Engine started and then died - help

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Mike; Invest in a oil pump priming shaft.

Here's the link...

http://www.summitracing.com/pa...Tv_bSlOgsxoC-EXw_wcB

GREAT $14.00 Investment!!!...Mark

Mark, you need to take the existing oil pump drive shaft out to use that primer shaft.

You may not even be able to do that if the retaining clip is still in place?

The simplest thing to do is just put a 1/4" drive socket on the the hex drive of the existing oil pump drive shaft.

If you use a long ratchet extension it will fit right into the chuck of a 3/8" drill and hold it tight enough to prime the pump without slipping.

You need a reversing drill since it works counter clockwise.

You do have an analog watch or clock and know what that means right?

Hello Doug; The direction of motion is caused by the Coriolis effect.
Just thought I would mention that...Mark

I pulled all the plugs so the next time we crank the engine over it won't have any compression loads. Once I have oil pressure, it's on to installing the distributor, reinstalling the plugs, and seeing if she fires up!

Then I have a day's work just putting everything back together.

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Hello Mike; Invest in a oil pump priming shaft.

Here's the link...

http://www.summitracing.com/pa...Tv_bSlOgsxoC-EXw_wcB

GREAT $14.00 Investment!!!...Mark

Mark, you need to take the existing oil pump drive shaft out to use that primer shaft.

You may not even be able to do that if the retaining clip is still in place?

The simplest thing to do is just put a 1/4" drive socket on the the hex drive of the existing oil pump drive shaft.

If you use a long ratchet extension it will fit right into the chuck of a 3/8" drill and hold it tight enough to prime the pump without slipping.

You need a reversing drill since it works counter clockwise.

You do have an analog watch or clock and know what that means right?

Hello Doug; The direction of motion is caused by the Coriolis effect.
Just thought I would mention that...Mark

Well I think the entire situation is causing Mike the colitis effect?

You won't get any oil pressure without the distributor installed as the distributor drives the oil pump.

I realize that. I have stabbed the distributor into the engine, but I need help from my friend to help me with aligning it to #1.
First though, I wanted to just get the diz back into the car (in any position) so I could crank the car over with the plugs removed and get oil all up through the engine with no compression loads.

This is just because we've been cranking multiple times trying to start the engine, with no oil pressure. Probably not needed.

But yes, you are correct, without the diz installed the pump won't pump oil.

I am SO looking forward to getting this thing running again.

quote:

Originally posted by forestg:
You won't get any oil pressure without the distributor installed as the distributor drives the oil pump.

So... Was Snow White good to you this Valentines Day? Did she reward you with her throaty roar? Inquiring minds want to know. Beautiful day for a drive!

The distributor pin snapped instantly again. Oil pump is jammed up apparently, or something, I don't know.

I've worn my welcome out at my friend's lift, where a simple oil change turned into this big clusterf**k.

So today I have to get the car towed home, get my decklid safely home, and then I don't know what I'm going to do.

I can't do this job on my back, I just had open heart surgery a few months ago, I've already over-extended myself working on the car.

Something is jammed in the oil pump I suspect.

Apparently, I need to saw off the tab that holds the e-brake pulley so the pan can come down and off, and then I can get at the oil pump.

I'd pulled the plugs so I could build some oil pressure because we'd been cranking and cranking, trying this and that to start the motor, and the new pin snapped instantly.

I'm not going to touch the motor or try to turn it over, so hopefully when I open up the oil pump I can find the culprit stuck in there, and identify it, make sure it's not something else that might be going wrong.

I did find evidence of a previously sheared distributor gear pin at the base of the distributor.

Hopefully it's just something simple (HA!) and I'll get the car running soon.

At this point though, I spent all my money on the car, no lift, no helper, I'm just going to get the car back home and go cry in the corner for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
I think that car has the rear crossmember mod to allow the pan to come off without pulling the engine. Also think you have a bronze distributor gear for the steel solid roller cam; common with real-racers. Those gears wear rapidly- look really close at the bronze teeth for wear. Summit has spare gears.

If Bosswrench's memory is correct, you might be all set with the crossmember.
Do you have a bronze gear?
What is its condition?

quote:

I did find evidence of a previously sheared distributor gear pin at the base of the distributor.

Loooong shot.

Since you've removed/handled the dizzy, is it at all possible something inside the dizzy has shifted/dropped and the block to rotation is inside the dizzy?

