The new mustang has a great DOHC 5.0 V8. Any chance that might bolt into a Pantera or Mangusta?
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412 horse, only one way to find out. I say go for it!!!
I'd take some very careful measurements first before assuming it is a bolt in. Worry about height, length, and width at engine mount height and cooling outlet locations. What are you going to have to do to get the electronics grafted in to the wiring harness? What about starter/exhaust fitment and oil filter placement? Access to belts and hoses? Then you get into "the might as well". I currently have Wilkinson installing a 5.4 mod motor in mine and it isn't exactly a bolt-in many thousands of dollars later. Granted I have special circumstances with a dry sump, supercharger, clutch change, and starter location modifications.
The new 5.0 coyote has the same bellhousing as the 4.6 modular, and very similar length (it had to be built on the same tooling, so the bore spacing is the exact same as the 4.6 and 5.4). FRPP sells a computer, harness, throttle, mass air sensor, etc. in a kit specifically for the 5.0. The 4.6 and the new 5.0 use the same bellhousing and motor mounts, if anyone cares.
I see the following needed:
1. Fabricated motor mounts.
2. Adapted intake manifold or throttle body. Either figure out if you can turn the current one around (like the guy who put the LS motor in his Pantera) or figure out how to make the stock throttle body location to work.
3. 4.6 Bellhousing (not hard to find). Clutch stuff shouldn't be that hard, since there are plenty of 4.6 Panteras around.
4. Either modified or fabricated headers. Custom exhaust plates if you have to fabricate.
5. Clearanced inner fenders or head(possibly) similar to the 4.6 swap modification of the rear right head, etc.
6. Fuel system modifications.
7. Coolant system provisions.
I see the forward-facing throttle body as the biggest challenge. Just my thoughts.
Corey
I see the following needed:
1. Fabricated motor mounts.
2. Adapted intake manifold or throttle body. Either figure out if you can turn the current one around (like the guy who put the LS motor in his Pantera) or figure out how to make the stock throttle body location to work.
3. 4.6 Bellhousing (not hard to find). Clutch stuff shouldn't be that hard, since there are plenty of 4.6 Panteras around.
4. Either modified or fabricated headers. Custom exhaust plates if you have to fabricate.
5. Clearanced inner fenders or head(possibly) similar to the 4.6 swap modification of the rear right head, etc.
6. Fuel system modifications.
7. Coolant system provisions.
I see the forward-facing throttle body as the biggest challenge. Just my thoughts.
Corey
I have been thinking about doing a modular motor in my car lately. I love my motor, but the smog issues and low milage (8.5 MPG) are starting to become frustrating. As a bonus I believe the modern motor will also help with cooling and AC issues.
I have a friend that owns a shop that does motor swaps (imports mostly) that can help, and he has a Mustang guy on staff.
That new 5.0 Mustang crate motor looks awesome.
I have a friend that owns a shop that does motor swaps (imports mostly) that can help, and he has a Mustang guy on staff.
That new 5.0 Mustang crate motor looks awesome.
What would this swap cost?
quote:Originally posted by Cuvee:
What would this swap cost?
Hopefully someone that has done the swap will comment on the actual swap costs.
My guess is the total cost is between $5000 and infinity depending on what motor and who does the work. The new 5.0 liter Mustang motor is available as a crate motor for $7,000 minus wiring harness ($1800) and maybe alternator.
quote:Originally posted by RobertVegas:quote:Originally posted by Cuvee:
What would this swap cost?
Hopefully someone that has done the swap will comment on the actual swap costs.
My guess is the total cost is between $5000 and infinity depending on what motor and who does the work. The new 5.0 liter Mustang motor is available as a crate motor for $7,000 minus wiring harness ($1800) and maybe alternator.
