Bigger & Faster Motors: What’s the Point ?

Coz,
that is a great question. I agree, if you track the car or otherwise compete in performance venues, more power to you. I detuned mine for the driving I do. It still has a boatload of power and I actually pass up a gas station or two.

Of course it's not how big it is, it is how you use it.

Can one be too rich or too skinny? Likewise one can never have too much horsepower. Status my man, nothing else just pecking order.

Its like the nuke missle thing...its not always using it but knowing you have it and being able to use it if the need ever arises!

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Can one be too rich or too skinny? Likewise one can never have too much horsepower. Status my man, nothing else just pecking order.

I'm sorry DT, your transcription is garbled...did you say pecking order or pecker order?

You can all say what you like,but if you got the power,you are going to use it.It's just knowing when to use it that matters.

My 2 cents ... You build with Horsepower range and budget in mind. The 351C is not enough power for the street .. I'm not getting passed by a new Vette. On the track .. its hammer time ... and thats when you really see and enjoy a Pantera. But your correct I hear of people building High Horsepower motors and they cant turn a wrench. Anything above stock is going to require either a big wallet or a lot of experience with motors.

I bought my Pantera to enjoy it in all the aspects including enjoying what it was built for ... the ROAD. So drive it like it was made to drive ... it needs more Horsepower then a stock 351C.

Ron

Exactly .. its not how big it is its how you use it

Ever since I was a small boy, style, exhaust note, and how much horsepower a car had, was all I was interested in. My father was one of the first southern california hot rodders way back in the late thirties. He and his brothers all cruise the streets of LA and the beaches when it was easy and fun to do. He chopped the top of a 27 T six inches and installed a overhead valve head on that old engine. That T could hit 60 to 70 mph. Maybe its in the genes. Something gets passed on to our children that is deeply imbedded into our makeup, I don't know. But I do know, getting pressed into a drivers seat by awesome accelleration is something I never tire of.

Cool guys, love the impute.
I'm not sure either really.

I know that when I built my current motor, a 351C to 460 at the flywheel, it was fast enough then. Now, it seems slow to me, but yet not to those that ride in it. They think it's fast enough.

Yet, I'm considering putting in a 351W built to right at 600 hp next summer.

So at what point is fast, fast enough.
Granted, I am tracking my car, I do drive over the speed limit, power out of corners and drive faster than the flow of traffic on many occasions, or at a minimum tuck in behind someone that is moving along.

One of the things I love doing most is hammering it to pass a slower moving vehicle and then settling back down to a flowing pace. Which was at that point not only speeding, but also an exibition of speed.

We're all guilty of driving over the speed limit, exibition of speed or some other violation when driving our Pantera's at some point. Those that say they aren't are liars & only fooling themselves.

I know I have been on many runs with many other Pantera owners from all over the US, all doing the same thing, going fast and zipping through traffic. Been there and done that many times over the last 6 years. Not to mention the piror 30 years of driving Porsches, Ferrari's and Lamborghini's.

We look at video's of others driving Pantera's fast and think it's great. But when we see other cars going just as fast and doing the same things, we think it's stupid and reckless.

What's up with that ?
Do as I say, not as I do ?

There's nothing like the feel of raw power and acceleration. Why else would we drive and pursue what we drive the way we do....

I may be 54 years old, but I ain't driving Miss Daisy in my Pantera.

Ahhhh, boys and their toys. Isn't life grand

Ahhh, so it's all about the money I can spend, rather than how I actually use it that makes ones car & ego bigger & better than someone else's.

What a waste. It's like kissing your sister.

All show and no go.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Can one be too rich or too skinny? Likewise one can never have too much horsepower. Status my man, nothing else just pecking order.

Its more about how you use it. A high performance, in terms of power and handling, automobile can keep you out of trouble as well. Just because it can go 150 doesn't mean it has to. Sometimes the ability to rapidly accelerate can make a difference between a close call and an accident. Much of which depends on the driver!!

Might seem kind of stupid, but more power IS more challenging... And thus, more fun. My GT40 has 410 HP and in spite of the fact (?!) that I am a superbly talented driver (LOL), it will take a LOT of track practice for me to be able to enjoy all it can offer. If the car had only 200HP, it would be an adequate daily driver (like my RX-8), but wouldn’t allow me to realize just how crappy a driver I really am. So, yes Jim, you NEED that 600HP monster-motor.

