Did a quick search and turned up a part number for pads, but it involved welding a tab or something.
Is there a replacement pad for the stock calipers that a vendor might have?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
From what I have read and heard the most recommended replacement pads for the stock calipers are the Porterfield pads.
The part numbers I have written down are AP-63 for the front and GD-535 for the rear. These are the R4S street pads and run maybe $200-$250 for the set and are by all accounts a big improvement over stock.
Do a search to find out more info, there was some discussion that the rear Porterfield's need a small modification as they don't have the notch in the back to stop the cyclinder turning.
The part numbers I have written down are AP-63 for the front and GD-535 for the rear. These are the R4S street pads and run maybe $200-$250 for the set and are by all accounts a big improvement over stock.
Do a search to find out more info, there was some discussion that the rear Porterfield's need a small modification as they don't have the notch in the back to stop the cyclinder turning.
I run the Porterfield R4-S pads and did the tab weld routine. However, sometime ago I recall a post/comment that if you call Porterfield directly and tell them the pads are "For a Pantera", they will supply rear pads with the required tab already in place for no additional charge.
I got my brake pads in 02 from Pantera Performance. They had the little bump on the back pads like the stock pads. They work great for street, couldn't tell you about on the track.
Porterfield pads.
Absolutely, by far, the best upgrade for the money that I have done to the car.
And yes, when ordering, have them weld the tabs at the factory. If fact, I didn't know about it when I bought mine and sent them back for the tabs. They were back at my home in Canada in 4 days, no charge for shipping either.
PS. read the website break-in instructions for best performance.
Will
Great service.
Absolutely, by far, the best upgrade for the money that I have done to the car.
And yes, when ordering, have them weld the tabs at the factory. If fact, I didn't know about it when I bought mine and sent them back for the tabs. They were back at my home in Canada in 4 days, no charge for shipping either.
PS. read the website break-in instructions for best performance.
Will
Great service.
Thanks everyone. Calling Porterfield today and will tell them I need tabs on the rear pads.
I suspect I'll end up doing brake lines at the same time as they system needs a bleed anyway. Brakes aren't the best, but I'd like to avoid a new master for now.
I suspect I'll end up doing brake lines at the same time as they system needs a bleed anyway. Brakes aren't the best, but I'd like to avoid a new master for now.
Order the stainless flex lines. for another $100 you can't go wrong
I agree with the guys above. Get the Porterfields. The tab on the rear pads, as Joules said, is needed to prevent the calliper piston from rotating and losing pressure. Since Porterfields add them at no cost, it's easy (as long as you remember to ask for them that way).
Combined with a change to the braided stainless flex lines, the result was a HUGE improvement in braking. Everything fit like a charm and it was one of the best time/dollar/results upgrades I've done yet to my car.
Also, if you want to avoid a new Master, don't push the pedal hard to the floor when bleeding the brakes or you run the risk of scoring the inner parts of the MC by pushing the piston farther than it would normally go. Good luck!
Combined with a change to the braided stainless flex lines, the result was a HUGE improvement in braking. Everything fit like a charm and it was one of the best time/dollar/results upgrades I've done yet to my car.
Also, if you want to avoid a new Master, don't push the pedal hard to the floor when bleeding the brakes or you run the risk of scoring the inner parts of the MC by pushing the piston farther than it would normally go. Good luck!
Nice tip, Mark. I have the best thing in the world, a Motive Pressure Bleeder. On my Wrx it made bleeding mind numbingly simple. I have a universal cap that I sure hope will fit the Pantera. I can't see bleeding any other way anymore!
George, I've heard that is a good move, and I bought a TEE fitting from Wilkinsons to do that (I was told...), but never figured out where it goes and exactly what to remove (and how). Any tips (and pics) you'd like to share with us Poser-Pros? 
Thanks!
Thanks!
Mark,
My brake system is fully modified & has no proportioning valve whatsoever, so I couldn't take a pic of mine. I have no close up pics in my files either. So I went to the internet and came up dry again (unusual for me). There's two little gizmos amongst the tubing below the brake master cylinder, one is the pressure differential switch (aka shuttle valve) and the other is the proportioning valve. In my minds eye I see it attached to the side of the wheel well with a "L" shaped bracket. I think it has one input & two outputs (one for each front wheel). The idea of the "tee" would be to duplicate the one input & two outputs with the 3 connections of the "tee".
