1905 Photos

I am going to change it but I left it there to build the main engine mounts for the 400 first.

More:

Down to a shell. I'll be a little busy next couple weeks but soon I will fit it to the dolly and the rotisory I used for the MGB. Then off to medea blasters.

Look's like the beginning of a fine resto.Keep the pictures coming!

sam

I will have more photos latter but I have fit the car to the dolly. I used this dolly when I restored the MGB but I had to re-work the uprights to fit this car. I am in the process of modifying the rotisserie for the Pantera. I am building new mounting brackets:

FROM THE MGB:



TO THE PANTERA:

It looks like you have hours and hours of fun in front of you! The pictures you showed of the MG looked great and I am sure the Pantera will turn out nice.

Comp2, my hats off to you. Looks like your car has had a resto once before.My car had the same look two yrs ago with the exception of the wiring harness.God that box of wiring makes my hair stand up.Seems like the car is in great hands.

Dan

Some times I would like to get more done on the weekend and evenings. I think with grass mowing coming to an end I will have more time. Some times you get a few things done and other times you go like crazy.

quote:

Originally posted by Danno:
Comp2, my hats off to you. Looks like your car has had a resto once before.My car had the same look two yrs ago with the exception of the wiring harness.God that box of wiring makes my hair stand up.Seems like the car is in great hands.

Dan

Dan it had a mid 80's resto. It had a lot of work done to it. It's in pretty good shape actually!

The spring and summer you lose alot of time doing responsible things The winter you'll accomplish alot when your not shoveling snow.

Restoration projects are hair pulling, time consuming and frustrating but somehow at the end the results speak for themselves.

Yep Comp2 your a perfectionist! Nice garage by the way.

Dan

Thanks Dan!

Gary

GO Gary .... nice job ... I made my rotiserre and found it hard to attach in the front ... but it works well .. I was determined to put jacks on it so I could take it off the jack stands and get it up so I could rotate it.... only thing is I have not gotten to far with work, yard work but my garage is almost done .. insulated and sheetrocked for the winter ...radiant heat ... my project will pick up speed shortly ... Best of Luck.

Ron

Ron,

I would love to see a bigger photo of your front mount. I used 1-1/2" square tubing where the suspension was bolted:



I jacked my entire dolly up which worked real well for me. I put the dolly on jack stands at the needed height then built the frame work:



Since mine is not adjustable I will have to re-weld cut and re-weld to change the pivot point. Your pivot point looks lower then mine. Where is it and how do you like the pivot point you have?

Gary

Ron what do you think the car weighs stripped down? I could lift both ends and I doubt I could dead lift over 400lbs so I was guessing about 350-400.

I don't have photos but it is all tack welded. I just need to take the mounts off and weld them up. I'll be out of town this weekend so I am not sure when it will happen.

Gary

I remember reading about 500 #s somewhere.

On my L model, I used the bumper shock mounts for the rotisserie attachment. It was pretty close to the center of gravity so it pivoted really easy; didn't even need to lock it down to keep it in position.

Jeff do you have a photo?

Gary,

My front pivot point I'm not the happiest with but I wanted to keep them almost center of the rotation point on the Rotissere. I used old FREE WHEELING HUBS out of my Fathers garage that were brand new for rotation.

The wieght ..well I lifted it about 6" off the jack stands ... I'm not the HULK but my interior is still inside ... I'd have to say your guess is close it would be nice to get a hold of one of the old meat scales and attach it to the engine crane ???? HUMMMMM!!

I will take a close up of the front mount.

Mine rotates ok but needs to be guided as it wants to go over on the roof but it also wants to go right side up.... it fells like it doesnt want to be on its side.

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Gary,

My front pivot point I'm not the happiest with but I wanted to keep them almost center of the rotation point on the Rotissere. I used old FREE WHEELING HUBS out of my Fathers garage that were brand new for rotation.

Too high or low?

I think I wrote the last response as you were submitting yours.

