but her body guards are trigger happy. Don't get too close to her if you see her on the street. Just yell at her "ecto gammit" (never without my permission). She'll get it and maybe even wink at you?

Not to be judgmental but tangerine really isn't her color?

Hello Mike; Here is a suggestion ( OHHHHH NO!!!) that will dramatically increase the longevity of your existing valve train.

Question you need to ask yourself..."Do you want/need your current engine to rev to 8,000 RMPS??!!

If the answer is a resounding NO!!!

Then consider just replacing the existing springs with a set measuring considerable LESS "Fully Open Valve Spring Pressure".

Your current FOVSP is calculated on your engine revving to 8,000 RPMS.

Would you be satisfied with a Redline of 6,000-6,5000 RPMS?

Without knowing your exact FOVSP, I imagine by changing from a 8,000 RPM Redline to a more conservative 6,000-6,500 RPMs redline could reduce the valve train stress/wear by at least a 100 ft lbs.

You could still utilize your current camshaft.

At the worse by going to less FOVSP with the current cam, you could experience valve spring float at higher RPMS, which is like a built in over rev indicator

I would be Extremely curious if your engine is still building horsepower beyond 7,200 RPMS!...Mark

Oh Hell no! The new engine will probably make even more power! LOL Probably twin charge it, twin turbos with an 8-71 on top sounds about right. I'd have to modify the upholstery and rear window a little to clear the blower belt lol.

I should be able to make all the power I need without having to spend an exorbitant amount of money on my valvetrain, because I won't need to rev it so high! LOL

Honestly, I'm not sure what I'll build it into. The power IS addicting, but I KNOW I don't use all 650 HP, and I know I'd be happy with less.

1Rocketship, thanks for the suggestion. In my care the engine won't see 8000 rpm, i know this for sure, especially since my tach doesn't work, but I just don't rev my stuff that high.

Maybe if I can figure out how (or find someone who can help me) to tune my ancient Haltech ECU, (I've been told it IS possible) I can set a reasonable rev limit.

The car is running acceptably at present, albeit very rich. It WOULD be nice to actually get a real tune, but next year the electronics are all getting upgraded anyways, so again, how far down the rabbit-hole do I want to go before I get to rebuilding?

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
She is so HOT!

The new engine will be specifically built with knowledge I've obtained from you and others here on this forum, and will be spec'd out to make big power but also last a long time.

Now that you have had a taste of the forbidden fruit - can you ever be satisfied with anything less?

Hello Mike; Since you are NOT using the 8,000 RPM capabilities of your engine & would be satisfied with a 6,000-6,500 RPM redline.

I would eliminate the "Extra" valve spring pressure that your engine currently has that allows it to rev to 8,000.

I would be VERY INTERESTED, what your engine dynos at 6,000-6,500 & then at 8,000??

If the difference is 100 HP ( guesstimating) would you be satisfied with 550 HP, if it meant increasing the longevity of your engine, exponentially???!!

As an example...If your current 650 HP engine would last 2,500 miles before a mandated teardown vs a 550 HP engine that would last 7,500 miles before a mandated teardown...

Which would be your choice ??!! ...Mark

This engine will be rebuilt before I put either of your questioned mileages on the engine.

I wonder if your current block is already bored 30 over?...Mark

It may be, i was told it's a 408 now. I was told it had a Scat crank, I'm assuming it's a stroker crank, Scat rods, big balancer, Ross pistons, all the goodies.

Next year I'll have the entire block checked, along with everything else. The engine i plan to rebuild/blueprint to new/like-new condition.

I'm planning on upgrading the electronics as well, to control both timing and fuel (presently my Haltech only controls fuel).

If you upgrade to a 4 bolt main block, I might have "1" available for you at a very competitive price...Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:

I would be Extremely curious if your engine is still building horsepower beyond 7,200 RPMS!...Mark

The Yates heads typically continue to make power to the limit of the engines rpm capabilities. Definitely to at least 8,200 but that is the practical limit (for me).

You need to reduce valve train inertia to reduce spring pressure requirements.

The roller lifters add to it as do the large Cleveland valves.

Titanium valves help but don't have the same longevity of the stainless/chrome valves. I actually would not be shocked to find titanium valves in this assembly?



Hydraulic roller lifers have been in use for some time in OHV updated Chevys and Fords but for emmissions reasons and typically aren't set up for much over 6500 or 6600 rpms if even that?

Over head cam engines don't need to worry about these issues any more.


There are other issues too with the need for 3/8" push rods vs 5/16. Adds inertia. Incidentally, so does 40 weight oil.



I don't know if there is enough documentation around by ANYONE that will give an accurate guide on exactly how solid roller lifter valve trains can relate to zero maintenance and actual mileage projections for zero maintenance? If there is, show me, I want to read that?

Everything I am seeing is that they just require almost constant maintenance on them just like a Pro Stock drag race car does, virtually after every run.

Granted Pro Stocks are leaving the line in the 9,000 rpm area and this engine isn't. How that translates into less maintenance I don't think ANYONE can explain adequately?

