Filling a completely dry coolant system

Radiator vent:

Radiator Drain cock:

Pressure test kit:

Pressure test kit installed:

Water pump arbor:

Water pump arbor 2:

Water pump arbor installed:

i will purchase one of the pump tools...my email is gunnr@comcast.net
great article.....thanks

Stant makes a pressure testing kit. Retails for around $100. If you do a lot of business with the supplier maybe you can get it for $70? I have that one. It's high quality and will last a long time. Stant makes additional adapters for it that you can buy separately to add to the kit as are required by different manufacturers.

Basically what that means is that there are two cap adapters that you need for other newer cars. One threads internally into the cars plastic expansion tank and the other externally. The new Fords and GM'have external threads on the tanks and the European cars like the Audi have internal threads.

Those are two additional adapters you need at about $45 each if you want a current complete kit.

You DO NOT NEED ADDITIONAL ADAPTERS WITH THIS KIT JUST TO USE ON THE PANTERA! Just the basic kit is sufficient.


The Pantera needs to be stood on it's nose as much as you can do it to get the air out of the system.

There have been various methods tried over the years.

There is a Ford service bulletin from when the cars were new, to add a 1/4" line from the top of the radiator tank to the pressure tank.

This was Fords recommendation to provide an automatic air bleed for the system.

Some say it doesn't work but I have it in my car and I have no trapped air issues with the system.



The other thing that you MUST do in a Pantera is the water pump that you put in MUST have the fast warm up bleed hole in it.

The Wieand pump does not and it must be added.

I am told that the Edelbrock does have it but I have not had that pump in my hands and can not verify that at all.

Without that bypass hole the Pantera WILL overheat and you won't find the cause.

For some reason the bypass hole is not drilled by Wieand. They know that, and they call it a fast warm up modification. It plays havoc with the 351c's cooling system.



What you DO want to do with the pressure tester is verify that your system holds 16psi.

You also need to verify that you have a 16psi cap and that it is sealing properly.

If it isn't then you are running with atmospheric pressure to the system and the car WILL boil over.

You WILL HEAR THE PUMP PRESSURIZE THE SYSTEM WHEN YOU DO THIS. It is very audible.


There has been some issue with replacement caps not being long enough to push the sealing gasket against the seat in the Panteras tank. You need to verify that it does fully close the cap otherwise you are running at atmospheric pressures which on this chart would be zero psi.



What the 16psi cap does is raise the boiling over point of a 50/50 mixture.

Boiling points: water @ 212 F at atmospheric

50/50 @ 220 with 50/50 water/anti-freeze at atmospheric pressure ( = zero psi)

50/50 @ 250 F @ 16 psi.

Each addition psi raises the boiling point 2-3 degrees F.

DO NOT go over 16psi with the Pantera system. It will hold somewhere around 20 BUT the risk of failure of a component like the radiator from expansion and contraction due to the additional pressurization isn't worth it. If you are boiling over with a 16 psi system at 250 F then you have more serious problems.

The Harbor Freight kit seems to be very complete. I got mine on sale for $84.99 and I think I was able to use an additional coupon which got the price down even more. I don't have a need for all the additional attachments but maybe someday. Regardless, for the purpose of pressurizing the Panteras system to push the coolant through and the air out it's the "Cats Meow"!

Here is the instruction page that lists some of vehicles it works with. I used # 8 and #10 on my car with the additional washer and rubber gasket I made. I probably should also say that it is a bit of a slow process. I had to fill the swirl tank and pressurize it multiple times. Once I had coolant draining from the drain cocks in the block I closed them off and continued filling, pressurizing, running the drill for a bit, and then repeating the process. Also once the system was mostly full, and under pressure, I went back and purged the radiator a couple more times to ensure I had all the air out if it. Finally you get to a point where it wont take any more coolant and it pumps up to pressure within 10 pumps or so and stays there. I was able to get 5 gallons in my car plus about a half gallon in the overflow tank, without starting the engine.

Steve

Looks like a nice kit.

quote:

The other thing that you MUST do in a Pantera is the water pump that you put in MUST have the fast warm up bleed hole in it.

The Wieand pump does not and it must be added.

Without that bypass hole the Pantera WILL overheat and you won't find the cause.

