Garage/Shop Expansion- Need Engineer/Architect in CA!

Steve, nice building, not like your normal 'not permitted' structures, is the building manufacturer not willing to supply a copy of the plans?

Julian

Even if you are able to get the plan and structural calcs from the building manufacturer, they wont have the foundation plans and engineering.  I bet dollars to donuts the county wants all that information before they will issue a retroactive permit.

Steve why don't you leave the non-permitted building alone and construct a new one instead of expanding the existing.

Building manufacturer likely has no plans from 35-40 years back.....or even who may have built it...... and I have no idea who that gang was!   They really don't even want to talk to private persons....but would rather shovel all of the liabilities off to the builder....who shovels them off to an eng/architect.....who then passes that cost to me.

It is frustrating to deal with all parts of this process.   Mfg'er doesn't want to talk to the end customer, building construction company doesn't want to talk to the end customer, until they go to an eng/contractor to draw up plan$$$.

Concrete guys want plans.....even though they build similar buildings using the same practices for years......  12-16" deep footing, 3-4'x 12-16" reinforcement at the upright supports, and 4-6" pad.

Getting an estimate from ANY of these groups is infuriating.....nothing but excuses and crickets.   Who's on first?  Wouldn't even give me the courtesy of a price per sq-ft estimate based upon present practices......  I guess business is too good......!

OK, I have proposed this as a new building, butted up to my existing to avoid the "addition" thing.  Both local builders and the mfg'ers recommended this to avoid the "addition" thing where you would share a main upright etc and attach to each other accordingly.

So a "letter of (structural) determination" (IMHO) is a way the county is saving money by not hiring an actual engineer that could likely help with issues like mine.  Pass the costs back to the tax payers.   WE BE RUBBERSTAMPIN' SHITE ONLY......    Please forgive my rage......      They can also pass off any liabilities to the poor engineer should something happen.... (it has survived all the earthquakes around here for 40 years......already...)

.....AND, perhaps I am just over thinking it.

Steve

@mangusta posted:

Seller strikes again from the grave

LOL sorry you got stuck w that. Sounds like someone that could be found on buildzoom.com. By the way I have not used their service so I can't offer any review.

scifi, thanks for the link!   I'm thinking that the Pantera crowd is an engineer rich environment......so figured I'd cast out a line and see what happens!
Cheers!
Steve

Steve, Please PM me with your number.  I am an CA Architect and I have experience with metal buildings.  I don't know if I can help directly but am happy to offer advice.

Steve. The "Building Department" just doesn't want liability on ANYTHING. They want someone else to take it, i.e., PE, RA. They will and you will see it in the bill.

They figure "your Architect" is an agent of the state, and let them take the liability.

Here they even hire RA's for "Building Plan Examiners" to dump any mistake on his liability insurance in case he misses something.

I'm an architect and contractor here in NY and it is no longer possible to have a "friend in the building department". They literally "read the 'Riot Act' " to you as my Dad would say and probably would fine their own mothers given the opportunity.

My "friend", who shall remain a nameless head of a local department, took me on the side and explained on the qt, the Fed's have this long list of requirements, EPA amongst them, and they have no qualms about issuing fines on the spot to the local building departments. Fed fines start at $25,000, and go up from there.

So when the locals give you this long list of requirements, they are just protecting their own behinds. There are no Union protections in the management of those departments. One slip and you're out the door and your pension is kaput.

Consider them like a Judge. You wouldn't go into court kicking and screaming unless you want to be gagged, handcuffed and shackled like Bobby Seal of the "Chicago Seven" was. (Yes I know it became the "Chicago Eight" but I'm a traditionalist and stick to originality...mostly sometimes but not always. )

Here, the departments WILL accept manufacturers design specifications on pre-manufactured buildings,etc. Those you should be able to purchase from the original manufacturer. Don't expect to get them for free.

If you can get those you still will need a "survey" showing the property and the building on it, regardless of if it was ever filed before or not.

Your PE or RA will need to give them a "detailed section" showing (as you mentioned) the footings, and slab and if you have any kind of concentrated loads like for car lifts, those details. (pssst...we usually fudge them since no one is going to start digging up the footings and if the building is there 30 years and shows no issues, it isn't going to fall down anytime soon...secret-don't tell anyone).

