GT5 flare installation durability question?

Come ON, any answers to the newbies here!! Cheers!

Check out Detomaso photo gallery aka 1905 Garys car has a metal GTS5 flares and air dam. I guess as long as you stay on the road its pretty durable. LOL

SPAIN ?????? Wow my favorite place ... Catalunya, Barcelona, Montmello ........wow memories.

Ron

Ron I avoided comenting because I don't really know what issues people have with them. When I bought my car I couldn't really see how they did the flairs. After getting it stripped I saw it was welded on then sculpted out of bondo which cracked in several places. Had they left the line instead of try to fill will filler it probably would have been fine. I feel confident in the repairs I have done but you never know. I'll know better in 5-10 years.

Gary

Yes Spain...well, somebody been to the F1 circuit, I guess.

Well #1959 arrived here in Spain a couple of months ago, after 8 years been mostly garaged in Arizona.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Check out Detomaso photo gallery aka 1905 Garys car has a metal GTS5 flares and air dam. I guess as long as you stay on the road its pretty durable. LOL

Ron

The photo gallery seems to have disappeared. Did George take it down?

quote:

Originally posted by Himark:
Since before buying a car I have always wanted to install these but now after really reviewing the car I am leaning towards just the front fascia and a fin. Something that would bother me is if installing the flares and body finishing them on would be shrink back (cracking at seams) and or possibly busting from air dam and having to service. What kind of durability are you guys seeing that have body finished them on? also are they riveted and glued?

If you weld on the flares then filler must be used to blend in the flare. The cracking comes from not enough weld points, i.e., some flares are spot welded on.

The factory knew this and chose to avoid a very expensive installation with fiberglass flares.
The fiberglass flares do very well on the Pantera probably due to the shape.
The pop rivets on the GTS also added to the competition look in vogue at the time.
Personally I think they are Fords influence.

Butt weld the flares on, not overlap welding, no bondo issues, cracking, or future corrosion problems. GTS flares took me 4 1/2 days, very little bondo to smooth the seams. Mig welded, ground welds down, worked awesome!!

My flairs were put on int he 1980's. They were overlapped (spot welded) then the seem covered with filler. There was absolutly no signs of corrosion and absolutly no corrosion problems after 20+ years. I am sure the metal was clean when done. I believe overlapping is the strongest because you have more metal but in doing so I think filling in the overlap is a bad idea. If you want a clean seam, but welding is the way to go. I cut my ovelap and aligned it:

I'm getting the impression that some think that leading the joint eliminates the need of plastic filler. It doesn't.
The lead is just to strengthen the joint. There are still waves and depressions in the lead that need to be filled.
The joint on these flares are just as well filled with a filler like "all-metal" with some fiberglass resin mixed in.

I know the answer :

Clearify for me whats meant by BUTT WELD and whats a LAPP JOINT ... it appears to me the LAPP joint is what we are all using here and clearly stronger. You have metal overlapping for strength

A BUTT joint and depends exclusively on the weld .. and requires a FULL weld joint consistantly with full penetration and the length of the joint. Too brittle on sheetmetal to be strong .. But joint is strong in pipe welding with 2 -3 different ROD.

It looks like we are doing LAPP joints with 100's of tack welds ???

Ron

Doug I also came across a type of filler like you indicated "metallic filler " but in stripping it I senced a SILICONE consistancy ... and your 100% correct the lead was for strenght and FLEXIBILTY ..used in automotive at the JOINING points of panels. This was so that the car could flex at these points ... it takes a lot of practice to work with lead hence the word "PLUMBER". worker of lead. By the way WESTCHESTER LICENSE still requires a practical test working with lead.

R

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I'm getting the impression that some think that leading the joint eliminates the need of plastic filler. It doesn't.
The lead is just to strengthen the joint. There are still waves and depressions in the lead that need to be filled.
The joint on these flares are just as well filled with a filler like "all-metal" with some fiberglass resin mixed in.