Not likely, just trying to throw out a possible??? 'simple' fix.

Also, since I think you replaced the Unilite module, were the same length screws as before used for mounting the new unit?

Good luck.

Larry

Didn't you just prime this pump with a drill when the distributor was out and it was OK?

There is a screen on the oil pump pick up. It isn't likely at all that it picked anything up just now.

Dropping the oil pan on a Cleveland isn't hard at either.

If you don't have a removalble crossmember, take a sawzall and make one. That's relatively simple also

Do not give up right now. You're just tired and frustrated.

Heart surgery is nothing to joke about but look at me, I do this with only 1/2 a brain.

They only threaten the pre-frontal lebodamy...periodically!

You can do it. Get a good nights rest, sit in front of the "happy light" in the morning and go kick so ass...stricktly in the Biblical sense that is.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Didn't you just prime this pump with a drill when the distributor was out and it was OK?

There is a screen on the oil pump pick up. It isn't likely at all that it picked anything up just now.

Dropping the oil pan on a Cleveland isn't hard at either.

If you don't have a removalble crossmember, take a sawzall and make one. That's relatively simple also

Do not give up right now. You're just tired and frustrated.

Heart surgery is nothing to joke about but look at me, I do this with only 1/2 a brain.

They only threaten the pre-frontal lebodamy...periodically!

You can do it. Get a good nights rest, sit in front of the "happy light" in the morning and go kick so ass...stricktly in the Biblical sense that is.

Winner!, Winner!!, Chicken Dinner!!!. I believe Doug is correct in that you had the oil pump spinning with the extension & drill.
If this is correct, then the problem is NOT a stuck oil pump.
So if you oil pump spins freely, and without installation your distributor spins freely, then the binding is occurring when the distributor is mated with the cam gear.
I wonder if a piece of metal had lodged itself between a cam gear tooth/teeth?
Can you install the distributor & Slooooooowly rotate the motor by hand ( socket & ratchet on crankshaft nut) and see if the motor rotates a little then binds up/stops. At the point of stopping/binding up, now rotate in the opposite direction & see if the motor does rotate a slight amount before once again binding up/stopping.
By attempting this, you are trying to determine that either "Yes" you do have rotation, BUT is limited, or "NO", there is NO rotation.

I believe the previous sheared pin pieces are the cause.

Other members hopefully know the answer to my question... Is it possible to look down the distributor hole & view the camshaft gear?

If "Yes", then see if the camshaft gear is not damaged & free of particles between the teeth of the gear...Mark

I've lined up a friend with a lift and tools, a professional mechanic, who has offered to help me next weekend.

I just need to sawzall off that E-brake tab/mount, and remove the frame stiffener, and the oil pan should come out without issue.

I'm going to buy a new oil pump just in case this one is too marred up from whatever is jammed in there.

Hopefully, whatever is jammed in there isn't anything important, and I don't find another problem with the engine.

It sure ran like a bat out of hell when it was running.

I'll have the week to calm down, as long as the weather holds out, my friend and I should be able to get at that oil pump, find the offending item that's jamming things up, and I'll have the car back running soon.

I cannot relay how depressing it is though to have spent my life savings on what WAS to be a fun investment, and have it turn into a 2-3 week internal surgery job. I truly hope it's something simple and I can fix the issue and move on. I'd spent the whole week previous week troubleshooting all kinds of wiring issues, I was all proud that I'd made so much headway getting all those minor issues fixed, and now I'm doing open heart surgery on my car after driving it maybe 100 miles.

It WILL give me a chance to clean all the interior and firewall and seats before they go back into the car.

Again, I hope when we get the pan dropped, that we find something simple, and that it's not some other issue that's even worse.

I'm tapped out, if it turns into something expensive I won't be able to fix the car for quite a while.

Mike; You are assuming it is a "jammed oil pump".

First things FIRST!

Can you spin the oil pump using an extension & drill?...Mark

Pull a valve cover, turn the engine over, and see if all the rockers work properly. I have seen a cam break in four pieces and jam and not let the oil pump or dizzy move much. Broken nylon timing gear jammed? pull the front cover off before cutting the ebrake brace off. Might be simpler to see something. Maybe cam gears are jammed?.....

Good luck!

MIKE, FIRST
take it easy, You don't need a repeat of a major rebuild of your heart!