FYI here the minimum depth to the bottom of the footing is 42" in Westchester and 48" in NYC. What did you say? 16"? Wow. That's a "bargain". Now we need to do hurricane and earthquake "considerations" and your existing building may not be able to conform to the current specs which they will look for at "inspection time".

You want to talk to Italford. Have him explain how he gets all of his cars in his "two car" garage? I wonder if his wife knows he has them all?

It's ok. I can keep a secret. I won't tell her.

...Beautiful Garage!! I'am Envious. I understand, in some Locations, If You go ahead and Build a Structure Without a Permit to Build...You are Immediately Ordered to Tear the Building Down, as well as being Fined! Possibly, even Take-Up the Poured Foundation. I Pray this does NOT happen in Your Case. Perhaps hire a Lawyer and Sue those who Lied and therefore, Misrepresented themselves. Only if You Knew Who they were!?

Good-Luck with It!

Marlin,

In my case, it was the seller (former contractor who  managed to lose his license.....wish I had known that little tidbit BEFORE we signed the papers!) who built this building at least 34-40 years ago.   As I stated above, I believe he is now pushing up thistles somewhere...... so no recourse.

I found some numbers at the end of the roof I-beams, "4572" which are either a job number, or possibly a date.... 45th week of 1972.   I don't work in the industry, so have no idea.....!   Varco Pruden was the mfgr.

I think he had some of the construction done to spec, ie concrete was supposedly inspected......and then just never completed the permit process.......to keep it off the tax rolls......he was a tight ass bastard!!!

OR, the county lost the paperwork.

Since this building was professionally designed and erected, we live in an AG active zone, and due to the timeframe dating back to the wild wild west of expansion here, AND we've been paying taxes on it......I doubt that anyone would go to the trouble of requiring that I tear the building down.  Not good press nor good for their tax roll!

If it came to that point, as soon as the last piece of old concrete was hauled off,  I wheel in 10+ 40' storage containers and weld them all together,  put a canvas roof over it to avoid calling it a permanent structure..... and be happy! 

Cheers!
Steve

"You want to talk to Italford. Have him explain how he gets all of his cars in his "two car" garage? I wonder if his wife knows he has them all?

It's ok. I can keep a secret. I won't tell her."

Doug, you are too funny.  Fortunately I have the best wife in the world.  She actually knows about all my cars and pretty much ignores them.  15 years ago I built a custom home so that we could have more garage space.  Without going into too much detail I currently have 8 indoor spaces and 6 of the spaces are tall enough for a lift so cars can be stacked it needed.

@italford posted:

"You want to talk to Italford. Have him explain how he gets all of his cars in his "two car" garage? I wonder if his wife knows he has them all?

It's ok. I can keep a secret. I won't tell her."

Doug, you are too funny.  Fortunately I have the best wife in the world.  She actually knows about all my cars and pretty much ignores them.  15 years ago I built a custom home so that we could have more garage space.  Without going into too much detail I currently have 8 indoor spaces and 6 of the spaces are tall enough for a lift so cars can be stacked it needed.

You were a visionary in more ways then one!

@mangusta posted:

Marlin,

In my case, it was the seller (former contractor who  managed to lose his license.....wish I had known that little tidbit BEFORE we signed the papers!) who built this building at least 34-40 years ago.   As I stated above, I believe he is now pushing up thistles somewhere...... so no recourse.

I found some numbers at the end of the roof I-beams, "4572" which are either a job number, or possibly a date.... 45th week of 1972.   I don't work in the industry, so have no idea.....!   Varco Pruden was the mfgr.

I think he had some of the construction done to spec, ie concrete was supposedly inspected......and then just never completed the permit process.......to keep it off the tax rolls......he was a tight ass bastard!!!

OR, the county lost the paperwork.

Since this building was professionally designed and erected, we live in an AG active zone, and due to the timeframe dating back to the wild wild west of expansion here, AND we've been paying taxes on it......I doubt that anyone would go to the trouble of requiring that I tear the building down.  Not good press nor good for their tax roll!

