GT5 & GT5-S Production Numbers

Here is a photo of the GT5 that debuted at the 1980 Turin Motor Show:

Here is a photo I took of 9250. It is a right hand drive car reportedly imported into Australia by Paul Halstead's company De Tomaso Australia, and owned by his retail outlet The Toy Shop until being sold to the present owner.

De Tomaso Australia was that country's Amerisport. Halstead earned export credits by selling Australian 351C engines to De Tomaso in Italy, and those export credits allowed him to import Panteras minus the engines. He then installed the Australian engines in them and sold them through The Toy Shop.

quote:

Originally posted by lashss:
Peter, how many 9000 serial numbers were unused?

I've always wondered why there always appear to be more GT5-S cars "around" than GT5s.

This thread could shed some light onto the subject.

LSJ

As far as I know only the numbers 9563 to 9600, inclusive, were not used. [since I wrote this I found out that the VIN 9600 was, in fact, used for the 90 Si test mule. The gap, therefore, is only from 9563 to 9599, inclusive]

The last VIN in the Pantera run was 9641, which is the De Tomaso museum 90 Si.

One more update to this post: I know of at least one unfinished 90 Si chassis, #9647, and supposedly there are three more. These bare frames are being sold to people who want to build new "continuation" 90 Si's. In 2016, Garage Daytona II in Codroipone, Italy, advertised a completed continuation 90 Si for sale with 0 km for 255k Euro. Steve Wilkinson reportedly acquired a couple of 90 Si frames, one of which was used to restore #9107, but I do not know if these frames had serial numbers.

#9555 is a well-travelled car. It started out in the UK, went to Japan for a while, then back to the UK and now to the U.S.:

It is a very handsome example of the breed:

The 9000 series registry is now up to 423 of the 603 known late model Panteras (Maggiora Carrozzeria and Embo Carrozzeria). This means we now have just over 70% catalogued. I thought this was as good a milestone as any to re-run the production numbers, so I did that today and was surprised to find that the number of GT5-S cars that could have been built has not changed much, but the number of possible GT5 Panteras has dropped dramatically. Conversely, the number of narrow bodies built in the 9000 series has jumped substantially.

Narrow Body

I have been able to confirm that at least 8 L model Panteras were built in the 9000 series. All of these were Maggiora coaches except #9158, which was a 1980 Embo car. At least three base model Panteras were also built (ie with no model designation from the factory than just “Pantera”), all Maggiora cars.

I have been able to identify 37 GTS cars during the Maggiora period (this is probably a very low number and I expect to find many more with time), plus 80 during the Embo period for a total of 117 late model GTS Panteras with 9000 series VINs.

Other

There is also a smattering of one-off and “speciale” cars, with designations such as GT4 Stradale, Gr3, GTS/4, GTS Gr 3, GTS/4 Gr.3, GT5 Gr.3, and so on.

Also of interest is #9600, which is noted by the factory as a 90Si but is in fact a GT5-S body with prototype 90 Si mechanicals.

GT5

The GT5 debuted at the Turin motor show in 1980. Determining the exact number of GT5s produced requires knowing, as a starting point, the first and last VINs. However, because no one except Phil Olczyk, as keeper of the factory records, knows the VIN of the first official GT5 and he has declined to reveal it, I have been greatly handicapped in this exercise.

Matt Stone and Rob de la Rive Box thought the first “factory-noted” GT5 was #9250. In their book Pantera Buyers Guide, they wrote that prior GT5s were "probably recorded as modified GTS units from about late 1980". However, factory records prove this is incorrect because #9250 has been confirmed to have been a 1982 car exported to Australia and assembled there, and a number of factory-noted GT5 Panteras are known to have been built with lower VINs.

The earliest factory-noted Pantera GT5 I have on record so far is #9127, which is a 1981 RHD located in Australia.  However, many cars are still missing from the registry and an earlier one could pop up at any time. In short, we can only speculate about the start of GT5 production. That said, it is highly unlikely that GT5 production would have started with Maggiora Carozzeria given the troubled nature of their relationship with De Tomaso. The best guess is that De Tomaso switched coach makers to Embo Carozzeria with VIN 9100, and I think it is reasonable to assume that no true GT5 will have a lower VIN than that. 

I know that #9100 is a GTS, but I have not been able to document #9101 and so, on the reasoning above, that will be the first possible GT5.

The last GT5 in the official production run is #9374, built in 1985 (we know this for a fact because the next VIN up was the first GT5-S). However, there were more GT5 Panteras built as special orders after that, although so far I have only found two (mine, #9517, which was a 1989 model year and #9542, a GT5 RHD currently being restored in the UK). 

