351C Engine parts-detailed plan

jobefr,


I would recommend the book: Rebuilding your Ford V8 by Tom Monroe. It is an excellent reference and how to do it book for working on and rebuilding the Ford Cleveland engine. It should be available both new and used through Amazon.com and other sources.


Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

The world is soooo small. I know Tom Monroe and we get together a few times a year at car gatherings. He's got a NICE ERA GT40.

quote:

Originally posted by C. Engles:
jobefr,


I would recommend the book: Rebuilding your Ford V8 by Tom Monroe. It is an excellent reference and how to do it book for working on and rebuilding the Ford Cleveland engine. It should be available both new and used through Amazon.com and other sources.


Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

quote:

Originally posted by jobefr:...
Another thing, before bringing it to me, he noticed that the engine overheated sometimes. I've made a lot of researches and it seems to be common on these vehicules, for many differents reasons....So could you tell me what is typically done to fix this problem ? What to I have to advise my client to do after giving him back his engine ?
Thanks a lot

Cooling issue summary
1 The Cleveland’s unique thermostats bypass design, improper thermostat allowing recirculation.
2 the Pantera’s level engine mounting, opposed to the normal “nose up” prevents block venting
3 the Pantera’s coolant tube length require water pump to provide head along with flow
4 the Pantera’s original radiator baffling allowing leak by
5 the Pantera’s radiator discharge connection position allowing air binding
6 The Pantera’s original fans providing marginal air flow.
7 the Pantera’s location of the pressure cap on the discharge opposed to the normal suction side of the pump
8 the Pantera’s original temperature gauge “near maximum” scaling indication of “normal”
While not truly “overheating” related, a couple other coolant quirks to be aware of would be
9 the location of the temperature sensing element not being representative of the block temperature
10 the original fan control logic as a result of changing the original radiator baffling from vertical to horizontal



You can find all of the above discribed in detail in the sticky posting
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...50045562/m/346105744

quote:

Originally posted by jobefr:
Hi everyone !
I'm in Belgium and...

Is the car located in Belgium too, and how familiar is the owner with Pantera's?

quote:

Rebuilding your Ford V8 by Tom Monroe

Two enthusiastic thumbs up!



Available on Amazon for $19 and Barnes & Noble for $15
http://www.amazon.com/How-Rebu...ngines/dp/0895860368
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/...25&k_clickid=3x23125

As for your other questions...
Oil pump - Go with a standard 351C oil pump (blueprinted if possible). Do NOT use a high pressure or high volume oil pump.

Overheating - There are several things that will cause a Pantera to overheat, including combinations of the following:

• Bleed the cooling system - An improperly filled and bled cooling system will allow pockets of air to remain in the radiator and heads. This reduces cooling capacity, causes hot spots, and leads to overheating. Jack the rear of the car as high as it will go, fill, open the radiator bleed and make sure no air remains. Then start the car and run for a few minutes, then repeat the procedure. Do this 3-4 times to make sure there is no more air to bleed from the radiator or rear cooling tank.
  
• Radiator - Must be properly baffled to force coolant to make each pass before exiting. All vendors sell correct radiators.
  
• Water pump - Use a quality high volume water pump, such as a Flow Kooler, Edelbrock, or Weiand. You need a strong water pump to maintain sufficient head pressure as your moving the coolant over 10 feet through pipes.
  
• Correct thermostat - Most auto parts stores list the same part number for the 351C and 351W thermostat. A 351W thermostat will not seal against the block-off plate in the block, therefore allowing water th circulate only within the block without ever going to the radiator. See this link for more details: http://www.banzairunnerpantera...dates_thermostat.htm

Oil Pan - You should absolutely install a baffled road race oil pan. These cars have such high cornering and acceleration capabilities that all the oil in the stock pan can run to one side leaving the oil pickup dry. This tends to happen when the engine needs the oil the most - under hard acceleration or cornering. A baffled high capacity pan will protect against this. Aviad, Armando and Kevko make quality pans to fit the 351C in a Pantera. Kevko is probably the best value at present.

What else in the engine will be replaced? Will this be a budget build using the existing crank, rods and pistons? If so, rod and main bolts should be replaced with quality ARP fasteners. Or, will this be a modified build? I'm happy to share my build sheet and parts list, but would like to point out items that may or may not be applicable to your goals for this build.

