351c EFI Manifold

Here's the guys ....

Custom Performance Racing

Mass-flo welds bungs to an Edelbrock manifold, if it helps. They also run the ford computer with a modified GM mass-air sensor.

There are thread in injector bungs around here somewhere.
Maybe at IPS. Maybe not, but they are around.

http://www.ipsco.org/index.htm

You could set any manifold up with them and then use the Edelbrock 351w fuel rails.

You can use anyones throttlebody on top, including Edelbrocks which is pretty nice.

A single plenum intake will probably work best on with the FI.

Here is a manifold that no one seems to know who made. Judging by the port runners it may be for 2v heads and if that is so then chances are it is Australian.

If anyone knows I'd appreciate hearing about it.

That CPR doesn't make the cleveland version anymore unfortunately George.

Here is what I'm looking to do, see video below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaJG2fi-TuA

I would dump the elbow to the side though since I have a cowl hood large enough to put spacer on the single plane and clear the fuel rails.

Problem is I want to put in some High Port SVO Heads on, not sure if they have headers for that application without going custom. I think Kooks, Accufab, or Hedmann might have something, but not positive. I think I saw an a351 intake awhile ago with injector bungs, but they might have been for N2O. I'll have to see who makes rails that work with the CHI or Parker intakes with the bungs, or just have a machine shop weld bungs onto any intake I want.

The last post doesn't seem to gel with the original in not wanting to spend big $$.

I think if you start adding SVO heads you are in for a much bigger (read $$) project, not only is the intake manifold choice more limited, you will require those raised exhaust port headers.

Many people epoxy injector bungs, but it should be relatively cheap to have them welded by a competent shop. Most cast aluminum manifolds don't have a lot of extra meat for welding either, so this really is a job for competent shop who has done it before and can set them all correctly at an appropriate angle and depth.

I had this guy www.hotrodsolutions.net bookmarked from a recommendation somewhere (I forget where) but looking through his photo's would appear to be pretty competent.

Julian

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Here is a manifold that no one seems to know who made. Judging by the port runners it may be for 2v heads and if that is so then chances are it is Australian.

If anyone knows I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Doug my man, are you sitting comfortably......

That is an Ultraflow Air Research manifold and they are out of Brisbane Australia. It is available in both 2V and 4V versions.

Ultraflow Air Research
33 Spine St
Sumner QLD 4074, Australia
Tel +61 413 053 099

Sold via Clarko's Performance in Brisbane, here's their You Tube marketing video and catalog page......

Clarkos You Tube

Clarkos Catalog Page

Julian

Thanks matie!

Love the music. Keep boogie-ing around the room!

Anybody here speak Aussie?

Anyone know if there are any manifolds that fit the A3,B3, C3 aluminum Motorsport heads BESIDES the Motorsport manifolds?

For instance, are the CHI manifolds all by themselves for the CHI heads or would they fit...maybe?

George? You out there? You happen to know?

I haven't had a set of the CHI heads in my hands to play around with otherwise...I wouldn't be asking these questions.

Well its becoming pretty obvious I won't be able to do this on a budget unless I go with stock heads where the intake manifolds are more plentiful. Might have to be patient about finding a manifold. I've also had recommendations for Wilson Manifolds and Bennett racing do the welding work and use their rails.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Anyone know if there are any manifolds that fit the A3,B3, C3 aluminum Motorsport heads BESIDES the Motorsport manifolds?

For instance, are the CHI manifolds all by themselves for the CHI heads or would they fit...maybe?

George? You out there? You happen to know?

I haven't had a set of the CHI heads in my hands to play around with otherwise...I wouldn't be asking these questions.

I tried to search out some of Dan Jones previous posts with little success, has some old forum content been archived or deleted? I'm sure in the past Dan has coverd off on head and intake manifold selection/compatibility. It's probably repeated somewhere on the 351C forum or De Tomaso list.

George, a lot of forums have a 'sticky' for topics that come up with regularity or as repository for reference technical information..... maybe there's something in that for the future here?

Julian

Dans intake manifold page is on Pantera Place but is old information and includes nothing about the new stuff like AFR, Edelbrock, Chi or Blue thunder.

I caught a glimpse of a CHI head and they looked like copies, or to those that feel insulted by that statement, very, very similar to the Motorsort heads with the raised ports. That's why I asked.

I actually haven't seen any postings of information on the dyno results of any of the new Dan Jones dyno project. I have seen some old information from him such as the flow rates of the iron 4v heads.

That's about all.

Blue Thunder certainly do two vesrions of their high rise port manifold (one is a Pantera specific low profile to fit below the screen).