On the assumption that the chassis were numbered in unbroken sequence, then, if we subtract the first car’s chassis number from the last, we can get a reasonable idea of the maximum number of cars that could have been produced:

9374 - 9101 = 273 cars + 1

If you then add the two GT5s built later during the GT5-S production run, we can reasonably assume a maximum of 276 cars that could have been produced. Then we have to subtract the number of GTS, L and various racing Panteras built during the GT5 production run, because these other models were produced concurrently within this VIN range. I have found 78 non-GT5 cars so far, although I fully expect more were made during this period. Therefore, my best calculation of the maximum possible number of GT5 Panteras is as follows:

276 - 78 = Max 198 GT5

This number could go down if I find more non-GT5 Panteras with chassis numbers between 9100 and 9374, and it could go up if I find more GT5 cars with VINs above 9374.

GT5-S

The first GT5-S is known to be 9375, a 1985, and the last is the last GT5-S is 9562, a 1990.

9562 - 9375 = 187 + 1

I am aware of three GTS Panteras and two GT5s having been built during this interval so;

188 - 5 = Max 183 GT5-S

The number may go down if I find other (non-GT5-S) models with chassis numbers within the GT5-S range but, for the time being, this is the best estimate of the maximum total number of GT5-S Panteras likely to have been produced, and I expect it to stay relatively stable because of the high percentage of the GT5-S cars that I have been able to find.

Thank you to all the people who have helped with the detective work required to get the registry across the 70% threshold, including Mike Drew, Julian Kift, Rob Covey, Chuck Melton, Franz Krump, Charles McCall, George Pence, Jack DeRyke, Kirk Evans, Rene Killer, Pat Hals, Mark Charlton, David Berman, Claude Dubois, Simon Vels, Joe Nardo, Roger Brotton, Roland Jaeckel, Kjell Jansson, Mark Reber, Chris Beck, Masayoshi Mitsui, Michel Savard, Denis Caron, Gerry Romack, Marcel Schaub, Phil Stebbings and Lashdeep Singh.  

Please keep those tips coming, gentlemen!

Phil Olczyk has reached out to me to express concern regarding what I wrote about him above, and so I would like to clarify my comment that he has declined to assist with establishing the VIN of  the first GT5 using the factory records he has acquired.

While what I wrote is true (Phil advised me on January 27th that he will not continue to help without being paid), I should have acknowledged that he had previously provided some information from his files, both here on this board and in private correspondence with me.  Although not relevant to the question of the first GT5, his information was otherwise helpful and so I do owe him thanks for that.

The fact remains, however, that the answer to the question of the first factory-noted GT5 is in the factory records that Phil is selling and, until and unless he volunteers that answer (or until some wealthy benefactor agrees to pay him), we may never know with 100% certainty. 

Thanks to forum member LarryW for pointing out to me that not counting #9000 affects my totals. I should have explained that there is evidence that De Tomaso started the 9000 series with #9001. 

However, while not counting #9000 does not affect the total, there was a #9375 for the GT5-S calculations which Larry is correct that I should have added to the GT5-S total, and so I have fixed my math accordingly.

I made the same error in my GT5 math, but it does not affect the total because #9100 turns out to be a confirmed GTS.

Thanks for your sharp eye, Larry!

I used to own 1985 GT5 9334.  Legendary Motorcars purchased it from me and it was recently sold.  Not sure where it went.  I still have most of the ownership documentation.

https://www.legendarymotorcar....antera-gt5-1995.aspx

Wonder wwhat they were asking for it.

And two GT5 cars coming up for sale from Guy Anderson's stable at Mecum Indy in May, sure would be good if anyone is attending to get VIN details to help Peter out!

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0...etomaso-pantera-gt5/

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0...etomaso-pantera-gt5/

From the 'Official 40th Anniversary 1959-1999' booklet handed out to event participants. Produced by the DeTomaso Factory (black cover, 3/4-rear view of a Pantera GTS on front, photo of a Pantera GTS on the old factory assembly line in Modena. 24 full color pgs).

"Pantera 1970-1990: about 7260 built (includes narrow body GTS, GT-5 and GT5-S plus 'Pantera' 1990-1992 (the factory never used 'si' to describe these last cars) ; about 38 of these built". Note- no factory official totals except for all Panteras lumped together, and even that number is approximate. The last batch of what some call 'Pantera SI' were sufficiently different that the Italian Gov't forced DeTomaso to re-certify it with a crash test. It also has a different Tipo number).

