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Broken camshaft

dwdwMember
Well, after working on my car for over a year, I finally had it ready in time for the Pocono event, where I was honored with a first place win in the stock class. My car was running great and I was long overdue to drive and enjoy my car. A week later my son and I were on our way to a local cruise in when I heard an odd noise, which would be hard to try to decsribe, and I lost power and drifted to the roadside. I was able to get it running good enough to get it on the trailer, but had to floor the pedal to keep it running. No horrible noises, but it sounded like it was running on two cylinders. I suspected an ignition problem and the spark checked out to be on the weak side. I decided to replace the dual points with a Pertronix Ignitor II module and coil, which resulted in a super strong spark, but did not solve the problem. I tested the compression on the left side of the engine and the front cylinder was good and the back three not good. I pulled the valve cover and when cranking the engine, the front rockers moved, but the rockers on the back three cylinders did not. I believe this means the camshaft is broken. The noise I heard must have been the camshaft breaking, or worse, a spun cam bearing. I was only at about 1,000 rpm when it happened. My engine is completly stock (40,000 miles), and appears to have never been touched, and I can't believe this happened. The only thing I did to the engine when I was redoing the cooling system, was a Flow Kooler water pump and when I had the timing cover plate off to replace the gasket, I replaced the stock fiber gear and chain with a Cloyes seel gear set and timing chain. I will need to enlist the help of an experienced engine person, but I was hoping someone might be able to give me some insight as to what I'm facing. Would it be possible to replace the cam without pulling the engine? If the engine must come out, can someone refer me to a good article to help me prepare for the task? Thanks.
Dennis
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panteradougpanteradougMember
The last time I heard of a Ford camshaft breaking it was my fathers 58 Ford 352.

If it is snapped into two pieces alot of things are possible.

The fact of the matter is you won't know until you open up the engine.

If it is broken it is possible that you did no damage and only need to change the camshaft. But that isn't likely.

If you were running with only half a camshaft then you likely bent the valves of the cylinders that were disconnected.

You should proceed on the premise that you are just needing a camshaft. Disassemble for that purpose but put the car in a location that if you need to pull the engine it is accessable.

I'm not even sure if you can get the entire cam out if it is broken while the engine is still in the car.

It is possible that those valves that you saw not operating are mearly seized in their valve guides and have collapsed lifters.

It does seem likely that there is an oiling issue that is involved. These hydraulic lifter engines that sit for long peeriods of time do not lend themselves well to this application. They need to be run often.

Really at this point, the entire engine needs to be gone into to check everything. It is the only way for sure to know but it really is better to be lucky then good. You could luck out and have hurt relatively little of the engine.

It isn't going to be easy to do this work on the engine while it is installed but I suppose that anything is possible.

Best of luck to you.

I had hired an Indian Medicineman on the recommendation of a friend. I paid him in advance and while he was here agents from the INS showed up and arrested him. Now I am out the money and I he put a curse on me as a result.

Best to go slow and not presume anything.
Last edited by panteradoug
dwdwMember
Doug, thanks for your thoughts and I will take your advice to err to the cautious side. Unless we are absolutely sure of the damage or lack of damage, we will pull the engine and go through everything and not take any chances. I'll just have to look at that as an opportunity to make some power increasing modifications and get that lumpy idle that I love to hear, which most other Panteras already have.
Dennis
C charliemccallMember
Hi Dennis,

As said, you really won't know what happened until you pull the engine and look inside. Broken camshafts aren't all that common. Wiped lobes on camshafts do happen from time to time, and there has been a lot of press about this problem due to the lack of ZDDP in today's motor oils. (If you are bored, google ZDDP and flat tappet cams and you'll find all kinds of info regarding this).

I, too, would prepare for the worst and have a pleasant surprise in case it isn't so bad. But a comment - if your engine is all original, you will probably be better off biting the bullet and having the whole thing rebuilt. Whatever broke is the first of a number of interrelated parts that all have 30+ years... and if you step up the juice with a hotter cam you may stress the next weaker link, which is old to start with. Your valves are old, and if stock, they are 2-piece and prone to breaking... your bearings, rods... it may be better to have the engine out once and do everything right than have things break one at a time, one component a year, for, say, 10 years!