For some reason the bypass hole is not drilled by Wieand. They know that, and they call it a fast warm up modification. It plays havoc with the 351c's cooling system.

Doug - I'd love more info about why the water pump bypass is necessary. I've had a Weiand water pump on my Pantera for about 10 years and never had it over heat. The Weiand pump does allow you to run a 351W thermostat, although I still have the correct 351C thermostat in my car.

Thanks!
Garth

The bypass allows coolant to circulate through the block during warm up prior to the thermostat opening. Two important advantages.

First, it reduces the incidence of boiling coolant in hotter sections of the engine before the coolant adjacent the thermostat reaches a high enough temperature to open.

Second, it reduces thermal shock that can cause metal warp or crack. You have noncirculating coolant in the head boiling while the coolant near the thermostat is gradually warming. Then finally, the thermostat opens and the hot coolant rushes out. It is replaced with cold coolant quenching the hot metal quickly. Eventually, the cooler coolant reaches the thermostat and the process repeats, albeit with less of a temp delta until finally the coolant is hot enough to keep the thermostat open.

This tough on all components including gaskets.

My Edlebrock water pump does have the bypass circulation hole in it. I think that the bypass hole is what allowed me to use my water pump arbor and drill to circulate coolant and purge the air from the engine. But for that to happen I first had to get enough coolant into the engine by venting air at the drain cocks I put in the block to hear it slosh around when I turned the water pump by hand.

Steve

If you disconnect the heater hose from the fitting on the block and fill the system until coolant appears you will have almost completely filled the engine so will have minimum amount of air to purge.

quote:

Originally posted by garth66:

quote:

The other thing that you MUST do in a Pantera is the water pump that you put in MUST have the fast warm up bleed hole in it.

The Wieand pump does not and it must be added.

Without that bypass hole the Pantera WILL overheat and you won't find the cause.

For some reason the bypass hole is not drilled by Wieand. They know that, and they call it a fast warm up modification. It plays havoc with the 351c's cooling system.

Doug - I'd love more info about why the water pump bypass is necessary. I've had a Weiand water pump on my Pantera for about 10 years and never had it over heat. The Weiand pump does allow you to run a 351W thermostat, although I still have the correct 351C thermostat in my car.

Thanks!
Garth

My car with the Wieand as delivered would show on the temp gauge exactly what JT described. This plus a cap that was not sealing played havoc.

It took a while for me to figure out both of the problems.

Neither is initially easy to diagnose.

It's ironic because I had a Wieand in my Mustang for years and it showed no issues.

The Pantera however was immediately erratic as all heck.

I also pressure test all new caps with the kit. I have had several that were defective out of the box brand new.


Wieand doesn't want to hear anything about this, but it is really simple to add the hole. All you need to do is drill a 5/16" hole into the undrilled casting in the pump housing.



As far as the drain cocks in the block, I learned that was a good idea years ago. When you want to pull off a cylinder head, those help tremendously in keeping the anti-freeze from spilling out and into the cylinder bore. It's an old racers trick that helps in a quick engine tear down in the pits.

You just need to remember they are in the car. For another mechanic working on your car would not look for them or expect them to be in there. Sometimes you only see what you expect to see?

Seems to me the best way to fill a cooling system or purge a "full" one would be to pull a vacuum. All the air would expand out leaving only water. Never tried it or seen it mentioned. Turns out Sears (and many others I'm sure) sell a kit for just that:
http://www.sears.com/u-view-ai...ockNo=3&blockType=G3
Anybody tried using a vacuum?

I have a vac setup from Mighty Vac if i remember right. I can draw a vacuum on the system and let it set for a while. Tests for leaks and draws the air out. An attachment allows you to fill it with coolant at the same time.

This is one of those units:

http://www.amazon.com/UView-55...hecker/dp/B0002SRH5G

It creates a vacuum in the cooling system, then allows the vacuum to draw coolant into the system. It was discussed some time ago on the POCA e-mail forum and the comments were all positive.

quote:

Originally posted by rbarkley671:
Seems to me the best way to fill a cooling system or purge a "full" one would be to pull a vacuum. All the air would expand out leaving only water. Never tried it or seen it mentioned. Turns out Sears (and many others I'm sure) sell a kit for just that:
http://www.sears.com/u-view-ai...ockNo=3&blockType=G3
Anybody tried using a vacuum?