Too high or low? I went stright thru the grill opening and there wasnt really anything to attach except the lower control arm holes then I need a second piont I drilled a hole in the cross member below the raditator and used a pice of threaded rod ??? it works fine but at some piont it has to comeout and the hole fixed.

Ron

Very cool project. Would have loved to have one of those rotisseries when I did my car. Man thats gotta make things so much easier.

Front view of rotisserie thru holes for shock mounts. Don't seem to have a pic of the rear mount but it is the same. Sur wish I had taken more photos.

I did get time to work on it today. Here is how it came out:

I put a lot of photos of the shell in this directory for those who want to see different corners and angles of a stripped shell:

http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/strip/

The car is actually in pretty good shape. The weakest part is the front. The car apears to have been on a rotisory before. I know it had a major going through around 1985 but I know not by who. As I turned the car on it's side some sand type medea fell out so I suspect it has been through the blasters before. The only part untouched was the front. It seems as if what ever they did they never touched the radiator or the area around it. The front trunk has deffinantly had a brake fluid leak at some time.

If you look at some of under belly shots look how good of a job they did welding on the fender flairs.

I think you started with the wrong car this one is looking too easy.

I hope #1280 looks that good when its taken apart.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Mensen:
I think you started with the wrong car this one is looking too easy.

I hope #1280 looks that good when its taken apart.

You know I can look at the under structure for hours. I think of things I can do to make a few things bettter but I can also see how a group of poeple who were building race cars in the late 60's made a production car. I can envision the jigs and the parts being made.

WHY ISN'T SOME ONE RE-PRODUCING THESE HERE NOW! We can certainly do what they did back then and we could do it better! There is nothing hard in the under structure of this car!

Comp2, everytime you post more pictures, I become more jealous! I wish that I had the time to do some of the things that you are doing. I love seeing the Pantera on the rotisserie. My biggest problem right now is time and space. I plan to add on to my garage which will give me the space. But time that is the tough one!

I put the car on it's side and measured the weight required to hold it there. After a few calculations I came up with the pivot point and adjusted my rotator. This is very close to the center (asuming the wight of my brackets). The car stays where ever I put it now:







Car is completely stripped and ready to go to media blasters.....When I find one!

Dropped off at the media blasters today!!!

Back from medea blasters a couple weeks ago but just getting to it. The soda get's off all the paint but a little soft on the rust. I am going over it inch by inch blasting the remainding rust and POR 15 the non-body areas. I will etch prime the body areas. This is 2 solid days work:













Gary

You sure make it look easy! Please keep the pictures coming!

Wow beautiful job it's really coming along well.I always check this post to see your progress since I want to do the exact same thing.I noticed that the car has steel fender flares could you send or post some pixs of them and how they were installed?It looks like soneone did a quality job on them.I guess that garage full of resto equipment will come in handy now Congrats Sam

Sure will sam. Do you have the fenders? The fenders are actually overlapping and spot welded. I have been playing around and I am going to cut the fender and align the metal and re-weld it. I have a ton of sheet metal work to do which I love. Here was a quick patch panel job I did with the MIG:









Gary

Hi Gary
No I do not have fender flares yet,but I am going to go with steel for sure.Are you going to weld the flares fully ? I suppose you will be .Very nice patch by the way .Nice to see a flush butt jointed weld show's that the car will be restored correctly. Keep the pixs coming I'm sure I'm not the only one who's interested Sam

Damn Gary, you do make it look too easy! NICE job, and please keep the pictures coming.
Mark 6808

Thanks,

Sam yes I am going to stitch weld the entire seem flush. I am cutting about 8" at a time with the dremmel and relieving the fender till flush. It looks like it is going to work well. With the overlap there was a lot of filler to make it smooth. The guys that had it before me even filled the seems under the car and in the fender well. I wouldn't be surprised if I shed 50lbs just from filler.

I guess guys in a body shop can't make any money if they spend that kind of time on the body work but it would scare me buying a steel flair car knowing how much filler they actually used to make it all flow. They slapped metal patch panels all over the place and just sculpted the car out of filler. ALL that will be fixed!

quote:

The guys that had it before me even filled the seems under the car and in the fender well. I wouldn't be surprised if I shed 50lbs just from filler.