As one with heart condition, I have to take time away. I know at first not being able to push on is aggrovating, but don't take chances

carefully remove the dizzy & inspect down the hole for debris remnants of the first roll pin that broke

carefully inspect the dizzy gear for evidence that a piece of that first roll pin didn't lodge between the cam gear

measure precisely for dizzy gear depth on the shaft, I found that Mallory supplied my Unilite with the gear too low causing a binding issue when the hold down was tightened

using the 1/4" drive 5/16" socket on an extension try to turn the oil pump drive shaft in a counter or anti clockwise direction regardless of Coriolis

if the OPDS turns then the OP is not jammed stuck

if the OPDS does not budge CC-wise try turning it clockwise

My thoughts are to leave the oil pump as-is, hopefully to find the offending piece that's causing the problem.

The engine turned over by hand in both directions when I was getting the diz both in, and out.

I think I needed to rotate the engine because the hex wasn't turning, so I needed to turn the motor over to "jack" the diz gear up, and back down with the angled threads.

When I hit the key the new pin went "tink" instantly, so I know it's pretty much the oil pump or shaft that's locked up.

Next weekend I'm going to drop the pan and replace the oil pump, check to see what's in the pan.

The diz and 3 pin portions should come out with the diz, they were pressed in very tight.

When I took the firewall off, I found one of the 3 pin portions from a previous breakage (I assume, Roger said this has never happened to this engine) but it is interesting to find the very same broken part laying at the base of the distributor.

I hope to find the offending part, because I don't want to reassemble a ticking time-bomb.

Anyways, I'll hopefully find a piece of gasket, or metal, or something not too critical jammmed into the old oil pump gears, and installing a new pump, and removal of any debris in the pan will hopefully get my oil pump spinning. New pins in the diz gear should have that back in order, and then once I get it all back together it'll hopefully run.

Before you pull the engine out did you check that the distributor was free spinning when you pulled it out? Was it spinning through full rotations without sticking? I think the reason you had trouble pulling it out is because the shaft is seized and the tapered gear wasn't allowing it to turn and come out. When you cranked the engine by hand the cam gear turned and pushed the distributor out.

That is exactly the case.

When I turned the engine over the pin sheared again instantly because the oil pump/shaft is frozen;jammed.

My next move is to remove the pan and replace or repair the oil pump.


I'm also adding a magnetic oil pan plug.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:
Before you pull the engine out did you check that the distributor was free spinning when you pulled it out? Was it spinning through full rotations without sticking? I think the reason you had trouble pulling it out is because the shaft is seized and the tapered gear wasn't allowing it to turn and come out. When you cranked the engine by hand the cam gear turned and pushed the distributor out.

Mike, I've been following your story and I just wanted to give you a shout to cheer you on! Don't get depressed, get determined! It's fixable and you will get it figured out and running again. In the process you'll come to know Snow White that much better. All the best, -Olaf

Mike, I have read all the threads to this and I am still not sure that your tested the existing pump in situ with a drill motor. Did you do that? If so what are the results?

Mike -

Maybe there is some value in consolidating your three threads into one, so you (and we) can get all the details in one place.

I'm sure it would save you some work / time.

Just a "trying to be helpful" suggestion.....

PS> I agree with IFord, I'd be interested in all configureations prior to doing anything major:

a) Pump with a socket (turn by hand if you don't want to dislodge anything)

b) Distributor by itself

c) Distributor with no gear, but clamped down into the block - maybe the shaft is too long, bottoming out the gearrotor?

Good luck

Rocky

I agree, merging te three threads would help. If the mods could help with that I'd be obliged.

I cranked the motor over by hand to jack the distributor off, and back on, because the hex wasn't moving. I figured it was just hard to turn.

Now that I've snapped this new pin, with the starter motor, in the forward direction, my thinking is to not try and turn the pump or mess with anything because I figure now, whatever it is that is jamming the oil pump, is solidly stuck in place. I fear that if I try cranking the oil pump by hand that the offending piece (whatever it is) may fall out and I may lose it.

Tomorrow, I have a mobile mechanic guy who's coming and we're going to put the car on jackstands and he's agreed to remove my pan and install a new oil pump for $200.

I'm more interested to see what's inside that pump, and what story it may tell. My fear is the story gets worse, and there's evidence of something coming apart, or breaking up, requiring the engine/trans to come out of the car and at that point, i might as well rebuild both the engine and gearbox.