Not in the booklet- three GT5-S cars were factory-converted to Targa type tops. Of the 3 known Targa-Panteras, two were built with Getrag 6-speed transaxles sourced from the Audi RS-2. One is Austrian Franz Krump's 'cirrus-blue' Targa-Pantera; the other is a yellow Targa in Switzerland). A single non-Targa GT5-S was also equipped with a six-speed Getrag. A 3rd Targa-top GT5-S apparently had a std ZF 5-speed.

All the DeTomaso road cars from Vallelunga to Guara are listed in the booklet, together with their spec's and official production numbers. They all start with 'about....' The single exception was the Guara, since at the time of printing of the booklet (cf. text pg 3) in 1993, the Guara was still in occasional production at DeTomaso-Modena, until the following year. Apparently the Pantera (all versions) had ceased production by the time of printing of this factory booklet, but as usual, that's a guess too....

J DeRyke  (Thanks, Peter)

bosswrench posted:

Not in the booklet- three GT5-S cars were factory-converted to Targa type tops. Of the 3 known Targa-Panteras, two were built with Getrag 6-speed transaxles sourced from the Audi RS-2. One is Austrian Franz Krump's 'cirrus-blue' Targa-Pantera; the other is a yellow Targa in Switzerland). A single non-Targa GT5-S was also equipped with a six-speed Getrag. A 3rd Targa-top GT5-S apparently had a std ZF 5-speed.

 

I think you mean Si and not GT5-S ?

from what I remember there are 4 Si Targa's  . 1 red, 1 blue , 1 yellow and 1 gold painted.

Simon

Peter many years ago you and I discussed a red "GT5". I believe it was in Spain. It may have belonged to a forum member. Or it may have been for sale on eBay. I really don't remember any longer. I've searched my records for a picture of it, but came up empty handed.

I'd be surprised if you didn't retain some information about it.

The unique thing about the car, it had factory original GT5 body work, but the factory ID plate on the foot box described it as a GT4. The red "GT5" on the cover of Jan Norbye's book is described on page 72 of that book as a GT4. That Pantera in Spain could have very well been the Pantera on the cover of Mr. Norbye's book.

From 1978 to 1980 wide body Panteras came on the scene and evolved from a "wheel, tire, and fender flare" option for the GTS (1978), to a unique model so equipped (1979), and finally to the unique GT5 livery displayed in Turin in 1980.

1978-GTS/4 → 1979-GT4 → 1980-GT5 

The red Pantera, by its existence, proves that the evolution of the livery outpaced the evolution of the name. I don't know if in your mind the first GT5 is the first Pantera called a GT5 by the factory, or if its the first Pantera built with GT5 livery. Either way, I doubt there were many Panteras like the red one. That Pantera's chassis number would have pointed you within a few chassis numbers to the "first" GT5, however you define it.

If there is any car more unique than a GT5 its a GT4, which is also an Embo coach (9000 series) model.

Below is a page from a 1976 Brochure

Another page from the same 1976 brochure. 4 Pantera versions marketed.

Unfortunately no 1977 or 1978 brochures were available to me.

Below is a page from a 1979 brochure; still 4 Pantera versions marketed. The Gruppo 4 has conspicuously been renamed a GT4. It would be natural to assume the GT4 and Gruppo 4 were the same car; after all they used the same picture in this brochure that had been used in earlier brochures.  Except we know for a fact De Tomaso produced for a short time circa 1979 wide body street cars, based on the GTS, which they referred to as GT4s.

So instead of the "Gruppo 4" being renamed, what in reality transpired in the 1979 brochure was the GT4 was "added" to the line-up and the Gruppo 4 was dropped from the line-up. Without 1977 or 1978 brochures its impossible to say exactly when the Gruppo 4 was dropped.

In the small print the GT4 tires are described as Pirelli P7s, not racing tires. This car of course had 285mm front and 345mm rear street tires. The widest street tires ever manufactured. Porsche and Lamborghini were doing the same thing at the same time.

Below are two pages from a 1980 "GTS" brochure.

There's lots of detail information about the GTS.

The other Pantera models receive an "also mentioned".

There are still 4 versions of the Pantera being marketed. The GT5 makes its first appearance, and the GT4 is still there too. The Pantera L has been dropped from the line-up. Unfortunately I don't have a 1981 brochure available to me. I'd bet mention of the GT4 was dropped in 1981.

