The new mustang has a great DOHC 5.0 V8. Any chance that might bolt into a Pantera or Mangusta?
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412 horse, only one way to find out. I say go for it!!!
I'd take some very careful measurements first before assuming it is a bolt in. Worry about height, length, and width at engine mount height and cooling outlet locations. What are you going to have to do to get the electronics grafted in to the wiring harness? What about starter/exhaust fitment and oil filter placement? Access to belts and hoses? Then you get into "the might as well". I currently have Wilkinson installing a 5.4 mod motor in mine and it isn't exactly a bolt-in many thousands of dollars later. Granted I have special circumstances with a dry sump, supercharger, clutch change, and starter location modifications.
The new 5.0 coyote has the same bellhousing as the 4.6 modular, and very similar length (it had to be built on the same tooling, so the bore spacing is the exact same as the 4.6 and 5.4). FRPP sells a computer, harness, throttle, mass air sensor, etc. in a kit specifically for the 5.0. The 4.6 and the new 5.0 use the same bellhousing and motor mounts, if anyone cares.
I see the following needed:
1. Fabricated motor mounts.
2. Adapted intake manifold or throttle body. Either figure out if you can turn the current one around (like the guy who put the LS motor in his Pantera) or figure out how to make the stock throttle body location to work.
3. 4.6 Bellhousing (not hard to find). Clutch stuff shouldn't be that hard, since there are plenty of 4.6 Panteras around.
4. Either modified or fabricated headers. Custom exhaust plates if you have to fabricate.
5. Clearanced inner fenders or head(possibly) similar to the 4.6 swap modification of the rear right head, etc.
6. Fuel system modifications.
7. Coolant system provisions.
I see the forward-facing throttle body as the biggest challenge. Just my thoughts.
Corey
I see the following needed:
1. Fabricated motor mounts.
2. Adapted intake manifold or throttle body. Either figure out if you can turn the current one around (like the guy who put the LS motor in his Pantera) or figure out how to make the stock throttle body location to work.
3. 4.6 Bellhousing (not hard to find). Clutch stuff shouldn't be that hard, since there are plenty of 4.6 Panteras around.
4. Either modified or fabricated headers. Custom exhaust plates if you have to fabricate.
5. Clearanced inner fenders or head(possibly) similar to the 4.6 swap modification of the rear right head, etc.
6. Fuel system modifications.
7. Coolant system provisions.
I see the forward-facing throttle body as the biggest challenge. Just my thoughts.
Corey
I have been thinking about doing a modular motor in my car lately. I love my motor, but the smog issues and low milage (8.5 MPG) are starting to become frustrating. As a bonus I believe the modern motor will also help with cooling and AC issues.
I have a friend that owns a shop that does motor swaps (imports mostly) that can help, and he has a Mustang guy on staff.
That new 5.0 Mustang crate motor looks awesome.
I have a friend that owns a shop that does motor swaps (imports mostly) that can help, and he has a Mustang guy on staff.
That new 5.0 Mustang crate motor looks awesome.
What would this swap cost?
quote:Originally posted by Cuvee:
What would this swap cost?
Hopefully someone that has done the swap will comment on the actual swap costs.
My guess is the total cost is between $5000 and infinity depending on what motor and who does the work. The new 5.0 liter Mustang motor is available as a crate motor for $7,000 minus wiring harness ($1800) and maybe alternator.
quote:Originally posted by RobertVegas:quote:Originally posted by Cuvee:
What would this swap cost?
Hopefully someone that has done the swap will comment on the actual swap costs.
My guess is the total cost is between $5000 and infinity depending on what motor and who does the work. The new 5.0 liter Mustang motor is available as a crate motor for $7,000 minus wiring harness ($1800) and maybe alternator.
I'll bet the cost could rise up ward to $20gs or more? lol I'll never know, to rich for me! lol
I just read the article on the development of the Coyote motor and it sounds fantastic. So much research and development went into this motor. The cost of the crate engine is $7000, the harness is $1800, and the alternator is $245. I just have to find someone who knows how to make the swap. The Pantera would be brought to the 21st century with this motor. Good power and realiability what more can you ask for. check the article out. http://www.mustang50magazine.c...ect_performance.html
I believe we will be using this motor in our Meteor. Seems like an amazing motor. Now its just finding an aftermarket ECU that will do quad cams that doesnt cost $5000.
I think Ford sells an ECU for use with this engine as a standalone install.
quote:Originally posted by Cuvee:
What would this swap cost?
I remembered that Scott of www.saccrestorations.net recently did a LS3 swap in his Pantera. I went back a read through his thread on it and he estimates that his total out of pocket expense was around 5K net after selling off some of his 351C parts, etc.