Dennis Quella recommends welding those seams to strengthen the body.

They slapped metal patch panels all over the place and just sculpted the car out of filler.


Just like Coddington and the hot rod guys do.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff6559:

They slapped metal patch panels all over the place and just sculpted the car out of filler.

Just like Coddington and the hot rod guys do.

This is why I like restoring my own cars doing 90% of the work.

Something that was interesting; I knew where all the filler was because of the cracks. There were a dozen areas with lead and not one of them showed any signs through the paint.

Gary,

Great job ... I'm stalled with my BODY at the moment and trying to gather parts, got the steel flairs and I'm planning Lead ( really its a 50/50 lead / Tin ) on the seams for exactly that reason it dont crack .. but mixing a little fiberglass resin in with the body filler help strenghten the filler.

My motor is well under way .. pics will be coming soon .. priority of finshing my shop has to happen before I dig into the car to deep.

I agree I just got wind of a PANTERA owner who spent in excess of 20k on his BODY and its still not done. WHATS DA F#$@ !! I think its time to go back in the BODY Business .LOL

Anyway keep up the good work ..

Ron

Ron, Eastwood has a lead filler and a non lead filler that works the same. Do you know if or how well the non lead filler they make works?

And yes...Photos would be good!

Thru experience the lead on a car is really a 50/50 solder sold in bars at a Plumbing or electrical supply, lead it self will not stick to steel, a little sodlering flux ( NOCORODE brand ) and a cloth made out of JEANS material with a little wax on the cloth .. you will soon be called George Barris ..LOL

Non lead filler I think will very hard to work with with a torch. It means it has less lead and I higher melting point ... the lead is flexible and dosent crack.

As long as you dont eat it ... its the best for long lasting body work ... LOL

Ron

This is their lead free:

http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/product/detailmain.j...519&iProductID=14772

I know the leaded areas in my car showed no signs of paint cracking, shrinking or anything else (unlike the rest of it). Read where the lead free may not flex as well as lead. I am a little skeptical of the lead free.

My experience with lead work has been passed on the me from 3 generations ..thats why I'm CRAZY !! LOL no .. to get a Plumbing lisence in NYC and surrounding it was required 10 years ago.

Save your money : get a pair of jeans cut out a square 6x6 and fold the cut edge in so you have a 21/2 x 21/2 square pad ten drip wax all over both sides.. the wax from a candle on your finger side will prevent your fingers from burning. Next you need NOCORODE flux and an acid brush. Next you need LEAD BASED SOLDER 50/50 bar solder .. look on the NET you'll find it .. let me know if you cant I'll send it to you. Then a half round file. a course one .. we also have a product called SOIL .. its a black compund you paint the surface around the area you dont want solder to stick.

Thn you need a small propane tank ..propane is best because its not as hot as Acetylene. Yo want it cooler and a wide flame.

Heat the sheetmetal to warm and start .. Ive seen your welding .. you can do it ..easy.

If you want EASTWOODS kit buy it but use LEADED SOLDER.

Ron

Oh the wax jeans cloth is your paddle .. use the torch drip solder on the areas enough to fill the area .. then with the cloth and the torch heat and wipe ...heat and wipe .. a little flus on the entire area before you drip solder and sometimes a little as you go to make it stick.

Remember same as welding aluminum ... it has to be clean a virgin steel and the bar solder I file off the outside so there are no contaminents.

A little funny thing .. when wipping lead pipe joints .. you know the lead solder content is perfect when you pour a little circle about 1" and there will be 5 or 6 little dots created on top as it drys .. why I have no idea ..but My Pop taught me this and the TEST INSTRUCTOR looked for it .. LOL

Ron

Thanks Ron, When it comes time it is something I would like to do and probably will. I am going with the lay down radiator, removed the headlight bar. I would also like to fab an aluminum hood from scratch to duct the air from the radiator. I know the gt-40 hoods are not as nice looking but I want to get my air out from under the car.