If it came to that point, as soon as the last piece of old concrete was hauled off,  I wheel in 10+ 40' storage containers and weld them all together,  put a canvas roof over it to avoid calling it a permanent structure..... and be happy! 

Cheers!
Steve

Temporary structures aren't allowed here. I'm not sure that they ever were but if they were, it was before my time.

Not being specifically familiar with CA procedures, I'd speculate that they will not make you take down anything, just fine you for no permits BUT IF there was a permit opened, but just never completed, that MAY be a different story. They might be more co-operative but don't count on it.

One of our former departments made a habit of never finishing the C of C and the current department just says, "you have to prove you have one". You can't even though everything was passed and you paid for it, because you don't have one and there is none in your "file".

Here there would be two documents the Building Department would issue and those would be a C of C (certificate of completion) which is the most common since it is just for completion of the work that you had a permit for OR a C of O (certificate of occupancy). That one you want to stay away from since they would want everything brought up to current code and even the BD will tell you that is rarely possible even on a 1950 structure.

As an example consider what you know of NYC. Think of the "Brownstone houses" built right up against each other. The NYS "fire code" REQUIRES a minimum of 3 feet between the closest points of buildings. That's now impossible right?

You usually will only get stuck doing that (a C of O) by the "bank" of a new buyer requiring it. Here if it's older then 5 years (C of O) it's common to get pressed on it.

Those suck because there are now EPA things that you now have to prove that you have done like provisions for water drainage on your property. It all has to go into a "drywell" and the bigger your property, the bigger the drywell. Those get VERY expensive.

The depth of the footing here goes according to a freeze chart. The chart here shows a 24" freeze depth and an 18" safety factor on top which gives a total of 42".

Pushbutton got away easy in South Carolina with practically just scratching a line in the dirt for the footing depth. Yikes. Why bother?  Just put it on a slab. It the place floods then you can use it for a concrete boat?

My forte is finding more space in small places. It's kind of like going to the circus and seeing 40 midgets come out of the little car. That's my thing. Other Architects come to me for help on that. They don't question the scar on my head for the "pre-frontal lobotomy"?  Hey, nuts is nuts!

Pic's top to bottom: TV Stand hiding parts....  New shop east view, new shop west view, and old garage that all this shite came from...sorta....except for the extra cars.....!!!!

Doug,

You speak of finding more space in small spaces........   We moved from a 2 car garage, where I had the Goose, a motorcycle, two bicycles, and enough room for an engine stand with an engine.......

Somehow, when we unpacked the truck and trailerloads......the stuff expanded and completely filled the 30x50 shop to overflow, plus I still have a 10x12 Tuff Shed at the old house full of parts that I need to move......  I don't understand what happened.

Of course the kids also unloaded on Dad....once college was over, oh "can you store my extra car parts?".....and I'm moving into a one bedroom situation, can you store all of my extra clothes and such?

Wife experienced the same phenomenon with her kitchen........we moved all the kitchen items and she hasn't enough room in the new house, which has almost double the square feet, to put all of her stuff!!!

SO, I started storing car parts in the living room, disguised as furniture.....

Steve

@mangusta posted:

Pic's top to bottom: TV Stand hiding parts....  New shop east view, new shop west view, and old garage that all this shite came from...sorta....except for the extra cars.....!!!!

Doug,

SO, I started storing car parts in the living room, disguised as furniture.....

Steve

You mean she hasn't noticed yet? THAT'S A GREAT IDEA!

I was actually wondering the other day, that when I'm in my shop "working" on something, IF (yea right) a couple of "super strippers" walked in and tried to get my attention, if they would succeed?

See. You're only getting old when your fantasies turn to regrets?

A year and a half ago, my wife and I bought a small home a couple of blocks away from ours for my daughter, son-in-law and grandson to live in so that we could see our grandchild nearly every day.  At the time of purchase, the disclosure statement revealed that the largest room in this small home was a non-permitted room.  That didn't bother me as I do some construction and would get it permitted.  What wasn't disclosed and in fact was specifically answered falsely was that there were no legal actions against the house when the City Attorney's office had filed a lawsuit against the previous owners regarding that room.  We initiated a lawsuit and in mediation the previous owner and the selling brokeridge agreed to reimburse us a very significant amount.  Building and Safety wants us to tear down this 40 year old room because the setback isn't enough to meet zoning standards and because there were never permits issued.  I'm willing to rebuild with permits but the zoning issue prevents that.  We are filing a variance application to try and circumvent the setback requirement and the application alone is approximately $10,000.00 and we've been told that we probably have at best a 50/50 chance of prevailing. 