I would think that one could come somewhere close in price when doing a modular swap with the new ford. Obviously, the cost of the new modular is going to be a major factor. Just my two cents.
Click Here for ZO6 Pantera's LS3 Swap
I think that $7000 is being optimistic unless you plan on doing the work by yourself or have connections with someone who will do it for you! Fabrication work gets to be very expensive!
Dennis,
I agree – the price could get extremely high if you did not do the work and fabrication yourself. A fabrication shop down the street from me gets around $100 an hour.
It doesn’t take long to rack up a large bill in doing a major conversion at those rates.
I agree – the price could get extremely high if you did not do the work and fabrication yourself. A fabrication shop down the street from me gets around $100 an hour.
It doesn’t take long to rack up a large bill in doing a major conversion at those rates.
quote:Originally posted by forestg:
I think Ford sells an ECU for use with this engine as a standalone install.
I have read that they sell one for use with this motor but we plan to do a few things that would send a stock ECU for loops. A Motec 800 could control it but would cost $5000 alone.
So I'm thinking of swapping this motor into my Pantera. It appears that I need to update the concept in this thread. I would need:
1. 4.6 motor mounts from Wilkinson. 5.0 Coyotes use the same motor mounts as the 4.6.
2. Bellhousing modifications for the 4.6 by Wilkinson. Again, the Coyotes use the 4.6 bellhousing.
3. Flip the intake 180 degrees. I'm going to call Ford Racing Part's hotline to discuss. I'll also post a couple pictures showing the intake and the fact that it looks perfectly symmetrical. I'll have to modify the wiring harness and probably re-route a line or two.
4. Check to make sure that the engine will fit between frame rails. A call to the hotline should help here.
5. Fabricate headers. Other people attempting a swap with the Coyote have written that the 4.6 DOHC head exhaust port is almost identical in height & location to the 5.0 Coyote. So, I'm considering gettting the headers from Wilkinson for the 4.6 swap and modifying them by cutting the flanges off and welding on new 5.0 Coyote flanges.
6. Install a return-type fuel system. No problem- I'm going to go with a new stainless gas tank anyway, so modifications should be easy.
7. Work out coolant lines. It looks easy, but things like this don't come easy. I'll probably get a stainless coolant line kit from a vendor and adapt/modify it. Coolant system mods look easy, but probably won't be.
8. Wheelhouse to head clearance. Given the deck height of the 5.0 is the same as the 4.6, I bet it's the same issue that the mod motors have. however, the Coyote looks a little more streamlined. I'll post a picture of the back end.
9. A modified high-torque starter for this application by Wilkinson.
10. Custom flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate for the 4.6 since the crank bolt pattern on the 5.0 Coyote is the same as the 8-bolt Cobra crank. All from Wilkinson.
11. Computer, wiring harness, etc. from Ford Racing. It's a complete kit to install the motor, but it does require a drive-by-wire throttle, included.
12. Alternator kit from Ford Racing.
Fun! I'll look into everything and post my results.
1. 4.6 motor mounts from Wilkinson. 5.0 Coyotes use the same motor mounts as the 4.6.
2. Bellhousing modifications for the 4.6 by Wilkinson. Again, the Coyotes use the 4.6 bellhousing.
3. Flip the intake 180 degrees. I'm going to call Ford Racing Part's hotline to discuss. I'll also post a couple pictures showing the intake and the fact that it looks perfectly symmetrical. I'll have to modify the wiring harness and probably re-route a line or two.
4. Check to make sure that the engine will fit between frame rails. A call to the hotline should help here.
5. Fabricate headers. Other people attempting a swap with the Coyote have written that the 4.6 DOHC head exhaust port is almost identical in height & location to the 5.0 Coyote. So, I'm considering gettting the headers from Wilkinson for the 4.6 swap and modifying them by cutting the flanges off and welding on new 5.0 Coyote flanges.
6. Install a return-type fuel system. No problem- I'm going to go with a new stainless gas tank anyway, so modifications should be easy.
7. Work out coolant lines. It looks easy, but things like this don't come easy. I'll probably get a stainless coolant line kit from a vendor and adapt/modify it. Coolant system mods look easy, but probably won't be.
8. Wheelhouse to head clearance. Given the deck height of the 5.0 is the same as the 4.6, I bet it's the same issue that the mod motors have. however, the Coyote looks a little more streamlined. I'll post a picture of the back end.
9. A modified high-torque starter for this application by Wilkinson.
10. Custom flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate for the 4.6 since the crank bolt pattern on the 5.0 Coyote is the same as the 8-bolt Cobra crank. All from Wilkinson.
11. Computer, wiring harness, etc. from Ford Racing. It's a complete kit to install the motor, but it does require a drive-by-wire throttle, included.