I would like to see that .. I'm going to alter my steel hood to make a GT40 style .. I like the look and I will be cutting out the head light bar also but I would like to move the fuel tank up front also .. Hmmm speaking of head lights ??
LOL

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
I would like to see that .. I'm going to alter my steel hood to make a GT40 style .. I like the look and I will be cutting out the head light bar also but I would like to move the fuel tank up front also .. Hmmm speaking of head lights ??
LOL

Ron

I struggled with the idea of cutting out the headlight bar. In reality it would be easy to weld a new bar back in but I wanted it gone. I think for headlights I am going with individual electic motors; probably something simple to open and close thim. Still research to do there but it will probably be either an adaptation from another car or my own worm gear limit switch adaptation.

I am going to keep my fuel tank in the original location except I am moving it from the left side to the right side which means new fuel tank fabrication all together. Should be fun. I am doing it because the oil comes out the left side and I want to duct it straight into a fan/air oil cooler with ducting from the left window. The water tanks and oil acumilator will be on the left side as well.

Speaking of the Water tanks .. I seen a cool idea ... for a windsor .. they reversed the intake and maybe the heads .. cant remember but the water neck was in the back .. and the rad hose routed to the left side. I have to find the picture but it was agood idea.

Ron

Oh no Ron it has to be 100% stock. Actually I am always up for new ideas.

Stock whats that ??? 6476 is my black car ... I'm not worried about stock on that car... it seems the nicely done cars bring almost as much on the auction block as the 100% stock muscle cars.

I already came to terms that it is a bottomless pit and dont expect your money back..if you do your ahead of the game.



Ron

There will certainly be some money in it but I hope to do most of my own work. I hope it is more my time then anything.

Gary,

SO what media did they use and were you happy with the job .. did it bring it to bare metal ??

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Gary,

SO what media did they use and were you happy with the job .. did it bring it to bare metal ??

Ron

Yes and no. Yes in that they removed all the paint and did so without any garnish to the metal. That is what soda is good for. No in that it left some rust. The place that did the MGB did so with glass then etch primmed it. I think I really like the glass as it does get into the metal which is essential to really getting rid of the rust. The glass roughs up the metal just a little which is great as long as you coat it right away.

On the flip side I am doing the final blasting myself which means I know every inch of the car and I don't have to wonder what the metal looked like before some one else primmed it. I could have never gotten the paint off so it served me well. Only problem is cold wet weather has moved in so I don't know when I will be able to resume. I will have to work on other parts till then. I have plenty to fab up anyway. We keep the humidity pretty low in the shop so I don't have to get in too much of a hury.

G

I understand ... I have a guy close to me that can soda blast mine .. so maybe I can aks him to glass bead the rust and welds ?? Or maybe glass only ??? I was also thinking of glass beading it myself .. but as you say the cold is upon us. Maybe it pays to shoot some primer on it quick and touch up the fab'd areas. But I have to say my engine compartment has been sitting bare and no rust has grown yet ... and thats 6 months.

Hey Man good luck and keep up the good work ..

Ron

That's been my mind delema too. These guys were the only blasters I knew so I really didn't have any decisions to make, I just had to deal with it.

If you or he can get it etch primed imediatly I would say glass. If you are going to tackle it a little at a time lime me I would say soda. Suposedly since the soda does not etch the metal the metal will resist rusting better.

My sand blaster could never have removed the paint as they did. I was glad I could find some one who could do it. As I did it I am going over every square inch myself which I like because I know the metal is 100% rust free. I am using por 15 on everything but the body. It says it needs something rough to adhere too. It gives you 3 options. One is brush the rust and go over the rust. I wanted the rust gone. Second option would be to treat it with metal ready acid then wash it off.....So you can wash it into vevery nook and crany and then begin the surface rust right away with etched metal and water? I don't think so. The third was to blast it or sand it. That''s what I did.