I'll bet the cost could rise up ward to $20gs or more? lol I'll never know, to rich for me! lol
I just read the article on the development of the Coyote motor and it sounds fantastic. So much research and development went into this motor. The cost of the crate engine is $7000, the harness is $1800, and the alternator is $245. I just have to find someone who knows how to make the swap. The Pantera would be brought to the 21st century with this motor. Good power and realiability what more can you ask for. check the article out. http://www.mustang50magazine.c...ect_performance.html
I believe we will be using this motor in our Meteor. Seems like an amazing motor. Now its just finding an aftermarket ECU that will do quad cams that doesnt cost $5000.
I think Ford sells an ECU for use with this engine as a standalone install.
quote:Originally posted by Cuvee:
What would this swap cost?
I remembered that Scott of www.saccrestorations.net recently did a LS3 swap in his Pantera. I went back a read through his thread on it and he estimates that his total out of pocket expense was around 5K net after selling off some of his 351C parts, etc.
I would think that one could come somewhere close in price when doing a modular swap with the new ford. Obviously, the cost of the new modular is going to be a major factor. Just my two cents.
Click Here for ZO6 Pantera's LS3 Swap
I think that $7000 is being optimistic unless you plan on doing the work by yourself or have connections with someone who will do it for you! Fabrication work gets to be very expensive!
Dennis,
I agree – the price could get extremely high if you did not do the work and fabrication yourself. A fabrication shop down the street from me gets around $100 an hour.
It doesn’t take long to rack up a large bill in doing a major conversion at those rates.
I agree – the price could get extremely high if you did not do the work and fabrication yourself. A fabrication shop down the street from me gets around $100 an hour.
It doesn’t take long to rack up a large bill in doing a major conversion at those rates.
quote:Originally posted by forestg:
I think Ford sells an ECU for use with this engine as a standalone install.
I have read that they sell one for use with this motor but we plan to do a few things that would send a stock ECU for loops. A Motec 800 could control it but would cost $5000 alone.
So I'm thinking of swapping this motor into my Pantera. It appears that I need to update the concept in this thread. I would need:
1. 4.6 motor mounts from Wilkinson. 5.0 Coyotes use the same motor mounts as the 4.6.
2. Bellhousing modifications for the 4.6 by Wilkinson. Again, the Coyotes use the 4.6 bellhousing.
3. Flip the intake 180 degrees. I'm going to call Ford Racing Part's hotline to discuss. I'll also post a couple pictures showing the intake and the fact that it looks perfectly symmetrical. I'll have to modify the wiring harness and probably re-route a line or two.
4. Check to make sure that the engine will fit between frame rails. A call to the hotline should help here.
5. Fabricate headers. Other people attempting a swap with the Coyote have written that the 4.6 DOHC head exhaust port is almost identical in height & location to the 5.0 Coyote. So, I'm considering gettting the headers from Wilkinson for the 4.6 swap and modifying them by cutting the flanges off and welding on new 5.0 Coyote flanges.
6. Install a return-type fuel system. No problem- I'm going to go with a new stainless gas tank anyway, so modifications should be easy.
7. Work out coolant lines. It looks easy, but things like this don't come easy. I'll probably get a stainless coolant line kit from a vendor and adapt/modify it. Coolant system mods look easy, but probably won't be.
8. Wheelhouse to head clearance. Given the deck height of the 5.0 is the same as the 4.6, I bet it's the same issue that the mod motors have. however, the Coyote looks a little more streamlined. I'll post a picture of the back end.
9. A modified high-torque starter for this application by Wilkinson.
10. Custom flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate for the 4.6 since the crank bolt pattern on the 5.0 Coyote is the same as the 8-bolt Cobra crank. All from Wilkinson.
11. Computer, wiring harness, etc. from Ford Racing. It's a complete kit to install the motor, but it does require a drive-by-wire throttle, included.
12. Alternator kit from Ford Racing.
Fun! I'll look into everything and post my results.
1. 4.6 motor mounts from Wilkinson. 5.0 Coyotes use the same motor mounts as the 4.6.
