Sam I think your right on target. Oftem poeple say "it's what the professionals do". Often the profesionals do so because of time and money which is why I am taking the time to fix things the "professionals" did.
Ron the I have been playing with the fiberglass bondo. You can get it at autozone. I layed up some molds with it. Cool stuff!
When I was stitch welding yesterday, I was going back and forth between the dremel and welder. I didn't even bother putting on my mask. I just pointed the wand and closed my eyes. Today my face is sun tan!
A friend of mine brought me a nice door and asked me if I could tig weld a tiny patch on the front corner.Before I started I decided to remove all the paint to make sure there was no other damage I found none except for a light srape in the centre.Anyhow the previous body shop decided to just fill with bondo rather than hammer and dolly out the scrape.When I removed the bondo the steel was full of rust only where the filler was applied.I believe fillers trap moisture if applied directly to steel and this door proved me right.I agree you have better adhesion on steel but for long term I would rather apply to epoxy Sam
I did bodywork professionally for a few years, and we preferred to apply filler over self etching primer, as it bites into the steel and neutralizes the metal surface. We also tried to apply it over 36 to 80 grit scratches vs smooth metal, it will hold better. Also try not to build more than 1/8 th of an inch is also preferred.
Most, or probably all, filler manufacturers design and recommend them to be used over clean and prepped (sanded with coarse 36-grit), rust-free (sandblasted), dry (free from moisture), bare metal. They will stick to epoxy primers with mechanical adhesion. Body fillers do not chemically bond with epoxies. If you put filler over epoxy primer, it has to be fully cured, with no solvents such as thinner or reducer left in the primer, and still should be sanded with a coarse grit and cleaned. In other words, using epoxy primer under filler is a wasted step that may or may not cause adhesion problems later on.
This is posted by a Bodyman, Manufacturers Rep, Sales Rep.
I agree ..
This is posted by a Bodyman, Manufacturers Rep, Sales Rep.
I agree ..
I'm just an amateur but I have restored several rusted mid 50's American cars. I took a local community college auto body course part time a few years back. A PPG rep gave a seminar and said to apply epoxy primer over a 36 - 80 grit rough bare metal surface and apply the filler over the epoxy primer. All fillers use a chemical reaction to cure which creates heat. The heat creates and traps moisture from the humidity. Of course Houston is an extremely high humidity area. Like thewop I've found rust under bondo that was applied directly to bare metal. Bondo and regular primers are not moisture proof. They are like a sponge and hold water. Epoxy primers are moisture proof. I also use a product called All Metal as a filler instead of bondo. It's moisture proof and sticks like stink on s---. If you get bondo on your hands, it washes off with soap and water. If you get All Metal on your hands its there for a couple days. Even lacquer thinner won't completely remove it. I do all the body work and then apply epoxy primer over the entire car before using a primer filler and wet sanding. If you apply regular primer over bare metal and then wet sand, you've put moisture on the metal surface. All Metal does have a shelf life after it's opened. It's also more expensive and about 5 times and more difficult to use. Professional body men don't like it since they make their money on time and production. I've also had good results with Gorilla Hair for certain repairs. There's a lot of time and skill to doing auto body repair correctly which is why quality auto body restoration is so expensive.
Dan
Dan
That your opinion ... but the manufacturers recommendations all say apply it over bare metal. I'm not sure which filler your using that washes off with soap and water ???
Up here in NY where there is extreme 100 degree days and -5 degree days I would say would be the best test. I have never had Filler Crack unless the metal seem was not welded properly and never had rust form under filler.
I have to say if we are talking about professional body work or home repairs. Body shops are heated and temperature controled to some degree. The metal was preped with metal conditioner and sanded some where between 36 and 120 grit, apply bondo over the most stable base .. is metal ?
If we are talking home repairs ?? there is a variety of things like not preped metal, filler mixed wrong, porrly welded seem, brazed seems,...
And I dont use epoxy or etching primer. I use red oxide primer over bare metal, then fill and sand primer then paint.
we can go one for days ... to each is own.
Ron
Up here in NY where there is extreme 100 degree days and -5 degree days I would say would be the best test. I have never had Filler Crack unless the metal seem was not welded properly and never had rust form under filler.
I have to say if we are talking about professional body work or home repairs. Body shops are heated and temperature controled to some degree. The metal was preped with metal conditioner and sanded some where between 36 and 120 grit, apply bondo over the most stable base .. is metal ?