If you look here you can see the metal on the right was still shiny from the soda blast. A lot of what you see is some sort or glue or something. Where I sandblasted is lightly rough and clean. I believe being freshly blasted like that anything would stick well!

Like you said, my number one goal is to get it in primmer. I can clean off the primer latter for repairs. As far as what is the best way? Does anyone really know? I think this just worked for me.

By far what your doing is the best way .. obviously even Detomaso didnt do as good of a job. Just make sure you blow some POR15 in the inside of frame rails and in the nooks and crannys.

I cant say I have BLASTED a car before .. but what I did do was acid dip a few ... after the dipped them they would dip it in a nuetralizer ... then send it home.. the car would start to rust within hours .. so it had to go right to my Garage then my process was qucikly wipe it down with A DUPONT Metal Prep mixed with water .. then a REDOXIDE primer .. after that the body work followed always capping the metal with REDOXIDE .. then a FILL AND SAND primer ... back 20 years ago it was all laquer based ..

Ive heard of the etching primer but have never used it ??? I cant wait to get to that stage.... I will be doing it slowly like you.

Ron

I really have reservations about acid dipping. These things have too many channels. I have heard of people who finished their restoration only to have the acid drip out on their paint first drive. That just concerns me. I have heard of some with accelerated rusting from the inside out too. If you can't get all the acid out how would you know if it has all been neutralized?

I intend to srpray inside the channels but I am not sure how to go abut doing it yet. I have some ideas.

The etch primer is a standard Dupont primer. The metal actually does not have to be roughed up for it. It will etch in and I like that. That's a good place to start. Guy at the paint shop said one of them actually got some on his glasses when he sprayed and it actually etched into his lenses.

This is the MG when it came back and now:

http://www.rc-tech.net/MGB/engine/e2b.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/MGB/etched1b.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/MGB/tunnel/cart1.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/MGB/gal/d1.jpg

Ron, how far are you? Do you have a roto?

Gary

Acid dipping .. not sure how acid would run out .. it has consistancy of water and the Nuetralizer is a base that brings the acidity back to about 0 ... the issue is .. yes it tears up rust and usually eats it .. buit not to worry nobody does it any more. I like the glass .. I think soda is the best route and maybe a little glass or sand on the rust.


I heard the etching primer is the way to go .. that MG is a work of art. Is this your hooby or business ??

I'm stuck at the same point I was 6 months ago .. had to devote a lot of time to my Business as it need some restructuring .. like firing all Union employees in my office and starting a split shop. So the project suffered. And got married ... ok these are my excuses .. but the motor is well on its way .. i'll get some pics this week. 351W SVO block C302B heads off a alcohol blown drag car and we are building 393. solid roller 12 to 1 compression dry sump ... I wanna go racing. Ive been told PANTERA is not the car to do it IN ! BUT THATS WHAT I WANNA DO !

Ok here is the last pic of its present state

Ron

Have you checked around to see who can do that work in your area? If you can get some one to blast it and prime it all you got to do is get it too them.

How does your car look? Probably hard to tell till you get it stripped.

You can race a shopping cart if the guy next to you want's to race!

G

Lte me put it to you this way .. in my opinion .. this is the car to cut up ... everytime I turn it upside down sand comes out of it ... its not too rusty .. but it was bumped in the front left and on rocker was dented ... it has been worked on before ... thats why I'm still up in the aor about blasting it ... yes there is a blaster 30 min from me.... but dont think he will prime it ...

Ron

I forgot to answer, the MG is my first car. Just doing it for fun.

Body repairs would be the hardest but look at every thing underneith. Repairs are just work. Structure wise I don't think there is anything you or I couldn't cut out and replace. I stared at the frame work of this car for hours. I think we could have made the jigs and built these cars. It tells alot about a race car builder building cars in the early 70's. Pretty cool.

Can you make arangements with a body shop near by to get it etch primmed as soon as they get it stripped? If you get that much done, you are not on a time crunch to get the bare metal protected.