Good luck, I hope you can get your garage permitted and are allowed to keep it standing.  I doubt we'll be able to keep ours.

tberg, I feel your pain.  Your example is a bit more complex than Steve's.  Steve's building is a storage building constructed when the area was considered agricultural.  These sort of buildings were constructed often this way.  Still doesn't make if right. As such he has plenty of land making setbacks not his problem.  I think Steve has the tools now to proceed with his goals.

In your case this is a residence.  I don't know all the details but if the illegal construction created any sort of a potential safety hazard such as being closer than 10' away from your neighbor then I can see why the city would not be pleased and unwilling to grant a variance for setback.

Keep in mind that there is no such thing as a variance for a building code violation only for local zoning and planning codes as long as they don't conflict with the building code. I know lots of bureaucracy.......

Italford,

Thanks for your reply.  I don't want to hijack the thread, however, the encroachment of the room is to the rear setback that backs up to a fifteen foot easement that then goes up a hill to the Orange Line busway.  It has no bearing on any other residence

Steve, I feel for you getting caught in the State bureaucracy loop. But you dealt with a semi-basket-case Mangusta- you'll figure this out!

Once you have permission from the Lord & Master of Building Permits in your area, a few tips.

1) Do NOT run air lines in any kind of poly pipe! The constant strain from 100-120 psi compressor pressure causes the glue to move, until it blows apart in a year or two. If its built into the walls, it can severely damage things. Use sweat-soldered copper tubing, with quick disconnects coming out of the walls every 10 ft or so, all the way around. More expensive but will last a lifetime.

2) Insist on at least 100 amp service in the new building. I have a single-phase 200 amp sub-box for lights, a BIG compressor & electric welders. I suggest  you run 220VAC lines built in the walls separate from the 110VAC, not as taps off the 220 line. I put a 220 outlet every 15 ft and a 110v outlet every 8 ft, all the way around my 30x50 ft shop. A couple of outside outlets are also handy for yard work but are difficult to install after the fact, as I found out.

3)- at least around here, the wood walls must BOLT to the concrete step-wall from the floor every so many feet; big long studs are cast in for this purpose when they pour the floor slab. If you see an area where it looks like a stud is missing, ask the guys laying out the forms before the mixer shows up. In case you get an inspector with delusions of grandeur or to demonstrate his power, Home Depot & Lowes sell legal extra stud kits that set into a drilled hole with epoxy. To be inspector-legal, the drilled hole in the concrete needs to be 18" deep, so clearly its easier to do it when the floor is poured. I missed two near the man-door.....

4)- Add a basic bathroom & a sink to wash up. I missed this one, too. Can't tell you how many miles I've walked back into the house during a project..... There's a slope requirement for the drain or 'soil pipe' to connect to your sewer or septic tank. An outside water spigot or two is a handy thing for landscaping. By NOT adding a shower, it's easier to convince the Lord Inspector the shop will NOT EVER be 'living quarters'- which is another different ball of worms.

5)- Look at the path of the sun & the prevailing winds before you choose a building or window location. Insulate the poo out of the walls, windows, doors and roof! By using 2x6 wall studs instead of 2x4s, you can get 2x the insulation in there, cheaply. Stuff every crevice with fberglas mat. O'sized wall studs might help with earthquake compliancy, too. This not only keeps the place warm in winter, it cuts down on A/C needed in the summer. They make pre-insulated roll-up doors, too. We get snow & ice here and I use a small ventless 33,000 btu hang-on-the-wall natural gas heater with it's own distribution fan, and a small window A/C built into one wall. I work in a tee shirt during zero degree F days.

Sorry about the stupid pictures above......drafted this all, hit enter and got the spinning wheel of dots (bottom pic!) which never went away, thankfully was able to copy and paste screen shots into Word doc and back out again.......

My last couple of paragraphs went to the effect.....