I bought my Pantera with a Wilwood brake system installed, so I've not had to perform this work, I need to see a stock system before I can give you a good answer.
Someone else can always chime in.
If someone doesn't, the Pantera show at PI Motorsports is this coming weekend, I'll try to find time to check this out for you.
cowboy from hell
My brake system is fully modified & has no proportioning valve whatsoever, so I couldn't take a pic of mine. I have no close up pics in my files either. So I went to the internet and came up dry again (unusual for me). There's two little gizmos amongst the tubing below the brake master cylinder, one is the pressure differential switch (aka shuttle valve) and the other is the proportioning valve. In my minds eye I see it attached to the side of the wheel well with a "L" shaped bracket. I think it has one input & two outputs (one for each front wheel). The idea of the "tee" would be to duplicate the one input & two outputs with the 3 connections of the "tee".
I bought my Pantera with a Wilwood brake system installed, so I've not had to perform this work, I need to see a stock system before I can give you a good answer.
Someone else can always chime in.
If someone doesn't, the Pantera show at PI Motorsports is this coming weekend, I'll try to find time to check this out for you.
cowboy from hell
George, here's a pic of my set-up (showing years of spilt windshield and brake fluid and battery acid mixed with the rare lime green and later black paint—yum!).
My understanding was that the TEE (from Steve) replaced item A which is some type of damper meant to reduce vibration from discs being slightly out-of-true. Item B is (I believe) the proportioning valve and has the brake light switch. I had intended at some point to replace this with an adjustable Wilwood one like I have in the GT40 (in-cabin, no less).
If you can post a similar pic of your set-up, that would be great. Don't forget to rip out the carpet so we can see what really lies beneath!
Thanks!
My understanding was that the TEE (from Steve) replaced item A which is some type of damper meant to reduce vibration from discs being slightly out-of-true. Item B is (I believe) the proportioning valve and has the brake light switch. I had intended at some point to replace this with an adjustable Wilwood one like I have in the GT40 (in-cabin, no less).
If you can post a similar pic of your set-up, that would be great. Don't forget to rip out the carpet so we can see what really lies beneath!
Thanks!
Attachments
Images (1)
"A" is a rather large, rusty proportioning valve, it appears to have an adjusting knob on the bottom. Unfortunately, it is plumbed into the front brake circuit instead of the rear brake circuit.
B is the pressure differential valve, aka the shuttle valve. It detects a difference in pressure between the front & rear brake circuits and illuminates an alarm light (wires should be hooked to the middle post on the firewall side, but I don't see any). The gizmo with wires on the left hand side is the brake light switch.
cowboy from hell
B is the pressure differential valve, aka the shuttle valve. It detects a difference in pressure between the front & rear brake circuits and illuminates an alarm light (wires should be hooked to the middle post on the firewall side, but I don't see any). The gizmo with wires on the left hand side is the brake light switch.
cowboy from hell
"A" in the photo IS the factory, fixed proportioning valve.
This is what you would replace with the 'tee' fitting.
"B" is the shuttle valve. That valve is a safety feature. It has six ports. Front brake line enters/exits on one side (2 ports), rear line enters/exits on the other side (2 more ports). Your brake light switch is the switch mounted in the forward port on the driver's side of the shuttle valve (port #5).
In the middle section of the valve is a sliding piston in a chamber that connects the two sides (L & R). That piston has a beveled detent (picture an hour glass) in the middle and can move to either the left or the right when pressure is applied. In the photo, under the booster in the middle position of the valve to the rear is the switch that controls the brake warning light on the dashboard (port #6). That light is also controlled by the wear down wiring system on the brake pads, but this feature is disconnected on probably all remaining panteras.
That switch has a plunger that rests in the detent of the sliding piston. As long as there are no breaks anywhere in the brake tubing, the pressure on both sides of the connecting chamber is the same (more or less) and thus the piston will not move. Should you break a line somewhere that tubing leg (F or R) will not be able to build up pressure - you'll just be losing fluid through the break. When that happens the good side now has more pressure and that side's pressure will move the shuttle valve piston to the other side of the chamber. It will move the piston enough to fully - or mostly - block the passage for the bad leg of the tubing. Hopefully retaining enough function to at least leave you with some brakes. Also when the piston moves, the detent in the piston moves and the warning switch plunger is moved (depressed into the switch) and completes the circuit and the dash warning light comes on.
Still with me?