2. Bellhousing modifications for the 4.6 by Wilkinson. Again, the Coyotes use the 4.6 bellhousing.
3. Flip the intake 180 degrees. I'm going to call Ford Racing Part's hotline to discuss. I'll also post a couple pictures showing the intake and the fact that it looks perfectly symmetrical. I'll have to modify the wiring harness and probably re-route a line or two.
4. Check to make sure that the engine will fit between frame rails. A call to the hotline should help here.
5. Fabricate headers. Other people attempting a swap with the Coyote have written that the 4.6 DOHC head exhaust port is almost identical in height & location to the 5.0 Coyote. So, I'm considering gettting the headers from Wilkinson for the 4.6 swap and modifying them by cutting the flanges off and welding on new 5.0 Coyote flanges.
6. Install a return-type fuel system. No problem- I'm going to go with a new stainless gas tank anyway, so modifications should be easy.
7. Work out coolant lines. It looks easy, but things like this don't come easy. I'll probably get a stainless coolant line kit from a vendor and adapt/modify it. Coolant system mods look easy, but probably won't be.
8. Wheelhouse to head clearance. Given the deck height of the 5.0 is the same as the 4.6, I bet it's the same issue that the mod motors have. however, the Coyote looks a little more streamlined. I'll post a picture of the back end.
9. A modified high-torque starter for this application by Wilkinson.
10. Custom flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate for the 4.6 since the crank bolt pattern on the 5.0 Coyote is the same as the 8-bolt Cobra crank. All from Wilkinson.
11. Computer, wiring harness, etc. from Ford Racing. It's a complete kit to install the motor, but it does require a drive-by-wire throttle, included.
12. Alternator kit from Ford Racing.
Fun! I'll look into everything and post my results.
Have you ever actually seen a DOHC 5.4 in a Pantera? It closely resembles a Hemi in its size. It sits higher in the engine bay than a 4.6 which allows the enormous heads to clear the rear inner fender wells. It is also heavier than a 351-C in spite of being all aluminum. At the upcoming Fun Rally in Reno there will be a few of these swaps that can be examined, photographed etc and actual owners that can be quizzed on their day to day driving experiences. As for souping one up, in the April issue of Hot Rod magazine is an article titled 'Got an '05-'11 Mustang? Here's what's gonna break...' with rpms and power levels from actual builders on the various models. Since the Pantera is 600 lbs lighter than a Mustang, the engines are very responsive but if you're not satisfied with 412 bhp, things get real pricey real quick. Finally, in the POCA News a few years ago was an illustrated 2-part how-to installation of a blown 4.6 DOHC in a Pantera by Dave Doddek in Chicago. He kept the EFI and it was an amazing, complex engine swap requiring electronics, engine fab, body & chassis work and specific parts selection to get it into the car and all working over 3 or so months. This is NOT a weekend swap!
Thanks Bosswrench. The new Coyote is almost completely different from the 4.6 modular motors, except for deck height, bore spacing, and rods. It weighs 440 lbs, complete. A 351C with aluminum heads and manifold weigh about the same.
Yes, I'm aware that this is not a weekend swap, but thank you for your input. I need feedback to help me make the decision to go Coyote or Cleveland.
Yes, I'm aware that this is not a weekend swap, but thank you for your input. I need feedback to help me make the decision to go Coyote or Cleveland.
Quick update:
I called the FRPP hotline. The guy I spoke with said that he doesn't have any dimensions. However, the motor is the same dimensions at the oil pan as the 4.6 since Ford wanted a direct bolt-in engine to the Mustang's chassis. Hence the same bellhousing and motor mounts. He said that the oil pan clearances were almost identical to the 4.6. He suggested finding someone with a 2011 GT and measuring actual dimensions.
I asked about flipping the manifold, and he said that he didn't know. He said that the composite intake manifold has a belly to it that may not clear the front water pump casting that is part of the block. However, he did say that there are Boss manifolds coming out in a few months that have no belly. He said that FRPP has the Boss manifolds in stock but can't sell them until the Boss 302 car is available. Such a manifold would take a custom tune, but for those who don't know, this manifold looks like a factory EFI tunnel ram.