CHI have a long list of manifolds for 3V applications, but don't address other H/R head comnpatibility on their website.

http://www.chiheads.com.au/3v_manifolds.php

We need someone who has the 3V heads to lay a H/R gasket over the ports and take a photo. I have a set of CHI 4V here still in the box, but they won't tell us anything.

As an aside I see CHI now do a 3V 400M spider manifold for those guys working on 400 installs. They also have new Kaase CHI heads that flow a whopping 400cfm at 0.75" lift.

Julian

Maybe the answer is to look in the Fel-Pro catalog for the intake gaskets?

The Motorsports are by themselves. What gaskets or who's gaskets do the CHI take? That listing I haven't been able to find.

Update on the Ultraflow manifold;

Cost $2500AUD
Actual Dimensions – 650mm (L) x 300mm (W) x 270mm (H), weighs 9 kg
Injectors, TPS or fuel rails not included
Manifold can be turned 180 degrees for Pantera use.
Clarko's have 1 in stock.


Julian

quote:

Originally posted by Joules5:
... Cost $2500AUD ...

Yes. That's what the price is/

Edelbrock just introduced this line but is Chevy only. Their price is $437.

Too bad. At that price it offers no real alternative/ Back to the drawing board.

Once again, Mass-flo sells a EFI kit for the Cleveland engines.

I see the alternative could be a 351w swap, or some serious modifications to a TFS manifold.

I don't understand your post. Is Mass Flow the name of a company that makes a unit like this?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
... Anyone know if there are any manifolds that fit the A3,B3, C3 aluminum Motorsport heads BESIDES the Motorsport manifolds ... George? You out there? You happen to know?

Doug, its been a while since I've held a 4V intake gasket up to an A3 head, and I no longer have an A3 head to experiment with, I gave my last one to a nice guy in New York. I forget if the roof of the A3 intake port is the same height as the roof of the 4V intake port, or if it is raised. "If" the roof of the A3 intake port is the same height as the roof of the 4V intake port, then a Parker 4V Funnel Web would mate with the A3 head with very little modification. Both would essentially be 4V ports with the floors filled in.

Lets see if I can help you understand the 3V port configuration. If you ever held a 2V intake gasket behind a 4V intake gasktet, lined up the bolt holes etc, you would find the 2V port sits in the lower right hand corner of the 4V port, with the port floors at the same level. Now imagine raising the 2V gasket vertically about 3/8" until the roof of the 2V port is exactly the same height as the roof of the 4V port, the 2V port is essentially in the upper right hand corner of the 4V port. That is the location of the original 218/225 cc 3V port. Since then CHI has introduced variations of that concept with smaller ports raised a little bit higher (185 cc & 208 cc).

CHI also designed the 3V head to work with 2V intake manifolds, because when CHI introduced the heads they hadn't began making their own manifolds yet. To do this they made the 3V head just a little bit wider than a standard 2V/4V Cleveland head. That way, when a 2V intake was lowered in the "Vee" formed by the two heads, the manifold sat a little bit higher than normal and the runners of the 2V manifold aligned themselves with the ports in the 3V head. There would be a big gap between the manifold & the lifter valley rails, so CHI sold spacers to fill in that gap. The bolt holes in the 2V manifold also required a little bit of filing to make it all work. Now that CHI makes their own manifolds, they don't advertise the fact that 2V manifolds would fit.

The ports of the C302 SVO head are roughly the same size as a 2V port (a little smaller if I remember correctly) but the roof of the C302 port is raised about 3/8" higher than the roof of a 4V port. The manifolds designed for the 185 cc or 208 cc versions of the CHI 3V head may be a close match to a C302 port, EXCEPT for the fact that they are designed for the narrower "Vee" created by the wider CHI 3V head. So CHI 3V manifolds will not work without some massaging by a welder and/or machinist.
________________________________________________________________________

quote:

Originally posted by Joules5:
... George, a lot of forums have a 'sticky' for topics that come up with regularity or as repository for reference technical information .....

The Groupee software has the ability to "feature" a topic, and you've seen me use that feature from time to time, like I have the thread about Tod Buttermore's block project featured in the Community News Forum. About a month ago I decided to start featuring certain topics that I thought would be of general interest to most new owners, or those that are frequently asked questions. If you look, you'll find I recently featured a thread in the Engine Forum about building a 400 cubic inch Cleveland using all Ford parts. I will eventually do the same thing with a thread about the lubrication system, short block preparation, 4V intake manifolds, Duraspark ignition installation and a suggested 400 BHP street build-up. I'll also eventually feature threads in the Chassis Forum about suggested chassis modifications and wheel & tire selection issues. Those are the topics I have thought of so far, and I am always happy to read the suggestions of others.

-G

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I don't understand your post. Is Mass Flow the name of a company that makes a unit like this?