Personally, the reason I like more horsepower is the way the vehicle accelerates out of the turns. In Southern California we have a lot of canyon roads with great curves. I have more fun driving a well handling, high horsepower car than I do my SUV. Surprise? I am not one to drive excessively over the speed limit but I do like pushing it through and out of the turns. Anyway, that's my take on it. Wes

Hi Guys
Haven't been on for while but I've had some family problems,my father sick!
Just read about COZ'S delema and I must say get the 600 HORSES.....
Dennis

quote:

Originally posted by Coz:
What’s the point of having more power and the expense it costs to have it if you don’t use it now and then?

Mine's bigger than yours!!! Bragging rights!
HP dyno claims, lumpy idle, expense, etc. One-upmanship. Again, this applies to those that don't need/use the additional power, and then again also to some who possibly do.

Mine's mostly stock with 102,000 miles. When I rebuild it, it will be mildly modified, becuase I think the current performance could be better for the street. I don't like to see Subaru's and turbo Honda's next to me. But I won't sacrifice driveability! I've seen too many Panteras that now have a monster motor, but are hardly driveable on the street. No fun in my opinion!

Cheers!
Garth

Hey Dennis,
Sorry to hear about your father. I hope he's doing and getting better !

George and I have been talking about building my next motor, most likely going to be right around 550 at the flywheel when it's all said and done.

Want to keep it street drivable and not tear up the ZF. As we all know, the ZF costs as much as
a motor to replace, which is totally rediculious.

Isn't the point to accelerate briefly at a stop light next to a Corvette just to see him in your rear view mirror, let off then act lke you never saw him as he catches up.

Yes, gary you are correct. Just yesterday I was about to exit when a Hemi powered 300 practicly stopped next to me. Instead of turning. I kicked it down to 4th and watched him fade back into the past. I just took the next exit.

LOL,,,,just couldn't resist huh...LOL

quote:

Originally posted by lastpushbutton:
Yes, gary you are correct. Just yesterday I was about to exit when a Hemi powered 300 practicly stopped next to me. Instead of turning. I kicked it down to 4th and watched him fade back into the past. I just took the next exit.

quote:

We look at video's of others driving Pantera's fast and think it's great. But when we see other cars going just as fast and doing the same things, we think it's stupid and reckless.

What's up with that ?
Do as I say, not as I do ?

I am sorry Mr. Coz but you would be very dissapointed in me. I have never had my Pantera over 100 miles per hour. I suppose you would consider me a fuddy duddy and I guess I am. But I would still love to have a car that could pull its front wheels off the ground as it shot to 60 in three seconds.

Coz,

We dont consider you a fuddy duddy... if you wish for your car to hang the wheels... we have similiar interest ... except for our top speed !! LOL

Ron

Sorry I meant DETOM .. LOL

MY QUESTION IS, AS SOMEONE ELSE ONCE SAID, : HOW MUCH HORSEPOWER CAN I HAVE AND STILL GO TO HEAVEN ???

SPEED cost money, how fa$$$t do you want to go?

I agree Mark. Racing on track needs real HP. It also needs a lot of cash as it eats up tires, brakes and makes for long days and nights under the car.

Racing on the street for a few seconds at a time, costs nothing and gives me great pleasure to torque some doctor, business hero or dotcom wimp into oblivion.

I like to think that they limp home in their ultra expensive exotics and wonder WTF happened as they go to sleep. Then they wake up and call their dealers in the morning and tell them that some kit car made them and their $400k investment look stupid.

Of course I pretend not to notice when those 700 hp rice rockets roll up beside me. I fake-talk on my cell, oblivious to their presence.

It's better to give than take.

quote:

Originally posted by deeb:
...It's better to give than take...

it is more blessed to give than to receive, ahem

David, I've come to the conclusion you have a phobia for rice rockets. LOL ....

Now that's funny.

quote:

Originally posted by george scott:
MY QUESTION IS, AS SOMEONE ELSE ONCE SAID, : HOW MUCH HORSEPOWER CAN I HAVE AND STILL GO TO HEAVEN ???

Never disappoiinted in you DeTom...
But you know, the Pantera begins at 100....

Personally Mark, I think there could have been better choices than the ZF. Specially when it comes to over all cost and parts availability for the ZF.