The kicker is, I overspent what I had to buy the car because it seemed like such a solid, good running car, and worth spending the extra money on, so now I'm tapped out.

If the story takes a bad turn, the car may have to sit for 6 months or longer before I have enough to deal with something like an engine rebuild. Even broken, the engine is still a very expensive bunch of parts.

My hopes are it's something simple and able to be identified.

I have a new oil pump on order, I'm hoping it all just goes back together and I get my car back running.

Right now I'm devastated.

The distributor gear looked good, and the clearances are good (gear isn't being squashed down onto the block with force, and it's not up too high either. The bottom of the distributor gear showed normal wear where it spins against the block.

Something, either the pump, or something with the shaft, is hung up, or jammed. Tomorrow that pan and oil pump will be out and we'll know the whole story (hopefully that is where the story ends).
The motor was insane while it ran.

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
Mike -

Maybe there is some value in consolidating your three threads into one, so you (and we) can get all the details in one place.

I'm sure it would save you some work / time.

Just a "trying to be helpful" suggestion.....

PS> I agree with IFord, I'd be interested in all configureations prior to doing anything major:

a) Pump with a socket (turn by hand if you don't want to dislodge anything)

b) Distributor by itself

c) Distributor with no gear, but clamped down into the block - maybe the shaft is too long, bottoming out the gearrotor?

Good luck

Rocky
Rocky

Mike,

First, I am really sorry this has happened to you. It's everyone's worst nightmare when buying an old high performance car. My advice to you is simple. Quit chasing elusive clues .. clearly a bandaid isn't going to get it fixed. And if it did, there will be something else that might be even more costly. I suggest you bite the bullet and pull the engine. Go back to first principles .. take it apart, check out everything and reassemble. You can do it yourself .. it's only a Ford V8, or you can seek help (but I'd still recommend that you get your hands dirty .. a good learning experience). Be patient .. be thorough .. and it will all come out OK. Good luck.

I hope it doesn't, but that's what it may come down to.

I spent more than I had to buy the car, so if a major overhaul it's going to be a while before she runs again.

My hopes are we find something mundane in the oil pump, and that there are no signs of anything catastrophic, and I'll be able to button the car back up and get back to enjoying Pantera ownership.

If it comes down to needing to remove the engine/gearbox, I might as well to the gearbox as well, while I have it out of the car.

This whole thing just sucks though.

I'll know tomorrow what my next move will be.

quote:

Originally posted by Robbie:
Mike,

First, I am really sorry this has happened to you. It's everyone's worst nightmare when buying an old high performance car. My advice to you is simple. Quit chasing elusive clues .. clearly a bandaid isn't going to get it fixed. And if it did, there will be something else that might be even more costly. I suggest you bite the bullet and pull the engine. Go back to first principles .. take it apart, check out everything and reassemble. You can do it yourself .. it's only a Ford V8, or you can seek help (but I'd still recommend that you get your hands dirty .. a good learning experience). Be patient .. be thorough .. and it will all come out OK. Good luck.

I'd be surprised if there was a catastrophic failure.

Catastrophic failures usually result in a very loud explosion and oil and metal and smoke everywhere.

It would not surprise me to hear that a fine sliver of high density polyethylene has jammed the pump.

A sliver of polyethylene from the oil drum that the new oil you just put in came from. But that is still a case of wait and see.


I can understand you being upset and depressed about all this just after getting your dream car and that is totally understandable, my advise is to be philosophical and perhaps look at this episode as a blessing in disguise.

Non of us know what events in life may unfold, perhaps your car being out of action at this time has allowed you (unknowingly) to avoid some other much worse event ??? If it had been going you could have been on the highway and been involved in a serious accident ? Who knows? Just roll with the punches and wonder....

I hope you have the good fortune to have it sorted out soon.

I'm keen to hear the cause.

Good luck.

Ironically, I got into a rear ender (my fault) going to the parts store today, so I'm not sure your theory is holding true, but yes, maybe it saved me from a deadly accident. I'll think of it that way lol.

Somehow, replacing the oil in the car caused this oil pump to jam up. I'm hoping it's something like a piece of cork, or polythylene, or something OTHER than another piece of the car. The car was running so well, and has low mileage, so I really hope it's something simple.

Tomorrow at 9 the car will be on jackstands and shortly thereafter the pan will be removed and the story will be told.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Ironically, I got into a rear ender (my fault) going to the parts store today, so I'm not sure your theory is holding true, but yes, maybe it saved me from a deadly accident. I'll think of it that way lol.