If we are talking home repairs ?? there is a variety of things like not preped metal, filler mixed wrong, porrly welded seem, brazed seems,...
And I dont use epoxy or etching primer. I use red oxide primer over bare metal, then fill and sand primer then paint.
we can go one for days ... to each is own.
Ron
Here are some more photos. If you look the front patch was not only on top of the metal but the front flair was on top of it. It is hard to see the impact from these photos but before this thing would have needed close to a 1/4" of filler just to smooth the transition. After the patche and flair was relieved into the fender it will need very little filler at all to smooth.
Nice work Are you able to remove the metal underneith the patch so that you could get a true butt joint?
Well it is a true butt joint but I don't think I will remove the extra metal for two reasons. I thought about it for a while. I think the extra metal may give additional suport in the corner and it is well attatched. Second my fear is if I try grinding it off may warp the metal and I will then go from an extra metal situation to being on the thin side. I think I will leave it.
those flairs actually look well made.What do you think?Also who do you think made them?
Flairs are solid. I think this was done in the 80's so it was probably a Hall kit. The structure and shape is good but it looks kind of thrown together. I have a lot of clean up body work to do just as I have done these with these fenders. This is exactly why I like doing this type of stuff myself. At least with everything already welded I don't have to align anything.
I agree the flairs could have been installed much better .Atleast now they will be repaired properly.If you need any reference or tips I like to go to metalmeet.com.They also have a forum board and cover anything metal related from welding techniques to metal finishing.
Thanks, I will keep that in mind. I pretty much know what I am going to do, it's just going to take work. Frankly, I enjoy this part of the build the most.
You do ...can I ship 6476 to you ???? LOL
Today I stripped my car completely of all its bolt on parts .. the car in on the rotissere and now the metal work starts ... only minor problem I have is aligning the flairs ... I have to mock up the suspension and need the wheels I'm going to use to get them right ??
Ok gotta get wheels ASAP.
Ron
Today I stripped my car completely of all its bolt on parts .. the car in on the rotissere and now the metal work starts ... only minor problem I have is aligning the flairs ... I have to mock up the suspension and need the wheels I'm going to use to get them right ??
Ok gotta get wheels ASAP.
Ron
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
You do ...can I ship 6476 to you ???? LOL
Today I stripped my car completely of all its bolt on parts .. the car in on the rotissere and now the metal work starts ... only minor problem I have is aligning the flairs ... I have to mock up the suspension and need the wheels I'm going to use to get them right ??
Ok gotta get wheels ASAP.
Ron
I think the flairs will kind of align themselves but I think it prudent to check them as well. I bet they all fall into place. Lot of work ahead!
Got the rear left fender done today.
I had a thought ... maybe I can make up a set of spacers to simulate the new rims and tires by using my old ones ... then mock up the suspension and get started .. I will ask around one of my friends have to have a set of tire and rims around.
I tell you the only think I'm a little gun shy about ..is the electrical wiring .. we very carfully removed the harness .. and its in great shape .. but putting it back ... its not my thing ... LOL
Ron
I tell you the only think I'm a little gun shy about ..is the electrical wiring .. we very carfully removed the harness .. and its in great shape .. but putting it back ... its not my thing ... LOL
Ron
LOL, I yanked mine out with NO RESERVE!:
I am actually thinking of designing one from scratch with the fuse box and rellays in the front trunk. I plan (at this time) to recess my battery in the front trunk. I am making plenty of other changes as well. I cut the light bar as I wanted it removed. I will probably rob sopmehting from the junk yard (or ebay) for individual lights motors. I will probably cut the front main squar structural bar and rotate it 180 dgrees to make more room for a drop shoot hood which I am going to try to make out of scratch; aluminum. I want to duct all the air out of the top like the Gt-40. And I want to....and on and on...
I am actually thinking of designing one from scratch with the fuse box and rellays in the front trunk. I plan (at this time) to recess my battery in the front trunk. I am making plenty of other changes as well. I cut the light bar as I wanted it removed. I will probably rob sopmehting from the junk yard (or ebay) for individual lights motors. I will probably cut the front main squar structural bar and rotate it 180 dgrees to make more room for a drop shoot hood which I am going to try to make out of scratch; aluminum. I want to duct all the air out of the top like the Gt-40. And I want to....and on and on...