Sometimes bleeding the brakes will result in that shuttle valve piston moving. And sometimes, since it hasn't moved in years, if ever, there may be enough varnish built up in the outer edges of the piston's chamber that once it moves, it is stuck in that varnish. If you are lucky, like I was a couple of years back, closing everything up and working the brake peddle will force the piston back to the central postion and all is good. If it is truly stuck, you now have the joyful task of freeing the piston in the central chamber. Figure out which end of the car is getting fluid and you'll know which side is now blocked by the sticky piston. Removing a fitting and using compressed air may push things back where they belong. If not, well, remove the tubes, remove the valve and clean the varnish with your favorite solvent.
You can prevent the piston from moving during bleeding by removing the switch and threading in a dummy stop that will index with the piston's detent. Some folks do this permanently, but that voids the safety feature the shuttle valve provides.
If you are adding a proportioning valve, you would want to interrupt the rear brake tubing after it leaves the shuttle valve.
Remember, ideal brake function will always have the fronts locking first.
Sorry for such a long post. Confusing subject, and even more so if not clearly explained - which I hope I managed to do.
Larry
This is what you would replace with the 'tee' fitting.
"B" is the shuttle valve. That valve is a safety feature. It has six ports. Front brake line enters/exits on one side (2 ports), rear line enters/exits on the other side (2 more ports). Your brake light switch is the switch mounted in the forward port on the driver's side of the shuttle valve (port #5).
In the middle section of the valve is a sliding piston in a chamber that connects the two sides (L & R). That piston has a beveled detent (picture an hour glass) in the middle and can move to either the left or the right when pressure is applied. In the photo, under the booster in the middle position of the valve to the rear is the switch that controls the brake warning light on the dashboard (port #6). That light is also controlled by the wear down wiring system on the brake pads, but this feature is disconnected on probably all remaining panteras.
That switch has a plunger that rests in the detent of the sliding piston. As long as there are no breaks anywhere in the brake tubing, the pressure on both sides of the connecting chamber is the same (more or less) and thus the piston will not move. Should you break a line somewhere that tubing leg (F or R) will not be able to build up pressure - you'll just be losing fluid through the break. When that happens the good side now has more pressure and that side's pressure will move the shuttle valve piston to the other side of the chamber. It will move the piston enough to fully - or mostly - block the passage for the bad leg of the tubing. Hopefully retaining enough function to at least leave you with some brakes. Also when the piston moves, the detent in the piston moves and the warning switch plunger is moved (depressed into the switch) and completes the circuit and the dash warning light comes on.
Still with me?
Sometimes bleeding the brakes will result in that shuttle valve piston moving. And sometimes, since it hasn't moved in years, if ever, there may be enough varnish built up in the outer edges of the piston's chamber that once it moves, it is stuck in that varnish. If you are lucky, like I was a couple of years back, closing everything up and working the brake peddle will force the piston back to the central postion and all is good. If it is truly stuck, you now have the joyful task of freeing the piston in the central chamber. Figure out which end of the car is getting fluid and you'll know which side is now blocked by the sticky piston. Removing a fitting and using compressed air may push things back where they belong. If not, well, remove the tubes, remove the valve and clean the varnish with your favorite solvent.
You can prevent the piston from moving during bleeding by removing the switch and threading in a dummy stop that will index with the piston's detent. Some folks do this permanently, but that voids the safety feature the shuttle valve provides.
If you are adding a proportioning valve, you would want to interrupt the rear brake tubing after it leaves the shuttle valve.
Remember, ideal brake function will always have the fronts locking first.
Sorry for such a long post. Confusing subject, and even more so if not clearly explained - which I hope I managed to do.
Larry
I thought one of the recommended changes for ALL Pantera brake systems was to remove the shuttle valve. Am I mistaken? I seem to recall that a lot of guys mount a typical Ford or GM plunger switch under the dash to actuate the brake lights.
quote:I thought one of the recommended changes for ALL Pantera brake systems was to remove the shuttle valve.
There is NOTHING to be gained by removing the shuttle valve. But you WILL lose the safety factor it provides. The sliding piston can be a problem when bleeding the brakes as I outlined, but one easily avoided.
I can see no reason to remove it other than some need for a cleaner look.
Now the stock fixed proportioning valve MAY still be functional in some cars - most are probably so varnished up as to be NFG - but they were only calibrated for the stock set-up. Any changes to the brakes render it out-of-sync with the rest of the system.