Mass-flo 351c System

Check it out.

OK. Got it now. Thanks.

...and thanks GP. That would tend to explain why I can't find a listing for the CHI heads intake gaskets.

quote:

Originally posted by Corey Price:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I don't understand your post. Is Mass Flow the name of a company that makes a unit like this?

Mass-flo 351c System

Check it out.

The picture in their 351C ad is a Windsor engine.

I thank everyone for their input here.

I understand that a lot of these things are about taste. The Mass-flow is just not my taste. To me that type of set up is pure street rod or more correctly a rat rod, which in my eyes a Pantera is not.

I think that the reason people were attracted the the Australian manifold was because of the appearance of sophistication on a sophisticated looking vehicle.

How the manufacturer can justify $2500 just for the manifold is beyond me. I'd build a sheet metal manifold before I would go there.

The chances are that Edelbrock is never going to go to the expense of tooling for a Cleveland for their new series. A 351w probably yes.

However in my own particular case I'm not pushed into a corner on this. I'm already set up to go with a Weber 48ida manifold and planning on converting the carbs to throttle bodies.

Personally I like the comp/retro look of the Gp.3 and 4 cars. This all fits right into those plans.

It is disappointing that the Australian unit is so expensive but the fact that he has one in stock is probably significant. It's probably the only one ever made. He certainly has no grasp on the fact that there might be a market and that there might be other products available, at least eventually. That's not my concern though nor am I his.


Oh well. Thanks for everyones input.

Ohhhhhhhh Doug ......

Tease, tease .....



That my friend is a modified Wieand tunnel ram.

At least three Pantera owners have successfully modified an EFI base from a 351W to fit the Cleveland block, and have thousands of highway miles on the assembly. The key is to find a really patient TIG-welder with a band-saw and lots of time, and mock up on a spare block & heads. They also started with an aftermarket assembly that fits under a stock engine screen. The tops can be shaved a little for clearance.

This is an example of what Jack is referring to ....



This work was done by Jim Murch. He employed a Trick Flow EFI manifold (upper and lower), the lower half has been modified to fit onto 351C 4V heads. The work required was extensive, much more extensive than modifying a tunnel ram. The manifold bolt holes of a 351W are all verticle, only the 4 center manifold bolts are verticle on a 351C. The 351W manifold bolt holes must be re-drilled to work on a 351C. The rear valley rail must be modified. Material had to be welded around the flanges for the larger 4V ports and then milled flat. Jim also spent time opening up the manifold runners to make them closer in size to the 4V ports. Jim's work looks absolutely first rate, the finished product doesn't look like a modified manifold, it looks like it was out-of-the-box.

Keep in mind, Trick Flow has developed a 351C 2V EFI manifold lower that makes all this work unecessary, its a direct bolt-on. And it mates with Trick Flows 351W EFI upper manifolds. Hopefully Trick Flow will make the flanges tall enough that the EFI lower will work with both 2V & 4V heads; this is what Edelbrock did with their new RPM Air Gap intake.

-G

No doubt 2500 is a hefty sum, at that price I would rather have Hogans build me a custom sheetmetal intake.

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
Ohhhhhhhh Doug ......

Tease, tease .....



That my friend is a modified Wieand tunnel ram.

These are all nice. The Wieand is my favorite. It really is a cheaper and therefore to me at least a better way to go. I don't see where a front or rear exit is going to fit under any kind of screen in the case of the Pantera, the Mustang style center mount throttle body would be the way to go.

I thought Edelbrock had mentioned they were going to make a lower for a Cleveland about two years ago?

In my case GP, to adapt a 4v intake to a "Motorsport" head, the lower portion of the intake ports needs to be filled on the intake manifold. Those heads all are missing material to the head that would make filling the ports necessary. I suppose you could make an adapter plate? I think I have those still hanging on the wall in my shop?

I still love my A3's and whenever I read Dan Jones comments he still compares the flow of new heads to his C302B's and A3's. Interesting to me that I have never seen the B351 heads mentioned anywhere.

I guess those must be the rarest of the series? They were supposed to be bolt ons for 351 size engines.

Thanks for the info on the Chi heads. It has been hard for me to find tech info on them.

For me my plan still remains to switch the Webers on my A3 Weber intake to throttle bodies. It has just been sidetracked by lack of capital but will get there eventually.

Actually that isn't all bad because it enables small improvements in technology to appear and be developed by someone else and saves a lot of re-inventing the wheel
stuff.

$2500 for just the manifold is just ridiculous. It isn't a perfect manifold at all. It is still kind of unfinished on the top where you can see it on the Pantera. Someone should get a grasp on reality. Maybe it should be me?