GT5 & GT5-S Production Numbers

I have 9383 I bought in '13. George Stauffer import, sold new to Click & Clack Brothers.

The Exclusive club!

@breiti posted:

The white Pantera in Turin from 1980 is demonstrably # 9156. The Car still exists today and was converted to Group4 and painted in black by Gustav Hoecker Landau Germany on behalf of a customer in ca. 1985. Car is today 2nd hand. Kind regards

If #9156 is the Turin GT5 show car, that would be very exciting because this would make it the first GT5 and so we would finally have a starting point in the VIN sequence to count GT5 production from. Do you have some documentation that demonstrates it is the Turin show car? The correspondence I have on file also refers to it being displayed at the Milano Expo before being shipped to the German De Tomaso dealer Gustav Hoecker in Landau, so it is bit confusing. Perhaps it was displayed at both shows?

I have on file a copy of a 2019 advertisement stating the car was being sold with the original 1980 transfer papers "Modena - Landau Palatinate". If you have these papers, can you please contact me? The papers are a very valuable part of GT5 history, and it would be important to have copies for the registry.

@italianstallion posted:

Hi,

I have chassis #9385, it is located in Omaha, Nebr. Am I correct that this would be the 10th car built?

#9375 was the first GT5-S and so that would make yours the 11th.

Is yours a George Stauffer car also?

I was told by Kirk Evans that this was the first batch of 3 cars he had shipped to him in the same container.
Back then dealers flipped these cars for a quick profit and moved on. Call George and ask him if he ever was
one of the owners of this car.

Good day, questions about questions. First of all, yes I have the original document which proves without doubt the transfer from Modena to Landau Pfalz to Gustav Hoecker, also the customs papers that the car was cleared in Landau. We have compared the documents with the papers of Mr. Fischer (Generalimporteur Germany), he listed in detail all vehicles including chassis numbers and moror numbers. After his death, the entire documents came to a Swiss with whom I have checked everything, received other documents. It is certain that it is not the first GT5, but just the exhibition car that stood in Turin. The chassis number written in the DeTomaso books is definitely wrong. The exhibition car is #9156 and the car is in my possession. I was last weekend in Switzerland to present the car, here it was also found that parts from the GR3 for Turin were used. Unfortunately I have to run everything I write through a translator because my English is not so good. Kind regards

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Hi, according to google there was NO expo in 1980 . Only again in 1981 in Bulgaria, but may be that wikipedia does not inform correctly. Turin was from :
23.4.-4.5.1980 Turin, Palazzo Esposizioni al Valentino + Palazzo del Lavoro Salone Internazionale dell'Automobile! 9156 was customs cleared on 29.05.1980 in Landau/Pfalz. Papers in the original available. Gustav Hoecker got the car directly, but it ran for the sake of order paper wise via the general importer Armin Fischer Fa. A.H.I. in Stuttgart Germany Also I have the lists of Mr. Fischer where the first GT5 are listed. According to this list, 9156 was the 4th GT5 built. The first 3 were red and 9156 was white. In the books that were written earlier it is definitely wrong. Probably the research was not correct, or the available documents did not give it better. With kind regards

Edit:  # 9250 is not the Car from Turin

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Breiti, thank you for posting the information you have, this is a big step forward in understanding to date what has been a cloudy and contentious area of Pantera production, with GT5 cars being just as rare as GT5S, but it seems less well documented.

Interesting that at the time they chose the 4th GT5 constructed to show as it was white, as all the best GT5's should be! Maybe avoiding immediate comparisons to Ferrari?

Julian

The white GT5 on this Prospekt is 9156

Can you please post the list of Armin Fischer (AHI) cars that you refer to?  In the alternative, can you please send a copy to me for the registry? You can contact me at peterhavlik[at]me.com.

It would be an important contribution to our understanding of the production history during that time period because the only list of AHI cars that we currently have available is incomplete:

I will get back to you.  LG

Now I am curiaous, my serial number is 9421.  My car is a 1987 and I know of a 1985 GT5S with the serial number 9426.  Any one know how this can be?  The 9426 is a black car and mine is a red car.  If anyone can explain this, it might be interesting to hear.

Mike

@Mike A posted:

Now I am curiaous, my serial number is 9421.  My car is a 1987 and I know of a 1985 GT5S with the serial number 9426.  Any one know how this can be?  The 9426 is a black car and mine is a red car.  If anyone can explain this, it might be interesting to hear.

Mike

Hi Mike:

Bill van Ess lists 9421 as a 1987 Amerisport. However, Claude Dubois lists your car as a cancelled sale in 1985. Looking at the registry, your car's VIN is within the 1985 range, not the 1987. I am speculating, but the reason for this could be that, being a cancelled sale initially, the factory could have just sat on it and then eventually sent it to Kirk Evans for Amerisport. Amerisport may have sold it as a 1987 when it would technically and for the purpose of import rules have been built by them. In short, the VIN is more an indicator of build year at the factory rather than the model year.

Just as an example, I have confirmation from the factory that my car was a 1988 build but sold by the factory as a 1989 model.

This kind of confusion is particularly acute in Europe, where cars are registered based neither on the build year nor on the model year, but rather by the year they were first registered.

Peter

I own 9193 (red GTS). The VIN suggest it was made in August of 1981, but the seller had it titled in CA as 1979, so I left it as such. I purchased it in April of 2020 and refurbished it. With the exception of the wheels I left her stock in appearance. A few reasons for the year discrepancy could be:

1. DeTomaso assigned the VIN in 1979 but never built it until 1981, or DeTomaso was trying to inflate the number of orders in 1979 by showing VINS sold even though they weren't.

2. The prior owner (he had it for 2 years in SoCal) was trying to get around CA emissions with the 40 year old exemption, but the stupid law contradicts itself then says it must be 1975 or older.

Anyway I attached a few pics for your enjoyment.

I have #9178 a 1981, first sold to Italy and 'grey' imported to the US in 2000. Interesting to see that #9193 has a US L style front bumper, suggesting it was destined for the US or sold through a dealer that federalized it, perhaps that played a role in selecting an appropriate year to list that made the process easier.

Yes 9193 was federalized with US bumpers, but still retains the original Euro gauges. The rear bumper is actually mounted a little higher, and on the belt line. It's hard mounted (no impact shocks) so it is closer to the body which I think looks better. Best I can tell it was a grey market import that made its way into the states, maybe hit Canada first since it was sold in NY in the 1980s?

Peter,

    Thank you for the information on my car.  Sharkey, from Pantera of MIami, had told me a similiar story about my car.  It helps make some sense out of it all.  The way things were done years ago are much different than production today.  It appears that Italy had their own ways of doing things as well.  I appreciate your efforts in helping me understand.  I was more curious than anything.  Love the car and wanting to get it out in the public sometime soon. 

Mike

So, I am the lists of Mr. Fischer now again through, , according to these is the first GT5 # 9153 and red , 9154 = GTS red , 9155 GTS red , 9156 GT5 white , 9157 GT5 blue

The first white GT5 ist  9156 , here fit my papers incl. the customs papers and Transfer to Germany, incl. the installation of cage and belts with the date to the automobile salon together.  

peterh , you have PM 

@breiti posted:

I will get back to you.  LG

Hi LG:

I am hoping you can share your list of Armin Fischer (AHI) cars. It is an important missing piece of De Tomaso history, and it would be valuable to have for use in the registry.

Thanks

Peter