Food for thought. It may seem cheaper to just replace the broken part, but you may be money ahead in the long run (not to mention blood pressure) by doing it right once, and up front.
dwdwMember
Charlie and Mark, thanks for your responses. Mark, I'll get the guest room ready, when can you come? Seriously, Atlantic City to my place is a long drive, but I'll let you know if I get in over my head.
You're right, Charlie makes a good point. In fact, I'm memorizing his response verbatum, so I can recite it to my wife as to why it makes more sense to go for the gusto than to try and take the cheap way out. I'm hoping my original block is ok to use and will try that route first. I'll let you you know how I make out.
Dennis
accobraaccobraMember
Dennis,

I had this happen to me once on a race motor and my issue stemmed from a keyway walking out of the timing gear ( the builder left out the washer) ... the cam stopped and the pistons kept going .. it was a solid lifter big block and the valves hit the pistons and broke the cam and cracked the crank. Un fortunately its the summer .. but if you really hustle and find a good builder you can pull this motor and get back in the car to catch the rest of the summer ... but I wouldnt try to replace just the cam .. just the metal fragments will damage the rest of the engine and you dont know the real reason the cam broke ? and what else is broke. I wouldnt start it again .. your car is a prime example of a stock car and is true;y worth more with the original block and heads .. I say pull it and get it rebuild.

I put a high volume pump and a high pressure spirng in my white car and there were no issues a Pocono. Do the same when you rebuild it.

Ron
dwdwMember
Michael and Ron, thanks for your support. I'll be back!

Ron, it was great to see you run your car at the Pocono Raceway. It was surely one of the fastest cars on the track, and it's street legal! It makes us Pantera owners proud to see such a demonstration of what these cars are capable of. Awesome!

Dennis
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
I put a high volume pump and a high pressure spirng in my white car and there were no issues a Pocono. Do the same when you rebuild it.

There are those who advise to NOT do either of those two changes.

Who's right? Damned if I know.

But in any case, be sure to replace the stock hex oil pump-to-distributor drive shaft with an aftermarket high-strength unit. About $15.

AND make sure your distributor gear is upgraded to double (one inside the other) roll pin attachment.

Larry
v8capriv8capriMember
What I tend to do with the oil pumps depends on the engine.
If the engine is used, ie drops a lot of pressure when warm, or has lowish oil pressure and or you use a 25/50 or higher oil, then a high volume pump is the way to go.
If the engine is newish, quite tight, with tight oil clearances, has high pressure and you have to use a thin oil, then a std pump will be fine and there will be no benefit from a high volume pump, as the pressure relief will bleed it all out.
The ARP oil pump drive is a great investment.And double pinning the dizzy drive gear can't hurt.
If you have a bronze dizzy gear ( roller cam ) I would try and keep the std oil pump if possible, as the h/v pump will make the gear wear faster.
accobraaccobraMember
I usually base engines on what works on the race track .. like they used to say what wins on sunday sells on monday .. heres what I;m selling you in words of experience.

A high volume pump with a high pressure spring in an engine that has oil problems and 5w 30 synthetic oil. I have been doing this since 1993 and only lost one engine due to Human error. The longetivity is at least 30% longer.

I owned a AUDI A4 1.8 turbo and that engine has oil issues same as the 351C .. Audi recommends 0W 30 basically the thinner the oil the quicker it gets from point a to b. Pressure can be argued but in simple terms ...ever take a shower with 35 psi .. its like pissing in the wind ... but crank it up to 75psi and now we are talking ... same in an engine more oil is ALWAYS better.

Ron
cybomancybomanMember
quote:
Originally posted by accobra:
... if you want to swing a temporary engine and rebuild the original give us a yell.

Ron


Dennis,

That's a great idea to get you going for the summer!

That way you can take your time and put some thought into rebuilding your engine without stressing too much. You'd still be able to enjoy the rest of the season, which still has many months to go. Engine rebuilds can take some time, especially if you weren't expecting one!

I'd come help you swing a new engine over a weekend. Where exactly in PA are you?

Michael
dwdwMember
You guys are too much! Thanks for your offers, but you're all 3 hrs.+ from me and I wouldn't want to inconvenience you that way, even though it would be great to have you all here. I've lined up some local help to do the pull(no experience in Panteras though). I'm also getting a quote on doing a complete rebuild and have abandoned the idea of attempting to just replace the cam.

The idea of a sliding in a temp engine and no down time would be cool, but the fact is I won't have any time to cruise anyway because once the engine is out I need to spend the time to address the area's of the car that are difficult(impossible) to do with the engine in place. Fall is a nice time to cruise.

I've asked for about an additional 100 hp, so now I must also think about upgrading the cooling and exhaust systems. Looks like I'll have to put off that heating system installation planned for my garage for another year. I'll keep you all posted.

Dennis
dwdwMember
pantera3322,

Thanks, I'll let you know if I need any help. I'd like to take a look at your car one of these days.

Also, if you would like to meet Pantera owners, may I suggest that you join a club? I belong to Jersey Panteras (www.jerseypanteras.com) and I must say that the members are a great bunch of people. Joining the club has taken my Pantera owning experience to a much higher level.

Dennis
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