I called the FRPP hotline. The guy I spoke with said that he doesn't have any dimensions. However, the motor is the same dimensions at the oil pan as the 4.6 since Ford wanted a direct bolt-in engine to the Mustang's chassis. Hence the same bellhousing and motor mounts. He said that the oil pan clearances were almost identical to the 4.6. He suggested finding someone with a 2011 GT and measuring actual dimensions.
I asked about flipping the manifold, and he said that he didn't know. He said that the composite intake manifold has a belly to it that may not clear the front water pump casting that is part of the block. However, he did say that there are Boss manifolds coming out in a few months that have no belly. He said that FRPP has the Boss manifolds in stock but can't sell them until the Boss 302 car is available. Such a manifold would take a custom tune, but for those who don't know, this manifold looks like a factory EFI tunnel ram.
If the mod motor does not scare you off -- I would definitely do some measurements of the motor if this is at all possible for you. Nothing is impossible with time and money, but if you want to know before you start; you really need some good measurement information. I would not be too concerned with oil pan or block -- I would be more concerned with the location of the cylinder heads in the engine bay -- and how high the intake manifold sits under the rear deck lid. Wilkinson would be a great resource if everything checks out. He has done a custom intake manifold that is absolutely wild on his own 5.4L mod motor. His intake manifold was built in a way that has to be seen to be believed, but he saved a lot of space so the engine fits under the rear deck lid so it does not hit or need to be cut; very impressive. He's got the truck block -- so I do not know the differences between it and the 5.0L Coyote motor; and he probably does not know either; but you could sure ask. He has done lots of cool stuff to mod motors and has seen or done it all -- so again, he is a great resource for all things mod motors.
That's my $0.02. I wish you the best of luck and I do not see why it would not work as well. The only unknown is how much it will cost. I would say that if the parts cost X, then the fabbing of everything can easily cost the same; it really depends on how much you can do yourself.
Cheers,
Mark
That's my $0.02. I wish you the best of luck and I do not see why it would not work as well. The only unknown is how much it will cost. I would say that if the parts cost X, then the fabbing of everything can easily cost the same; it really depends on how much you can do yourself.
Cheers,
Mark
So, the new Boss parts are now available on FRPP.
Here's the intake:
http://www.fordracingparts.com...p?PartKeyField=12559
It looks like it may fit backwards, if the ports are symmetrical.
Here's the intake:
http://www.fordracingparts.com...p?PartKeyField=12559
It looks like it may fit backwards, if the ports are symmetrical.
Here's a picture of the underside of the stock intake. You can also see other components of the engine at the bottom of the page.
http://www.mustang50magazine.c...engine/photo_53.html
http://www.mustang50magazine.c...engine/photo_53.html
Corey, (or anyone who has done the 4.6 swap)
Is the length of the 4.6, or the Coyote similar to the 351C? Does it take the same amount of room sticking into the cab, or is it, perhaps, shorter--allowing one to not need the bubbled engine hatch? It seems like reclaiming that room in the cab might be an additional advantage.
Is the length of the 4.6, or the Coyote similar to the 351C? Does it take the same amount of room sticking into the cab, or is it, perhaps, shorter--allowing one to not need the bubbled engine hatch? It seems like reclaiming that room in the cab might be an additional advantage.
Yes, the 4.6 swaps allow for a flat bulkhead.
Here's a like to a 4.6 DOHC swap, with some better info:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rlbpantera/
The 5.0 Coyote is definitely more advanced and more powerful, yet lighter and more compact than the 4.6 DOHC Modular.
Here's a like to a 4.6 DOHC swap, with some better info:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rlbpantera/
The 5.0 Coyote is definitely more advanced and more powerful, yet lighter and more compact than the 4.6 DOHC Modular.