Somehow, replacing the oil in the car caused this oil pump to jam up. I'm hoping it's something like a piece of cork, or polythylene, or something OTHER than another piece of the car. The car was running so well, and has low mileage, so I really hope it's something simple.

Tomorrow at 9 the car will be on jackstands and shortly thereafter the pan will be removed and the story will be told.

Stranger things have happened.

Back in October my wife brought home a new brand of Tomato Sauce we wanted to try.

My job was to open the jar and heat it in a sauce pan. When I did I noticed something clink into the pan that seemed out of place. It turned out to be the top to a felt tip marking pen.

Do you know that jar is still sitting int the corner with the top in it waiting for the company to return the call, ask what happened, maybe some pictures, say they were sorry and give us a coupon for another free jar? I'm still waiting.

I invision a lot of things. I try to reserve that for things like being seduced by the Playmate of the Year. Hope springs eternal, but there certainly could be some remnants of cork gasket that got away the last time things were completely uncovered? Why the Playmate uses cork I don't know? Kinky huh?

I know Mike has sold his car and went to flying, does anyone know the outcome of this? I have the same problem. Oil pump shaft will not turn.
Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by RiverRat:
I know Mike has sold his car and went to flying, does anyone know the outcome of this? I have the same problem. Oil pump shaft will not turn.
Thanks

The most likely scenario is that there is debris stuck in the pump impellers.

It could be from a lot of things but if you have the original timing chain set in the car still, the gears were coated with plastic/nylon to make them run quieter and at some point, aka, sooner or later, it crumbles off of the gears and falls into the oil pan.

It is hard and not soft and flexable. That's what I would bet on.


Mike had a roll pin stuck in the oil pump gears. That was from an earlier situation where the oil pump stuck with a previous owner.

There was also debris in the pan from failed bearings in the roller rocker arms in the car.

This of course started a "chicken little, the sky is falling" scenario.

But that was him and not you.


First thing you need to do is pull the oil pan and examine the contents, then the oil pump.

You are also going to need to remove the valve covers, and look for debris, and remove the distributor and check the roll pins and the distributor drive gear.

If it looks like debris has gotten past the oil pump into the oil passages, then it is engine rebuild time.

That would indicate that everything in the oiling system is contaminated and the bearings could be effected too?

Here's hoping that this is all minor and just cleaning out the pump fixes it all? Sometimes just being lucky is better than being good?

I had the same issue a few months ago. I rebuilt the carbs, then new fuel pumps. Still ran great for short stints until it just died. I replaced the MSD and the problem saw solved for good. Not sure if the MSD overheats or what, but it runs perfectly. It was frustrating as I was getting fuel and ignition. It would simply cut stop without warning.

My apologies for the missed spellings. MSD solved the problem once and for all.

MSD stands for might suddenly die.

They are very undependable and will die for no reason at all. Get a more dependable ignition while the car is running and not stuck out in the 'boonies' somewhere.

I'd recommend the Pantera-electronics ignition. It is made for the Pantera specifically and has features the MSD could never dream of.

There seems to be a time limiting clock on the MSD. Somewhere in the three to six month period is the witching zone for them.

But... The "second original poster" stated that his distributor shaft would not turn.

This is not an MSD failure.


Or maybe I should keep my mouth shut.

Rocky

IRREGARDLESS, the people still MUST be warned about MSD's!

MSD = maybe some day but mostly might suddenly die.

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
But... The "second original poster" stated that his distributor shaft would not turn.

sounds like another pull off the covers & clean it out job to me



this pic shows the 2V standard oil screen, built in hole under the metal strap that lets it all in when the screen clogs. hopefully yours has the performance style screen but this material from a decomposed timing sprocket will still get through the performance screen also. a piece small enough to pass through the screen is still large enough to stop the oil pump. smaller pieces that did not stop the oil pump are large enough to damage the bearings & crank

realistically, pull the motor out & have a fresh ground crank & new bearings installed along with the new oil pump & timing set. this job can be done w/o pulling the intake & heads off or the cam & valvetrain apart but you do want to pull the rocker covers off to clean the oil returns from the heads to the pan & inspect the valve stem seals. the stem seals may be in the same condition or the major culprit fouling the oil pump, then the heads come off too & at this point you may as well re-ring & deglaze the cylinders & install a fresh set of lifters along with the new cam