A much simpler solution is to switch to a lower maintenance set up, but I suppose that happens more so involuntarily than any other way?



As far as the Yates heads practicality? Well. My A3 heads (the Yates heads are a later evolution of the Ford aluminum race heads started as replacements for the iron Cleveland and Boss 302 heads) flow on the intake 330 cfm at .630 lift.

The Yates heads, about 380 at the same lift.

If you cross reference that flow to the ability of 357 cubic inches to pump that, the engine is in the 10,000 rpm range in order to use it.

The flow graph is almost a perfect straight line as far as flow vs. lift. Theoretically you can just pick your spot where you want to limit it to with cam lift and you are done.

Well sort of. The Yates heads intake ports in particular are not just big holes in an aluminum casting, their forte is getting the flow by accelerated air velocity through the ports. Cutting the lift also CAN cut the velocity through the port. That change isn't necessarily going to be a straight line curve? That means the Yates head works better at very high lifts, very high velocities, probably much better than an iron head would at lower lifts but only a percentage of flow that you would think it should?



Iron heads have been shown (by Dan Jones) that with a nice valve job flow right around 300 cfm (298 is what Dan's flow bench showed). That's a very nice number for a street engine. He didn't mention velocity with them though.



So really the answer with those Yates heads is that yes they really do make actually 700 to 750 hp out of 357 cu in but at race lifts and rpms. The horsepower curve is pretty much a straight line straight up into the stratosphere.

Turning the engine to 8,200 rpms is VERY DIFFICULT to resist doing. The engine makes such wonderful sounds!



The profile of the camshaft that MTS has in the engine, simply put, compliments those heads.

On a street engine, a different head might be a better consideration? Maybe?


Anyway, those heads definitely do make the power and that and a $15 toll will get you over the Verrizonos Narrows Bridge into Staten Island. Look out for the pot holes. They are free.
Well actually it's free to get into Staten Island. You have to pay to get out.

Howzabout back to BDUD.....

Any updates? Or is everything out of the car, and on it's way for refurb?

Good luck on the reconstruction. If you post up a reassembly thread - we promise we won't hijack it next time....



Rocky

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
Howzabout back to BDUD.....

Any updates? Or is everything out of the car, and on it's way for refurb?

Good luck on the reconstruction. If you post up a reassembly thread - we promise we won't hijack it next time....



Rocky

"we"?

I know, I felt bad too about the thread going so sideways!

How is the block? Was it damaged? The heads and manifold can be welded and remachined correct?

If the rod got bent, then I'd suspect a complete inspection of every part on the engine is in order, block and crank checked for cracks, crank checked for trueness, the whole nine yards.

Why does anyone need to turn 8,000rpms?

von Braun doesn't?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj5twj2FXFs

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:

Howzabout back to BDUD.....Any updates? Or is everything out of the car, and on it's way for refurb? Good luck on the reconstruction. If you post up a reassembly thread - we promise we won't hijack it next time....



Rocky

"we"?

I meant the "Royal 'We'"

By which I mean "You"

(JOKE)

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:

Howzabout back to BDUD.....Any updates? Or is everything out of the car, and on it's way for refurb? Good luck on the reconstruction. If you post up a reassembly thread - we promise we won't hijack it next time....



Rocky

"we"?

I meant the "Royal 'We'"

By which I mean "You"

(JOKE)

Ha! I already tried that here.

This is the most undisciplined forum I've ever been on. Even the OP's here hi jack their own threads!

I do understand that though. For instance, MTS has got so many posts going here, he can't remember which one to post the latest disaster into! (no offense intended Mike)

No offense taken!

I just have had a LOT happen in a short period of time, and lots of questions, and this is a particularly quiet forum. I'm just livening things up a bit! lol

This is the best forum I've had the opportunity to participate in.

Thread jacks and threads going sideways is just a part of forums, but how people behave and react here is what makes it so great.

Lots of good people here.

OP, please keep us posted on any progress or repairs, I know I'm genuinely interested.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:

Howzabout back to BDUD.....Any updates? Or is everything out of the car, and on it's way for refurb? Good luck on the reconstruction. If you post up a reassembly thread - we promise we won't hijack it next time....



Rocky

"we"?

I meant the "Royal 'We'"

By which I mean "You"

(JOKE)

Ha! I already tried that here.

This is the most undisciplined forum I've ever been on. Even the OP's here hi jack their own threads!

I do understand that though. For instance, MTS has got so many posts going here, he can't remember which one to post the latest disaster into! (no offense intended Mike)

I shipped my engine out and it arrived at Kuntz & Co Friday. I will post an update on its prognosis. The broken valve spring should not have happened, everything was in in spec, I checked before I sent it off.
My engine was designed for a 6,700rpm limit and that is what my limiter is set for.
Comp cams only list 2 roller mech street cams for a 351c, I had a custom spec which was built between the 2.
I use 10w30 as per the builders recommendations.
The only camshaft lobs with marks were on cyl#4, the one with the rough time.