Garth, might be different on your Car, but I found that only by raising the FRONT on my Car I was able to bleed it completely from Air. I did it with the Engine running initially, then stopped the Engine and bleed the Radiator, then ran it again and repeated it a few times.

quote:

I found that only by raising the FRONT on my Car I was able to bleed it completely from Air.

Interesting! I've never heard of anyone jacking the front to bleed their cooling system. Would seem to make sense given that air in the block and heads should run to the front toward the thermostat housing and top coolant tube which routes to the cooling tank. My procedure has worked well, running the car while the rear is jacked, but following the first drive after bleeding the cooling system I do pull into my driveway nose first, which is at an incline, and check/top-off again if needed.

Garth,
I also have a rather steep driveway. Hadn't thought about using it burp the system.

I am guilty of cheating because I completely modified the Cooling system so that it actually WORKS compared to the way it was designed in Modena (occupational hazard) I cancelled the swirl Tank and used the Collector Tank as an expansion Tank with Air in the top and Coolant in the half bottom. On the Tube that sits on top of the Thermostat I welded a Stud that connects with the top of the expansion Tank and allows potential Air to escape the system and collect in top of Expansion Tank. At the Bottom of the Tank I welded 2 Studs, one that connect to the suction side of Water Pump and the other connect the return line from the Heater Core. This way the Engine is self bleeding. The Tube exiting from the Thermostat goes uninterrupted to the Radiator (no swirl Tank etc) On the 1/4" Stud under the pressure Cap I connected a traditional collector (plastic) reservoir which is mounted low on the Frame behind the Firewall. (thinking of moving it to a place behind the right rear Wheel to minimize risk of spilling in from of Tyre, but so far not an issue)

This is close to how modern engine cooling systems are designed. Never had an issue with overheating btw.

on a note: any cooling system with Air pockets or trapped Air will potentially overheat as an Air Pocket prevents fluid circulation (just as on your central heating at home)

Here is a photo that explains the principle BUT I have since Changed the plastic expansion Tank to the Steel Tank previously mentioned (old collector Tank modified)

(btw the PCV valve was only temporarily capped during build just before anyone comments on that )

When you purchase a new oil pump the worst thing to do is to take it from the box and bolt it directly onto the engine. The first thing to do upon removing it from the box is to take it apart, inspect the internals for debris and burrs. De-burr the parts if necessary, clean it, lubricate it and reassemble it. Use Loctite on the bolts that hold the cover to the pump body.

There are many things can cause over-heating in any car such as old coolant and/or scale on the radiator tubes. Scale in the Pantera's radiator is impossible to see with the eye. Electric fans can have gummed-up motor bearings, worn-out motor brushes, and poor electrical connections which cause them to run slowly. Don't neglect to check for those things. There are also 5 items particular to the Pantera I advise every owner to address: the early coolant pump suction tubing (effects cars prior to chassis ~3600) which collapses at low rpm, the early radiator with its vertical baffle (effects cars prior to chassis ~5400) which allows excessive coolant to bypass the radiator, air collecting in the radiator, insufficient low rpm coolant flow and the incorrect thermostat. Those chassis numbers are approximates, and they err on the side of safety.

When filling the cooling system with fresh coolant raising the front end of the Pantera allows air trapped in the engine to escape and air trapped in the right hand under-car pipe to flow to the radiator. Raising the rear of the car allows air trapped in the left hand under-car pipe to flow to the engine ... thus requiring the engine to be purged again by raising the front of the car. Once filled and purged, a Pantera operated under normal conditions shall be driven up and down steep driveways and hills, thus the purging process takes place continuously while driving the car, but periodic manual bleeding of air from the radiator is still required (unless the recovery tank is modified to perform as a head tank, and the radiator is vented to the head tank as Jan mentioned above).

Thanks for all of your answers

quote:

Originally posted by C. Engles:
I would recommend the book: Rebuilding your Ford V8 by Tom Monroe. It is an excellent reference and how to do it book for working on and rebuilding the Ford Cleveland engine. It should be available both new and used through Amazon.com and other sources.

Thank you ^^ I'll see if I order it

quote:

Originally posted by garth66:
What else in the engine will be replaced? Will this be a budget build using the existing crank, rods and pistons? If so, rod and main bolts should be replaced with quality ARP fasteners. Or, will this be a modified build? I'm happy to share my build sheet and parts list, but would like to point out items that may or may not be applicable to your goals for this build.