I can easily prime this up after they blast in in either my shop or my barn at home ... its just that I have to complete stripping the car of its parts .. only one thing makes me nervous is the electrical ... It not my strong point. I will be completing stripping this up coming weekend and calling the blaster ... just hop theres not too much metal work under the paint.

Ron

If it's blasted, the media leaves a residue that protects it from rust for a pretty long period of time. Just don't touch it with your hands or body as that takes away that protection and lets surface rust start. Besides, you don't want to prime until you've got as much of the media out as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff6559:
If it's blasted, the media leaves a residue that protects it from rust for a pretty long period of time. Just don't touch it with your hands or body as that takes away that protection and lets surface rust start. Besides, you don't want to prime until you've got as much of the media out as possible.

Blasting provides no measurable protection. Since soda or walnut shells don't get into the metal they don't expose it as much to fresh rust like sand or glass but there is a hint of rust if you look close in a very short period of time even in dry weather. There is no time to waste here! That is why I am going back over every inch right before I prime. Getting the media out is no issue. Roll the car around on the roto, vacume here, blow out there. Wherever sand or dry media is it will not create future problems like liquid. It is not going to get into a channel and start stripping anything on it's own. You only going to sand what can be primmed with an air gun so you can work the cavities latter anyway.

When I first put this car on a roto before stripping, some blasting material and some "bondo dust" came out from when the car was re-done in the 80's.

quote:

Blasting provides no measurable protection. Since soda or walnut shells don't get into the metal they don't expose it as much to fresh rust like sand or glass but there is a hint of rust if you look close in a very short period of time even in dry weather.

Actually, I was talking about sand blasting since this would be on the shell of the car and it can easily handle the more aggressive media.

Sandblasting is the worst as it disrupts the surface and will begin to rust far quicker then a less agressive medea. There is no resedue to protect it.

The flairs as I said before were patch panels spot welded over the top. Ton of filler to make it smooth. This was where a lot of cracks were.

I cut the flair with a dremmel cut off tool. I cut about 8" at a time and the outer skin would line up then Mig weld a little as I go. After it was all tack welded then finished closing the gap. Nice and slow so it doesn't get hot or warp. Slowly grind it down.

Threw some acid etch primer over the left side, still more to do before the rest of it but the metal is now even across the fenders:

Overlap:


Cut and welded flush:



Getting there, more to gind:

Gary,

Not sure I understand ... those are the exact flairs I just bought ... but I was thinking of putting the 3/4 flap behind and tacking it .. then welding the front edge. Your work look great... the MIG did a fine job.

Ok its coming back to me now .. I used a product called GORRILLA HAIR as a first coat over the welded seems ..this has fiberglass hairs in it with body putty and is mixed with hardener.. This is used to rebuild fiberglass bonding strips. It reinforces the seem with the fiberglass hairs. I wouldnt recommend finishing that seem with bondo alone. You could also use fiberglass mat and resin.

Ron

I will look into thet Ron. If you look where the primer is there is no more seem. I still need to grind beyond the primmer (continuing to the right) which is why I only primered that far.

I think most flairs I have seen have the flair on top of the fender. If you look through the mags you will see them with the seem as part of the shape. For instance in front of me is Pantera International Spring 2005 #122. Look at the Hawaii Pantera starting on page 40.

Yes I see what your saying ... you mean they try to simulate the mounting flange of the fiberglass flair where they rivet it on ??? Hmmm

Yes Spring 2006 page 22 both cars have what your saying .... ok i got it... missed that detail .. its a good thing I didnt start yet ...

Ok one more thing I just remembered .. theres a long dispute ... putting body filler on .. does it go over primer or on bare metal. I was taught on metal and check out autobodystore.net he did a test. the ebst result was over I think 120 grit prepared surface.

Ron

"My Opinion" is best to get somehting on the metal first. I prefer the etch primer as I said before because it really digs into the steel.