Below is a better view of the 1980 brochure, you can read the blurb about the tires a little better. Not a lot better, just a little better.

By the way, can anyone explain to me what's the meaning of the word pointed out by the red arrows?

Finally below are two pages from a 1985 brochure, the next brochure available to me. By 1985 only 1 Pantera model is really advertised; the GT5-S. The GT5 and GTS are pictured, but there's no information provided about them, no specs. Its as though De Tomaso was showing pictures of the "out going" models. There's no mention, not even a picture, of a Group 3 model.

I just came across another GTS in the GT5 production run:

#9309 - 1984 Pantera GTS to GT5 conversion - Lebanon, New Jersey, USA

This means the total possible production of the GT5 is now down to 197.

George + Peter,

Fabulous work from you guys on the 9000 series model totals!

To answer only one question...

I believe the Red GT5 you mention is found in the (ProvaMo) registry...

I used "Search by Country" -> Spain

and found photos stored under Unknown399 (motor 7242).

The displayed foot box VIN plate was not cleaned enough to be fully readable,

but I can make out the year/month code as "ZL".  Would you agree ?

Then the registry has two cars with "ZL".  There may be more...

They are numbered 9184 (motor number 7222) and 9186 (motor 7224).

The motor numbers are rather close to the subject car, Unknown399.

I believe this unknown car VIN is in the area of these other two ZL dated cars.

Chuck

The white Pantera in Turin from 1980 is demonstrably # 9156. The Car still exists today and was converted to Group4 and painted in black by Gustav Hoecker Landau Germany on behalf of a customer in ca. 1985. Car is today 2nd hand. Kind regards

Hi,

I have chassis #9385, it is located in Omaha, Nebr. Am I correct that this would be the 10th car built?

I have 9421 FYI  Red!

I have 9383 I bought in '13. George Stauffer import, sold new to Click & Clack Brothers.

The Exclusive club!

@breiti posted:

The white Pantera in Turin from 1980 is demonstrably # 9156. The Car still exists today and was converted to Group4 and painted in black by Gustav Hoecker Landau Germany on behalf of a customer in ca. 1985. Car is today 2nd hand. Kind regards

If #9156 is the Turin GT5 show car, that would be very exciting because this would make it the first GT5 and so we would finally have a starting point in the VIN sequence to count GT5 production from. Do you have some documentation that demonstrates it is the Turin show car? The correspondence I have on file also refers to it being displayed at the Milano Expo before being shipped to the German De Tomaso dealer Gustav Hoecker in Landau, so it is bit confusing. Perhaps it was displayed at both shows?

I have on file a copy of a 2019 advertisement stating the car was being sold with the original 1980 transfer papers "Modena - Landau Palatinate". If you have these papers, can you please contact me? The papers are a very valuable part of GT5 history, and it would be important to have copies for the registry.

@italianstallion posted:

Hi,

I have chassis #9385, it is located in Omaha, Nebr. Am I correct that this would be the 10th car built?

#9375 was the first GT5-S and so that would make yours the 11th.

Is yours a George Stauffer car also?

Good day, questions about questions. First of all, yes I have the original document which proves without doubt the transfer from Modena to Landau Pfalz to Gustav Hoecker, also the customs papers that the car was cleared in Landau. We have compared the documents with the papers of Mr. Fischer (Generalimporteur Germany), he listed in detail all vehicles including chassis numbers and moror numbers. After his death, the entire documents came to a Swiss with whom I have checked everything, received other documents. It is certain that it is not the first GT5, but just the exhibition car that stood in Turin. The chassis number written in the DeTomaso books is definitely wrong. The exhibition car is #9156 and the car is in my possession. I was last weekend in Switzerland to present the car, here it was also found that parts from the GR3 for Turin were used. Unfortunately I have to run everything I write through a translator because my English is not so good. Kind regards

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Hi, according to google there was NO expo in 1980 . Only again in 1981 in Bulgaria, but may be that wikipedia does not inform correctly. Turin was from :
23.4.-4.5.1980 Turin, Palazzo Esposizioni al Valentino + Palazzo del Lavoro Salone Internazionale dell'Automobile! 9156 was customs cleared on 29.05.1980 in Landau/Pfalz. Papers in the original available. Gustav Hoecker got the car directly, but it ran for the sake of order paper wise via the general importer Armin Fischer Fa. A.H.I. in Stuttgart Germany Also I have the lists of Mr. Fischer where the first GT5 are listed. According to this list, 9156 was the 4th GT5 built. The first 3 were red and 9156 was white. In the books that were written earlier it is definitely wrong. Probably the research was not correct, or the available documents did not give it better. With kind regards

Edit:  # 9250 is not the Car from Turin

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Breiti, thank you for posting the information you have, this is a big step forward in understanding to date what has been a cloudy and contentious area of Pantera production, with GT5 cars being just as rare as GT5S, but it seems less well documented.