12. Alternator kit from Ford Racing.
Fun! I'll look into everything and post my results.
Have you ever actually seen a DOHC 5.4 in a Pantera? It closely resembles a Hemi in its size. It sits higher in the engine bay than a 4.6 which allows the enormous heads to clear the rear inner fender wells. It is also heavier than a 351-C in spite of being all aluminum. At the upcoming Fun Rally in Reno there will be a few of these swaps that can be examined, photographed etc and actual owners that can be quizzed on their day to day driving experiences. As for souping one up, in the April issue of Hot Rod magazine is an article titled 'Got an '05-'11 Mustang? Here's what's gonna break...' with rpms and power levels from actual builders on the various models. Since the Pantera is 600 lbs lighter than a Mustang, the engines are very responsive but if you're not satisfied with 412 bhp, things get real pricey real quick. Finally, in the POCA News a few years ago was an illustrated 2-part how-to installation of a blown 4.6 DOHC in a Pantera by Dave Doddek in Chicago. He kept the EFI and it was an amazing, complex engine swap requiring electronics, engine fab, body & chassis work and specific parts selection to get it into the car and all working over 3 or so months. This is NOT a weekend swap!
Thanks Bosswrench. The new Coyote is almost completely different from the 4.6 modular motors, except for deck height, bore spacing, and rods. It weighs 440 lbs, complete. A 351C with aluminum heads and manifold weigh about the same.
Yes, I'm aware that this is not a weekend swap, but thank you for your input. I need feedback to help me make the decision to go Coyote or Cleveland.
Yes, I'm aware that this is not a weekend swap, but thank you for your input. I need feedback to help me make the decision to go Coyote or Cleveland.
Quick update:
I called the FRPP hotline. The guy I spoke with said that he doesn't have any dimensions. However, the motor is the same dimensions at the oil pan as the 4.6 since Ford wanted a direct bolt-in engine to the Mustang's chassis. Hence the same bellhousing and motor mounts. He said that the oil pan clearances were almost identical to the 4.6. He suggested finding someone with a 2011 GT and measuring actual dimensions.
I asked about flipping the manifold, and he said that he didn't know. He said that the composite intake manifold has a belly to it that may not clear the front water pump casting that is part of the block. However, he did say that there are Boss manifolds coming out in a few months that have no belly. He said that FRPP has the Boss manifolds in stock but can't sell them until the Boss 302 car is available. Such a manifold would take a custom tune, but for those who don't know, this manifold looks like a factory EFI tunnel ram.
I called the FRPP hotline. The guy I spoke with said that he doesn't have any dimensions. However, the motor is the same dimensions at the oil pan as the 4.6 since Ford wanted a direct bolt-in engine to the Mustang's chassis. Hence the same bellhousing and motor mounts. He said that the oil pan clearances were almost identical to the 4.6. He suggested finding someone with a 2011 GT and measuring actual dimensions.
I asked about flipping the manifold, and he said that he didn't know. He said that the composite intake manifold has a belly to it that may not clear the front water pump casting that is part of the block. However, he did say that there are Boss manifolds coming out in a few months that have no belly. He said that FRPP has the Boss manifolds in stock but can't sell them until the Boss 302 car is available. Such a manifold would take a custom tune, but for those who don't know, this manifold looks like a factory EFI tunnel ram.
If the mod motor does not scare you off -- I would definitely do some measurements of the motor if this is at all possible for you. Nothing is impossible with time and money, but if you want to know before you start; you really need some good measurement information. I would not be too concerned with oil pan or block -- I would be more concerned with the location of the cylinder heads in the engine bay -- and how high the intake manifold sits under the rear deck lid. Wilkinson would be a great resource if everything checks out. He has done a custom intake manifold that is absolutely wild on his own 5.4L mod motor. His intake manifold was built in a way that has to be seen to be believed, but he saved a lot of space so the engine fits under the rear deck lid so it does not hit or need to be cut; very impressive. He's got the truck block -- so I do not know the differences between it and the 5.0L Coyote motor; and he probably does not know either; but you could sure ask. He has done lots of cool stuff to mod motors and has seen or done it all -- so again, he is a great resource for all things mod motors.
That's my $0.02. I wish you the best of luck and I do not see why it would not work as well. The only unknown is how much it will cost. I would say that if the parts cost X, then the fabbing of everything can easily cost the same; it really depends on how much you can do yourself.
Cheers,
Mark
That's my $0.02. I wish you the best of luck and I do not see why it would not work as well. The only unknown is how much it will cost. I would say that if the parts cost X, then the fabbing of everything can easily cost the same; it really depends on how much you can do yourself.
Cheers,
Mark