Your right about the dispute about which goes first.When I took my apprenticeship for autobody in college they taught us to etch the steel and apply filler directly,so that is why there is a dispute.Many bodymen really don't want to do it any other way.There is really no way of knowing which is better.I personally like to apply filler over properly applied epoxy because you know that there will be no reactions with the catalyst in the filler and the steel.Using a high build epoxy is always best so that the material is not easily sanded off when you are shaping the filler.That's only my opinion . Sam

The proper way is to apply over the steel. Why ? because the epoxy is flexible and doesnt allow the bond to be created and thats how cracking starts. There is a way to tell which is better and AUTOBODYSTORE.NET ran a test ....check it out... whats really unusual is that the body filler bonded to metal that was sanded with 120 grit paper better then the one that was sanded with I think 40 grit. Look at the test they ran. Applying Epoxy and Etching primer is great .. a real break thru in primers ... one of the old prducts that was around 20 years ago was Eliminator 1100 was the same principle .. it mostly prevents shrinkage that years ago might bleed thru after the paint job is complete.

There are body fillers that are fiberglass based that prevent cracking .. that should be the first layer which add strenght to the seam.

Just my experience.

Ron

Sam I think your right on target. Oftem poeple say "it's what the professionals do". Often the profesionals do so because of time and money which is why I am taking the time to fix things the "professionals" did.

Ron the I have been playing with the fiberglass bondo. You can get it at autozone. I layed up some molds with it. Cool stuff!

When I was stitch welding yesterday, I was going back and forth between the dremel and welder. I didn't even bother putting on my mask. I just pointed the wand and closed my eyes. Today my face is sun tan!

A friend of mine brought me a nice door and asked me if I could tig weld a tiny patch on the front corner.Before I started I decided to remove all the paint to make sure there was no other damage I found none except for a light srape in the centre.Anyhow the previous body shop decided to just fill with bondo rather than hammer and dolly out the scrape.When I removed the bondo the steel was full of rust only where the filler was applied.I believe fillers trap moisture if applied directly to steel and this door proved me right.I agree you have better adhesion on steel but for long term I would rather apply to epoxy Sam

I did bodywork professionally for a few years, and we preferred to apply filler over self etching primer, as it bites into the steel and neutralizes the metal surface. We also tried to apply it over 36 to 80 grit scratches vs smooth metal, it will hold better. Also try not to build more than 1/8 th of an inch is also preferred.

Most, or probably all, filler manufacturers design and recommend them to be used over clean and prepped (sanded with coarse 36-grit), rust-free (sandblasted), dry (free from moisture), bare metal. They will stick to epoxy primers with mechanical adhesion. Body fillers do not chemically bond with epoxies. If you put filler over epoxy primer, it has to be fully cured, with no solvents such as thinner or reducer left in the primer, and still should be sanded with a coarse grit and cleaned. In other words, using epoxy primer under filler is a wasted step that may or may not cause adhesion problems later on.

This is posted by a Bodyman, Manufacturers Rep, Sales Rep.

I agree ..

I'm just an amateur but I have restored several rusted mid 50's American cars. I took a local community college auto body course part time a few years back. A PPG rep gave a seminar and said to apply epoxy primer over a 36 - 80 grit rough bare metal surface and apply the filler over the epoxy primer. All fillers use a chemical reaction to cure which creates heat. The heat creates and traps moisture from the humidity. Of course Houston is an extremely high humidity area. Like thewop I've found rust under bondo that was applied directly to bare metal. Bondo and regular primers are not moisture proof. They are like a sponge and hold water. Epoxy primers are moisture proof. I also use a product called All Metal as a filler instead of bondo. It's moisture proof and sticks like stink on s---. If you get bondo on your hands, it washes off with soap and water. If you get All Metal on your hands its there for a couple days. Even lacquer thinner won't completely remove it. I do all the body work and then apply epoxy primer over the entire car before using a primer filler and wet sanding. If you apply regular primer over bare metal and then wet sand, you've put moisture on the metal surface. All Metal does have a shelf life after it's opened. It's also more expensive and about 5 times and more difficult to use. Professional body men don't like it since they make their money on time and production. I've also had good results with Gorilla Hair for certain repairs. There's a lot of time and skill to doing auto body repair correctly which is why quality auto body restoration is so expensive.