Mark,
Awesome comes to mind -- along with easy starts every time and smooth running; most of the time.
I just wonder what the Coyote cylinder head will be as I do not know if the blocks are exactly the same as the 4.6; but they may very well be. Going from 4.6 to 5.0 is not much of a stretch after all.....
Best of luck -- looks great.
Mark
Awesome comes to mind -- along with easy starts every time and smooth running; most of the time.
I just wonder what the Coyote cylinder head will be as I do not know if the blocks are exactly the same as the 4.6; but they may very well be. Going from 4.6 to 5.0 is not much of a stretch after all.....
Best of luck -- looks great.
Mark
If flipping the intake is the problem, why not stick to a carb. intake. GM has an LS3 with carburation intake, and MSD stand alone kit, that brings another 120 BHP on EFI.
http://www.barleyauto.com/GM_Engine_Showcase.html
http://www.barleyauto.com/GM_Engine_Showcase.html
Or just go with the ls376/480. 480HP, 475Lbs torque. 410 pounds. Fits great and best price/performance around. 6.2 of smooth running power and affordable. The carb version is 515hp.
I'm not really interested in the LS motors, but it sounds like it works great. I give credit to GM for keeping the simple pushrod motor.
The new 5.0 Coyote has great potential, given that the motor has been under-rated already. It weighs 440 lbs, and tuners are increasing horspower up to the 470 range already.
Being mostly a guy who likes Fords, I'm gravitating to a Ford-related option. As far as good bang-for-the-buck, I find it hard to compete with the Cleveland in the Pantera, honestly. If you want fuel injection, better reliability, longevity, etc, then you can open the doors to quite a few other options.
On Sunday, my brother offered to give me his supercharger from his '08 Shelby GT500. He has the larger supercharger on it already. I don't know how the supercharger could be used.
The new 5.0 Coyote has great potential, given that the motor has been under-rated already. It weighs 440 lbs, and tuners are increasing horspower up to the 470 range already.
Being mostly a guy who likes Fords, I'm gravitating to a Ford-related option. As far as good bang-for-the-buck, I find it hard to compete with the Cleveland in the Pantera, honestly. If you want fuel injection, better reliability, longevity, etc, then you can open the doors to quite a few other options.
On Sunday, my brother offered to give me his supercharger from his '08 Shelby GT500. He has the larger supercharger on it already. I don't know how the supercharger could be used.
Drop the car, motor, and major parts off at my place and I will put it in just to do it. If I can design and fabricate a supercharger system for a Mark VIII motor and stuff it in a Pantera, the Coyote should be a breeze.
good morning guys...im just jumping in here like i own the place...but i would love to see you keep this thread going. its self serving. I have a teksid-based 4.6 with downdraft efi mocked up for my 72...I agree the 5.0 is a gonna be a great motor. is a great motor...im just thinking the aftermarket support has some catching up to do. i guess it depends if you want a stock-ish setup. Im looking for 475 horse or so, so im going at least stroked, maybe overbored, with some compression, aftermarket heads and cams, and stand alone efi...i dont think the coyote is there yet, but it will be soon. and if it is there, its gonna be REALLY expensive to do. thats my initial reaction...
If my rebuild on my 351C came apart I would seriously consider doing a conversion like Scott's ZO6 Pantera. I know this is probably blasphemy to the true Pantera purist but I have always have had a fondness for the Chevy motor.
With that said, I guess going with anything besides a 351C would be blasphemy to a true Pantera purist even if it was a Ford modular.
With that said, I guess going with anything besides a 351C would be blasphemy to a true Pantera purist even if it was a Ford modular.
quote:Originally posted by Garvino:
If my rebuild on my 351C came apart I would seriously consider doing a conversion like Scott's ZO6 Pantera. I know this is probably blasphemy to the true Pantera purist but I have always have had a fondness for the Chevy motor.
With that said, I guess going with anything besides a 351C would be blasphemy to a true Pantera purist even if it was a Ford modular.