Lead and filler both have it's place. If the flairs are welded properly you only need a skim coat and you will need a skim coat weather it's leaded or not so there is no need to lead in the first place. Also If you lead the open areas such as this you risk warping the metal which is not good either.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:

A BUTT joint and depends exclusively on the weld .. and requires a FULL weld joint consistantly with full penetration and the length of the joint. Too brittle on sheetmetal to be strong ..
Ron

Ron a Butt weld also risk being a weak point of not done right. You take 2 pieces of metal, put them together, weld them then grind down the seem and you can't do that without making the metal at the joint at least some what thinner. Since mine was lapped and I changed it to a but weld I left the lap behind the fender to make it a little thicker.

My understanding of the term butt weld is butting the two ends of the metal together, flush, and welding them together.
Apparently there are human people that are capable of accomplishing this.
I think that it is futile, foolish and unnecessary. It is also inferior. It is also going to warp and stretch the hell out of the sheet steel.
Only a fool would attempt this.

A better way would be to overlap the sheet steel something like 1/2 to 3/4". Then clamp the metal securly if not tighly together then dimple weld the sheets together.

In this way you are reducing the the warpage from the heat. You are producing welds that do not need to be ground down. You are producing dimples that can easily be filled with body filler.

The hard edge of the the exposed sheet should have the hard square edge removed. It one was really intelligent the edges of one of the components should be rolled so that there is a recessed shelf for the other to sit in. This enables the finished surfaces to finish flush and finish with the minimal amount of filler.

As far as being a plumber Ron, your daddy was right. I just got fired for Christmas. Wouldn't happen to a plumber. Ho, ho, ho.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
It is also inferior. It is also going to warp and stretch the hell out of the sheet steel.
Only a fool would attempt this.

I am a fool then as I used good technique and got specatcular results! Warping was never a problem and welds are good and strong!:

I'm glad it worked out. Looks great.

My opinion is Gary your procedure has accomplished the best of both worlds ... Lapp Joint - spot welded and the lapp joint is welded on the edge. Perfect ...

The LEAD issue .. well the key to not warping the metal is to control the heat. To weld or solder lead pipe or sheet lead the lead has to have an insulator on the back side or the pipe has to be sealed at the ends .. this enables the heat to stay in the metal and not cool fast. so on sheetmetal I would think maybe a backing of some sort would help .. cant say I have plans to use lead ...

One thing for sure is on 9138 the paint in the lead areas has whats called CROWS FOOT .. meaning the paint is cracking. For what its worth my opinion is the paint dosent stick great to lead ..

Doug ... your a PLUMBER ??? I'm sure I know you then ... LOL

Ron

quote:

The LEAD issue

Bob Smith Coachworks, one of the top Ferrari resto shops in the world uses MarineTex bondo. Sticks better, non-porous, flexible, light, easier to work with.

I think the term for that type of weld is a scab weld because it looks like a wound scab.

I'm not trying to be critical. I am just trying to share information. I'm not trying to be the quintisential expert.

Some of these are just preferences I suppose. There is no right and no wrong way.
I would prefer to stay away from the scab weld on sheet metal.

On welds that long there is a tremendous amount of grinding to just get them flush. Now in order to make them invisable, they need to be below the surface of the sheet metal so you can fill them.

I tend to remove to much metal from the sheet while grinding and tend to overheat it and make it too thin. To me that is self defeating. I don't see the point of it. It will crack through the weld in the future or dimble very easy in thinner sheet metal.

I have never been able to do that well at all. If they are beneath the surface, then you have ground them off, because a scab weld sits on the surface.

Even if you are successful, you are talking about weld thicknesses measured in thousands of an inch.

No plumber here Ron. I said I should have been.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff6559:

quote:

The LEAD issue

Bob Smith Coachworks, one of the top Ferrari resto shops in the world uses MarineTex bondo. Sticks better, non-porous, flexible, light, easier to work with.