I think the Porsche box, G-50 or G-52 would have been a better choice. There are a ton of them out there, The box themselves are 1/2 the price, parts are 1/2 the cost and there are 100 times more distibutors for the Porsche boxes & parts comparied to the ZF which has 1.

I hate being held hostage to the ZF and if it wasn't so time consuming, expensive and wouldn't screw up the value of my car, I would have converted mine long ago and said goodbye to the ZF and the costs associated with it.

When a gearbox costs more than a decent motor for a street car, I think there's a problem with that picture.

But, that's just my opinion......

[/QUOTE]
TRUE Coz a 351C engine does not come a live untill 3000 RPM so now we can thank DeTomaso for putting a ZF behine the Cleveland!

Then we could

quote:

I think the Porsche box, G-50 or G-52 would have been a better choice.

Interesting. And then we could easily fit the automatic from the Porsche 928. And how cool would that be!

LOL....
I wouldn't go quite that far either... LOL.

AUTOMATIC...! HOW CAN YOU SPEEK SUCH WORDS..![/QUOTE]

Just seeing if you all were listening. %^))

The Pantera needs the ZF. It's the exotic part that makes it so unique. A Porsche transaxle would would be way too kit-Kar like for my tastes.

60% of the people that look at a Pantera don't even know what the car is, let alone what a ZF is.

The only thing exotic about the ZF is repair and replacement cost.

But you are right, anything other than a ZF in a Pantera just wouldn't be right. Which is why mine is still there.

quote:

The Pantera needs the ZF. It's the exotic part that makes it so unique. A Porsche transaxle would would be way too kit-Kar like for my tastes.

Consider that the ZF was the transmission of the GT40, and the Mangusta.
It was state of the art at the time and is one of the Ford threads of influence through the fabric.
It makes sense that it was the transmission of choice in '69. For the period it was an exotic even if that term didn't exist yet.
As far as no onw knowing what a Pantera or a ZF is, the US authorized ZF rebuilder in Rockland doesn't even know what it is.

It does not seem to matter if I am at a car show or at the track, the one fact among all car guys is that we are all different. One guy will love his 100% stock car, while another will modify his like crazy, and love it. Isn't this what really makes the car hobby great. I can love racing and showing my car, while the next guy can love just washing and driving his car. Another guy can love driving fast, while a second guy will never will never go over the speed limit. Bob will mbuild an all out racing engine for his street car while Gary considers a tune up the most modification he would ever consider. There is room for all of us to enjoy this great hobby! I would like to encourage more car guys to try your car out on the track. There are all kinds of events for this, from full out racing to street car classes, to time trials or even things like Solo racing where you are the only car on the track racing for time around pylons. All of these are great outlets to enjoy your car, and go fast and no tickets! Also usually much safer. Please consider the P.I. track event in Phoenix, Sept. 30- Oct. 1. This is a great chance for you guys who have never had your cars on a track to see how much fun it really is, under safe conditions, and a very resonable price!

quote:

60% of the people that look at a Pantera don't even know what the car is, let alone what a ZF is.

So turn this into an opportunity to sell the desirability of the car. I always say this was the trans used in the LeMans winning GT40s***, the Maserati Bora, an exotic that cost almost 4 times more than the Pantera, and the race bred BMW M1.

That's pretty good company that most people have heard of! It should get the "Wow" reaction.

***I know that they were not in the actual winning GT40s but they were the spec trans in a GT40 - a small lie in support of the truth. %^))

The biggest difference between driving on the street and driving on the track (road course) is that on the track, either your gas pedal is on the floor, or your brake pedal is.

Keeping your foot all the way down on the gas pedal for even twenty seconds without lifting is difficult in a 120-horsepower vehicle, never mind 500. (Try this in your Civic first. Also, the freeway at 4:00am doesn't count, but still worth trying.)

Two racing seasons in an under-powered car such as a Formula Ford (10 pounds per horsepower) can make an incredible difference in driving skill; we're talking going at least 20% faster than your absolute fastest now (as measured by lap times). And you will have a lot of fun on the track.

I have noticed that people really hate being passed on the highway by my 40hp Smart ForTwo Just think if I had DOUBLE the horsepower... hmmm.....

Marcus

You're in luck, Marcus, there's a new model out...

Now I have seen everything!