Yes, it seems blasphemy to consider, but there have been dozens of cars converted to modular and windsors, probably dozens converted to big blocks, and dozens converted to other engines like BMW, GM LS, Ford FE big blocks, etc.
I realize that the 351 Cleveland is a good 40-year-old motor, but technology keeps getting better. Plus, Ford hasn't made 351 Cleveland blocks in nearly 30 years, and they will probably continue to become scarcer.
On the other hand, the Coyote is designed for longevity, power, direct injection and turbocharging/supercharging. Ford sees the coyote powerplant as a long-term investment, which probably means 10 to 20 years of production.
I'm thinking that my son will want a little more modern engine when he inherits the car, but I've also realized that the engine may decrease the value at some future point.
Has anyone seen this kit for the LS3?
http://paceperformance.com/i-6...charger-package.html
638HP. Pretty awesome engine setup for Around 13 grand.
Chris Bell
http://paceperformance.com/i-6...charger-package.html
638HP. Pretty awesome engine setup for Around 13 grand.
Chris Bell
I agree with Corey on the technology of new motors and also the scarcity of 351C parts. When I rebuilt my 351C I was a little shocked on how expensive parts were. I also was shocked at how hard it was to find some pretty basic stuff.
A Pantera purist may think you have devalued your car with a Coyote motor. However, look at all the restomoded 67 Camaros & Mustangs that have been converted to modern drivetrains that still demand big money when they come up for sale in this economy.
I did not buy my Pantera to make a ton of money on it. I did buy it to enjoy it and drive it (if I ever get it finished). I also felt that I could rebuild my car and not end up too upside down in it.
From what I have seen the decent Panteras seem to hold there value. I know that every once in a while a fluke auction deal shows up and shocks all of us at how relatively inexpensive it went for, but I feel overall that they seem to stay pretty consistent.
I say go for the Coyote if that is what your heart desires.
A Pantera purist may think you have devalued your car with a Coyote motor. However, look at all the restomoded 67 Camaros & Mustangs that have been converted to modern drivetrains that still demand big money when they come up for sale in this economy.
I did not buy my Pantera to make a ton of money on it. I did buy it to enjoy it and drive it (if I ever get it finished). I also felt that I could rebuild my car and not end up too upside down in it.
From what I have seen the decent Panteras seem to hold there value. I know that every once in a while a fluke auction deal shows up and shocks all of us at how relatively inexpensive it went for, but I feel overall that they seem to stay pretty consistent.
I say go for the Coyote if that is what your heart desires.
Cool set up! Mount the super charger backwards and run it with a jack shaft?
quote:Originally posted by Cuvee:
Cool set up! Mount the super charger backwards and run it with a jack shaft?
You probably meant the LS motor.
The Coyote is similar in length to the 4.6 modular since they share the same bore spacing. People have supercharged the 4.6 and 5.4 in the Pantera and it works just fine driven from the crank.
On a different note, I see that companies are claiming a gain of 30 rear wheel horsepower with long-tube headers and an X-pipe on 2011 Mustang GT's with the 5.0 Coyote. A custom re-programming or "tune" will net around 10 hp. Seeing that the motor appears underrated given the rear wheel dyno numbers, I think one could expect 470+ flywheel horsepower in a Pantera, maybe a little more with the fancy Boss intake. Superchargers are putting the motor past 600 hp.
I found someone who has access to the 5.0 Coyote crate motor! Dimensions may follow. Maybe just dementia...
We should be able to see if it's going to fit. Maybe I can slick talk him into removing the manifold to see if it will turn 180 degrees, but that's probably just pushing it. With these two key pieces of info, we could have a 470+ HP 5.0 motor in a Pantera!
We should be able to see if it's going to fit. Maybe I can slick talk him into removing the manifold to see if it will turn 180 degrees, but that's probably just pushing it. With these two key pieces of info, we could have a 470+ HP 5.0 motor in a Pantera!