Interesting that at the time they chose the 4th GT5 constructed to show as it was white, as all the best GT5's should be! Maybe avoiding immediate comparisons to Ferrari?

Julian

The white GT5 on this Prospekt is 9156

Can you please post the list of Armin Fischer (AHI) cars that you refer to?  In the alternative, can you please send a copy to me for the registry? You can contact me at peterhavlik[at]me.com.

It would be an important contribution to our understanding of the production history during that time period because the only list of AHI cars that we currently have available is incomplete:

I will get back to you.  LG

Now I am curiaous, my serial number is 9421.  My car is a 1987 and I know of a 1985 GT5S with the serial number 9426.  Any one know how this can be?  The 9426 is a black car and mine is a red car.  If anyone can explain this, it might be interesting to hear.

Mike

@Mike A posted:

Now I am curiaous, my serial number is 9421.  My car is a 1987 and I know of a 1985 GT5S with the serial number 9426.  Any one know how this can be?  The 9426 is a black car and mine is a red car.  If anyone can explain this, it might be interesting to hear.

Mike

Hi Mike:

Bill van Ess lists 9421 as a 1987 Amerisport. However, Claude Dubois lists your car as a cancelled sale in 1985. Looking at the registry, your car's VIN is within the 1985 range, not the 1987. I am speculating, but the reason for this could be that, being a cancelled sale initially, the factory could have just sat on it and then eventually sent it to Kirk Evans for Amerisport. Amerisport may have sold it as a 1987 when it would technically and for the purpose of import rules have been built by them. In short, the VIN is more an indicator of build year at the factory rather than the model year.

Just as an example, I have confirmation from the factory that my car was a 1988 build but sold by the factory as a 1989 model.

This kind of confusion is particularly acute in Europe, where cars are registered based neither on the build year nor on the model year, but rather by the year they were first registered.

Peter

I own 9193 (red GTS). The VIN suggest it was made in August of 1981, but the seller had it titled in CA as 1979, so I left it as such. I purchased it in April of 2020 and refurbished it. With the exception of the wheels I left her stock in appearance. A few reasons for the year discrepancy could be:

1. DeTomaso assigned the VIN in 1979 but never built it until 1981, or DeTomaso was trying to inflate the number of orders in 1979 by showing VINS sold even though they weren't.

2. The prior owner (he had it for 2 years in SoCal) was trying to get around CA emissions with the 40 year old exemption, but the stupid law contradicts itself then says it must be 1975 or older.

Anyway I attached a few pics for your enjoyment.

I have #9178 a 1981, first sold to Italy and 'grey' imported to the US in 2000. Interesting to see that #9193 has a US L style front bumper, suggesting it was destined for the US or sold through a dealer that federalized it, perhaps that played a role in selecting an appropriate year to list that made the process easier.

Yes 9193 was federalized with US bumpers, but still retains the original Euro gauges. The rear bumper is actually mounted a little higher, and on the belt line. It's hard mounted (no impact shocks) so it is closer to the body which I think looks better. Best I can tell it was a grey market import that made its way into the states, maybe hit Canada first since it was sold in NY in the 1980s?

Peter,

    Thank you for the information on my car.  Sharkey, from Pantera of MIami, had told me a similiar story about my car.  It helps make some sense out of it all.  The way things were done years ago are much different than production today.  It appears that Italy had their own ways of doing things as well.  I appreciate your efforts in helping me understand.  I was more curious than anything.  Love the car and wanting to get it out in the public sometime soon. 

Mike

So, I am the lists of Mr. Fischer now again through, , according to these is the first GT5 # 9153 and red , 9154 = GTS red , 9155 GTS red , 9156 GT5 white , 9157 GT5 blue

The first white GT5 ist  9156 , here fit my papers incl. the customs papers and Transfer to Germany, incl. the installation of cage and belts with the date to the automobile salon together.  

peterh , you have PM 

@breiti posted:

I will get back to you.  LG

Hi LG:

I am hoping you can share your list of Armin Fischer (AHI) cars. It is an important missing piece of De Tomaso history, and it would be valuable to have for use in the registry.

Thanks

Peter