Funny you mention that. I had my tank and vacuum pumped doing that very thing last weekend. I have a float vent used on heated floor systems and a one way valve. I pulled off the hose and hooked the vacuum directly to the heated floor float vent. These are designed to let air out but they have a float which closes when the air is out:

quote:

Originally posted by David_Nunn:
This is one of those units:

http://www.amazon.com/UView-55...hecker/dp/B0002SRH5G

That looks like the one I linked from Sears (but somehow the link is now no good). Fantastic reviews on Amazon.

Seems like you could DIY a setup for a lot less. Hooking a vacuum source to the outlet of the swirl tank and then sucking the "replacement" fluid in from there or another "port" would seam to work as well.

But, how do you get the appropriate vacuum? A Mitivac (or similar) vacuum pump will pull about a 25 in vacuum level (about 83%). That may be enough, I don't know. Harbor Freight has some options that will do better:
http://www.harborfreight.com/a...onnectors-96677.html
uses compressed air (90 psi) to get a vacuum level of 28.3" of Mercury (about 95% of normal atmospheric pressure) for $18 or, if you want to service your A/C to the best, you can get this: http://www.harborfreight.com/2...cuum-pump-98076.html for &100 (which is what I have) that will pull a 75 micron (about 99.99%) vacuum. This will "boil" water at room temp and evaporate any water out of your A/C system. Not sure if it will boil an anti-freeze solution but that probably isn't important, only .01 of the volume of air in your system should remain after refilling the evacuated space. As Aristotle is said to have said, "Nature abhors a vacuum."



fre

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:

quote:

Originally posted by rbarkley671:
Seems to me the best way to fill a cooling system or purge a "full" one would be to pull a vacuum. All the air would expand out leaving only water. Never tried it or seen it mentioned. Turns out Sears (and many others I'm sure) sell a kit for just that:
http://www.sears.com/u-view-ai...ockNo=3&blockType=G3
Anybody tried using a vacuum?

Funny you mention that. I had my tank and vacuum pumped doing that very thing last weekend. I have a float vent used on heated floor systems and a one way valve. I pulled off the hose and hooked the vacuum directly to the heated floor float vent. These are designed to let air out but they have a float which closes when the air is out:

It was the Webers that sucked all the air out.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:


It was the Webers that sucked all the air out.

Where did that nut go? DOh!

Great picture! You should enlarge & frame it, seriously.

I suggest being careful pulling much vacuum on cooling systems. Simple waterpump seals do not work well in both directions and they're designed to hold about 25 psi positive but much less pressure negative. Panteras have trouble with their radiator cap fluid recovery systems that only operate at 3- 5 psi negative. You might find air in a system that results from pulling air in at the pump or the cap, if you pull too hard. Might be OK, but....

looking at this old thread, T. do you have any more pics of how you mounted the fans to your radiator? That's my project this week.

I found this picture. I started with 1/4" plate and machined it to what you see. I don't think I took any pictures of the process though. I can get you more pictures tomorrow if you like.

Steve

Something else to consider is this if you have the system drained. I added this support to the front section of pipes.

2

I've had great success using this "Air Lift Cooling System Leak Checker and Purge Tool Kit" on completely dry or partially dry cooling systems. It pulls all the air out, has a vacuum gauge to test for leaks and uses the vacuum created by the tool to fill the system with coolant. I believe there was already a discussion on this perticular tool in the forum somewhere.

The last time I did this, I used my friend's equipment to do the job at his shop. It's Matco's version of the same tool and just a little more expensive.

You need to chrome that 2x4 that you are using to jack up the car (at the bottom of page 3).

Your system looks great!

Rocky

I like those brackets. Are those screws holding them to the radiator?

Yes little button head allens. I think they were 3mm. I hand drilled and tapped the radiator top and bottom and used a little blue locktite. They have been on there for a while with no issues. I saw one done similar that used pop rivets but I like my allens.

Steve

Are you using rocker stud girdles, thus the reason for the Blue Thunder valve covers?...Mark