So with the exception of a well-maintained stocker, I'd say toss the proportioning but retain the shuttle.
Larry
quote:Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
...So with the exception of a well-maintained stocker, I'd say toss the proportioning but retain the shuttle...
I'm in agreement with Larry. However, if you want to improve the performance of the oem brake system, remove the proportioning valve, in every situation. A proportioning valve does not belong on the front brakes ever. It is one of the designs of the Pantera, along with the cooling system, that makes me think to myself "what in the hell were the designers smoking?".
A proportioning valve reduces its hydraulic output pressure in relation to its input pressure, above a certain setting, which creates a knee in its output curve. Under no circumstances do you ever want to reduce the pressure to the front brakes, the driver does that with his/her foot. Proportioning valves belong in the rear break circuit to balance the pressure to the rear brakes to avoid rear brake lock up.
My Wilwood brake system has no proportioning valve at all, but because the pistons in the rear calipers are smaller than the pistons in the front calipers, the rear brakes have never locked up on me yet.
If a Pantera works OK with a proportioning valve in the front brake circuit, and none in the rear brake circuit, it is obvious that rear brake lock up is not a problem with the oem brake system. Removing the proportioning valve in the front brake circuit will not hurt a thing. It is one of the oldest Pantera improvements there is, owners have been doing this since the early seventies.
cowboy from hell
Hey George,
Was the photo taken during install or is it me as that brake MC appears stuck up way above the hood line?
We should add that the brake line flanges are metric so for those who don't want to go to the hassle of finding a metric Tee (do any vendors now sell one?), getting brake lines re-flanged and/or re-routed there is an option where some vendors (at least Larry Stock PPC) are offering a proportioning valve with the guts removed and a brazed over end to act as a Tee fitting, thus bolting straight up.
I actually stripped my out and did it myself.
Julian
Was the photo taken during install or is it me as that brake MC appears stuck up way above the hood line?
We should add that the brake line flanges are metric so for those who don't want to go to the hassle of finding a metric Tee (do any vendors now sell one?), getting brake lines re-flanged and/or re-routed there is an option where some vendors (at least Larry Stock PPC) are offering a proportioning valve with the guts removed and a brazed over end to act as a Tee fitting, thus bolting straight up.
I actually stripped my out and did it myself.
Julian
quote:Originally posted by Joules5:
...Was the photo taken during install or is it me as that brake MC appears stuck up way above the hood line...
Its the camera angle my friend, the camera is in the trunk, tilted upwards.
cowboy from hell
Does anyone have a pic of what the rear of the rear pad should look like ...the tab .. cant remember if my PORTERFIELDS had it ??? Have to check ...Also what was the trick to turning in the rear psitons in the caliper ??? There was a little trick to that ??
Ron
Ron
Porterfield welds on more of a pin as opposed to a pad. They do the same job though
George and Larry, THANKS! Great explanation and photos. Now with winter looming I can try to get that mess of mine sorted for some serious testing in the spring!
And, my Porterfields also had a pin instead of the square factory-style tab. Rotating the rear calliper pistons is just a matter of putting a large flat-blade screwdriver (or proper tool if you have one) into the notch and rotating the piston about 1/8 turn to allow it to be compressed back into the calliper so the new (presumably fatter) pads will clear the disc on reassembly.
And, my Porterfields also had a pin instead of the square factory-style tab. Rotating the rear calliper pistons is just a matter of putting a large flat-blade screwdriver (or proper tool if you have one) into the notch and rotating the piston about 1/8 turn to allow it to be compressed back into the calliper so the new (presumably fatter) pads will clear the disc on reassembly.
Mark / 4NHOTROD,
Thanks ... yes thats what I remember a dimple on the back of the porterfields ...I guess as long as its not in the center it will prevent rotation ?? Ok so its a 1/8 turn rotation then it pushs in ??? got to check that.
Again Thanks
Thanks ... yes thats what I remember a dimple on the back of the porterfields ...I guess as long as its not in the center it will prevent rotation ?? Ok so its a 1/8 turn rotation then it pushs in ??? got to check that.
Again Thanks
Wow - I start with where to get pads and end up wanting to redo the whole brake system! This is great, and the photos are wonderful! I really need to hook up with the Panteras in town. There are a couple, and some mystery ones as well. This is what I get for leaving mine sitting..
I'll have to see if mine still has the proportioning valve.
I'll have to see if mine still has the proportioning valve.