Dan

That your opinion ... but the manufacturers recommendations all say apply it over bare metal. I'm not sure which filler your using that washes off with soap and water ???

Up here in NY where there is extreme 100 degree days and -5 degree days I would say would be the best test. I have never had Filler Crack unless the metal seem was not welded properly and never had rust form under filler.

I have to say if we are talking about professional body work or home repairs. Body shops are heated and temperature controled to some degree. The metal was preped with metal conditioner and sanded some where between 36 and 120 grit, apply bondo over the most stable base .. is metal ?

If we are talking home repairs ?? there is a variety of things like not preped metal, filler mixed wrong, porrly welded seem, brazed seems,...

And I dont use epoxy or etching primer. I use red oxide primer over bare metal, then fill and sand primer then paint.

we can go one for days ... to each is own.

Ron

Here are some more photos. If you look the front patch was not only on top of the metal but the front flair was on top of it. It is hard to see the impact from these photos but before this thing would have needed close to a 1/4" of filler just to smooth the transition. After the patche and flair was relieved into the fender it will need very little filler at all to smooth.

Nice work Are you able to remove the metal underneith the patch so that you could get a true butt joint?

Well it is a true butt joint but I don't think I will remove the extra metal for two reasons. I thought about it for a while. I think the extra metal may give additional suport in the corner and it is well attatched. Second my fear is if I try grinding it off may warp the metal and I will then go from an extra metal situation to being on the thin side. I think I will leave it.

those flairs actually look well made.What do you think?Also who do you think made them?

Flairs are solid. I think this was done in the 80's so it was probably a Hall kit. The structure and shape is good but it looks kind of thrown together. I have a lot of clean up body work to do just as I have done these with these fenders. This is exactly why I like doing this type of stuff myself. At least with everything already welded I don't have to align anything.

I agree the flairs could have been installed much better .Atleast now they will be repaired properly.If you need any reference or tips I like to go to metalmeet.com.They also have a forum board and cover anything metal related from welding techniques to metal finishing.

Thanks, I will keep that in mind. I pretty much know what I am going to do, it's just going to take work. Frankly, I enjoy this part of the build the most.

You do ...can I ship 6476 to you ???? LOL

Today I stripped my car completely of all its bolt on parts .. the car in on the rotissere and now the metal work starts ... only minor problem I have is aligning the flairs ... I have to mock up the suspension and need the wheels I'm going to use to get them right ??

Ok gotta get wheels ASAP.

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
You do ...can I ship 6476 to you ???? LOL

Today I stripped my car completely of all its bolt on parts .. the car in on the rotissere and now the metal work starts ... only minor problem I have is aligning the flairs ... I have to mock up the suspension and need the wheels I'm going to use to get them right ??

Ok gotta get wheels ASAP.

Ron

I think the flairs will kind of align themselves but I think it prudent to check them as well. I bet they all fall into place. Lot of work ahead!

Got the rear left fender done today.

I had a thought ... maybe I can make up a set of spacers to simulate the new rims and tires by using my old ones ... then mock up the suspension and get started .. I will ask around one of my friends have to have a set of tire and rims around.

I tell you the only think I'm a little gun shy about ..is the electrical wiring .. we very carfully removed the harness .. and its in great shape .. but putting it back ... its not my thing ... LOL

Ron

LOL, I yanked mine out with NO RESERVE!:



I am actually thinking of designing one from scratch with the fuse box and rellays in the front trunk. I plan (at this time) to recess my battery in the front trunk. I am making plenty of other changes as well. I cut the light bar as I wanted it removed. I will probably rob sopmehting from the junk yard (or ebay) for individual lights motors. I will probably cut the front main squar structural bar and rotate it 180 dgrees to make more room for a drop shoot hood which I am going to try to make out of scratch; aluminum. I want to duct all the air out of the top like the Gt-40. And I want to....and on and on...