I'm gonna keep the existing parts, juste cleaning the cylinders (rust inside) and changing the damaged oil pump :


Do I necessary have to ad an oil radiator if I change the oil pan ?
There is rust inside the Edelbrock water pump, can I just clean it or change it ?
The cooling system has been bleeded before the owner gave us the engine, but I don't know if it has been done properly...

I'll change the oil pan for a 10qt I think, first reason is the one you described and second it is pushed inwards and that caused damages on the inside (and then on the oil pump).
If I sum up all your answers, when I'll finish rebuilding the engine, I have to advise the owner to see if it's a 351C thermostat and not a 351w, to change the radiator and the fans, to check the position of the temperature sensor, and to bleed the cooling system again with the procedure you described, is that seems to be correct ?

I would suggest you tell him to join this Internet Community, as well as POCA (Pantera Owners Club of America).

POCA has a Quarterly Magazine on members cars & events, and a monthly technical newsletter (this month focused on doing a top end upgrade to the 351C, and on the differences in 351C heads.

POCA Membership can be easily accomplished by going to this website...

http://www.poca.com/index.php/club/join-poca



Good Luck!

Rocky

And if you haven't read it already, George posted an excellent primer on the 351C that covers many aspects of building a Cleveland. It's a good read, albeit long.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...50045562/m/319104265

And here's another thread chock full of valuable information and part numbers:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...801035556#4801035556

George leaves little to the imagination. He essentially tells you how to do everything but turn the wrenches.

Those recommendations are going to give you a very reliable Cleveland right in the 500 to 550 hp range.

If you value the dependability of the ZF and you want more, tread lightly. You are really sitting on the dependable limit with it.

Very nice documentation on building an impressive Cleveland. Nice job George.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
George leaves little to the imagination. He essentially tells you how to do everything but turn the wrenches.

Those recommendations are going to give you a very reliable Cleveland right in the 500 to 550 hp range. George is like the EF Hutton commercial...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MXqb1a3Apg

If you value the dependability of the ZF and you want more, tread lightly. You are really sitting on the dependable limit with it.

Very nice documentation on building an impressive Cleveland. Nice job George.

Listening to "George" is like the E.F. Hutton commercial ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MXqb1a3Apg

Did I miss something in the 2 pgs of posts here as to what engine you have? Because those are NOT 351-C oil pump parts pictured with the scratches & nicks. All Ford V-8s since about 1965 used gearotor pumps, not spur-gear pumps. The gear looks like a 9-tooth BBC pump piece- or maybe BB Buick.

And if you do replace a Ford gearotor pump (outer ring and inner 4-lobe gear), I suggest you also replace the stock 7" long mild steel hex-end pump driveshaft with an aftermarket 4130-steel shaft, and replace the multilayer spring-pin in the distributor gear with a thick-wall roll-pin, or a home-made dowel pin made of tool steel. This included high-dollar aftermarket distributors, too. They ALL include the wimpy breakable stock spring-pin.

definitely not a 351C oil pump, I wonder what else got mixed up?

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:


And if you do replace a Ford gearotor pump
(outer ring and inner 4-lobe gear), I suggest you also replace the stock 7" long mild steel hex-end pump driveshaft with an aftermarket 4130-steel shaft, and replace the multilayer spring-pin in the distributor gear with a thick-wall roll-pin, or a home-made dowel pin made of tool steel. This included high-dollar aftermarket distributors, too. They ALL include the wimpy breakable stock spring-pin.

Bosswrench Hi, so you mean this pin see picture? TX

Thats the one! Thin layers of coiled steel don't take shock-loads well and progressively crack the layers. Worst case is when only the load-side cracks and the gear rotates about 20 degrees retarded but still allows the engine to run (poorly). Retarded timing from this will drive one crazy trying to find the cause- damage is only visible if you pull the distributor and look at BOTH ends of the pin. One end may be missing. The cracked pieces are down in the pan waiting to destroy the pump or extension shaft- maybe both. Mallory, Accell and several other mfgrs all use the same undersized stock pin.

again, the pic does not show a Ford 351C distributor / gear

looks like chevy & matches the oil pump?

Are we sure this is really a 351C?

It would be interesting to see a picture of the engine.

Rocky