So, that's where I sit at the moment. I STILL cant find anyone to erect the building or pour the concrete that isn't stratospherically priced. Again, your project is too small, but just in case you're foolish enough to pay, we'll take it!

I DID plead my case on the existing building to the county guy and he finally admitted that he had the power to come out and check the building out, as I had done some minor destructive work to determine footing and pad depths....  We'll see what happens when the time comes!!!

Cheers!!!
Steve

I recently got quotes on a 60x40 shop steel building, steel prices have quadrupled since mid last year, I may just wait. But when I do I expect to do most of the building erection myself. If it wasn't such a large area I'd do the concrete as well. Draw on friends and family (Pantera people are a great bunch!) to come help out with free beer & pizza!

Everything is up. Pine has doubled. We just got a spike in food prices. The news is reporting manufacturers are saying it's because of the Suez Canal problem last week.

Personally I think there's just a lot of price gouging going on.

It's not the prices of the materials, it's finding someone to do the labor without exceeding the price of hiring a PHD to do the job..........  I don't have any neighbors/friends/family able to assist/do such construction work, so doing it myself isn't an option that I want to consider.  No capable extra hands!!! 

The issue here, is not the putting the stuff together, it's getting the darned permit to be able to do it!  No one wants ANY CHANCE of liability......for what exactly in this case, I do not know.

I long for the days when I can walk my paperwork in, look at someone in the eyeballs and plead my case.......not sit here at my computer and get asked to design a new nuclear propulsion system for my outhouse......!!!

Cheers!

Steve, if permitting is your current problem.  I suggest going to either your county supervisor if you live in the unincorporated county area or your city council member if you live in the city.  Explain to them that the request from the building department is unreasonable and much more involved than should be required for a simple storage barn.  Ask for help, that is your main approach.

Oh and a contribution to their political campaign doesn't hurt either

HAH!!! Another comedian!!!      I have been doing exactly that.....but "with the new requirements blah blah blah" it's turned into quite the catch 22.

Gone are the days of "simply" getting a permit (at least here in Kali.....) and then you figure out what you're going to build...sort of.....

In my case, I know basically what I want, but I'm stuck in this "need a permit to get quotes, and need to purchase a building before you can get a permit" loop.

NOW, IF I were to go out and get professionally drawn up plans for my glorified Kleenix box of a building, I'd be fine, but when the costs for plans and a concrete drawing exceed 25% of the steel costs.....SOMETHING is wrong here.......

When I pulled my county file on my property (DID NOT DO THIS when I bought the place....SHOULD HAVE!) I laughed when I saw the house permit apps..........rectangle on a piece of paper, a simple line for the road out front......no plans,  This was the early 80's.  I guess that was progress from the mid to late 60's when prior to that permits were not required......now you need an engineering degree......

I guess there's always the build it and they will come around plan...... but you hear about the counties getting all PO'd and requiring that buildings be torn down and the concrete being removed, although in my case.....I had tried....and basically been obstructed from doing it legally, even though everything is above board in terms of meeting construction requirements.     Not like I'm building a stick building and patching it together with scrap pallets.......

I'll get thru.....just a matter of keeping my head up and digging.

I should have gone into civil engineering.....then I could draw up my own plans.....!  Hmmm, maybe there's a new career path in there somewhere.....buy some software......and MOOCH off of the steel companies that don't seem to want to provide a service to customers any longer........

Ciao!

Steve

Steve, I wasn't trying to be funny.  Here are my thoughts.

If you really have to have a prefab steel building:

1. Pay the company that you want to buy your building from, buy the engineering plans and calcs.  Ask if they can include the foundation design too.  If not, then hire an architect or civil engineer or structural engineer to design the foundation system.  This is what you need to submit for permit along with a site plan etc.

If you can live with a wood framed building:

2. Seek out a local drafting service to draw plans for you.  In California, one does not need to be an architect or and engineer to design and build a wood framed residential structure. See the link  California Residential Code 2019 based on the International Residential Code 2018 (IRC 2018) (up.codes)   Ok, I'm sure the California Residential Code 2019 is probably above your head but a good drafting service knows how to do this and they usually specialize in small projects.  Another up side to wood framing is you can most likely find more workers that know how to do this than steel.

Just my 2-cents