Is this a brand or type of auto body filler?

I looked it up .. its a Marine epoxy ...

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

Even if you are successful, you are talking about weld thicknesses measured in thousands of an inch.

No actually the weld is through. Penetration is about the size of the "scab" or individual knob but it penetrates all the way through. With it set up right the melted metal becomes the same thicknes except scabbed as you say. there is actually a "mini scab" on the back side I don't have a photo of. You are correct it takes carefull grinding but is not that hard with good technique. To say penetration is in thousandths is really to not understand the technique.

We were just talking about this today. With the advent of good low cost 110v MIG welders it really makes this type of thing possible for many who want to learn:

quote:

Is this a brand or type of auto body filler?

Yes. The hot rod shop I hang out at also uses it.

http://www.marinetex.com/

Me personally I use all dupont, ppg or 3m products.

Ron

Thanks for the information everyone. This is a pretty good post.

Lap joints for Skoda's, butt joints for Pantera's.

Lap joints are rust traps. If the overlapping sheet metal is not 100% sealed with seam sealant, the resulting rust will cause the joint to bulge as the steel de-laminates.
Once this starts, there is nothing you can do but cut the whole thing off and do it properly.
Lap joints prevent metal finishing. It is not possible to beat the perfect panel if there is there is a lap joint in the way.

A butt joint is the only way to join body panel. It does take a lot more skill, and probably 10 times longer. If the two edges are not perfectly aligned, you will get thin spots when you polish down welds. This process is a lot easier on an aluminium body because the ally is nearly twice a thick. The weld should look the same on both sides of the panel. After polishing it down on either side I beat the panel into shape. The heat from the welding causes distortion but does not stretch the metal. Stretching either happens in the panel beating process, or there was simply too much metal there to start with. This is soon corrected by shrinking.
I heat a small spot in the area I want to shrink with the gas torch, wait for it to pop up, then quickly beat around it with a body hammer working the metal into the red-hot centre (kind of like squeezing a zit) and then give it one tap in the centre and let it cool.

Comp 2, you're doing a great job of correcting someone else's work on those arches. Make sure you seal it well from the inside.

I wish I could go back to the stage you're at with my car and improve on a few of the things I did. I was 22 at the time and on a steep learning curve. 13 years on I have a lot more experience. If you haven't already done it, I suggest reinforcing the joint around the rear tail lights. This is brazed from the factory so is very difficult to weld. When I redo my paint someday I am going to put a gusset in behind and weld it solid. I will also do the same in the rear deck lid opening where it curves up towards the roof. This will spread the loads over a wider area and hopefully prevent cracking. I am also going to strengthen the windscreen pillar A post where it connects in the front fender. I intend to insert a steel reinforcement about 6" up the pillar, and plug weld it in lots of places and then attach it very solidly to the inner fender/A post area.
I have done about 15000 miles since I finished my car. It didn't take long for the cracks to show around the tail lights, although they are hard to see. I have just noticed a very fine crack in the deck lid opening. This took about 12000 mile to appear. I have not yet got any cracks at base of the A pillar. I think if I drove it on a track a few times these would appear. I lead loaded all of these stress areas and also the B post area. I do not believe in using lead in any area where it is not necessary, like wheel arches.

My mate Kirk Evans reckons the cracks around the rear tail lights are caused by the fact that the rear panel is not supported properly in its lower outer corner (the sharp corner on the outside of the silencer box) He suggests attaching a rod to this area and taking it up to the chassis. I am going to do this also. If you crab that area with your hand, you will see it flexes up and down quite easily.
Please keep the pictures coming. I always enjoy them!

Johnny

Come on Johnny show us some pics of the exact locations your talking about ??

Ron

Johny I think it common if not a particular styl eto see the overlapped flairs:

http://silviars13.free.fr/images/pantera/Pantera%20GT5%20-%2039.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1817/IMAGES/DETOMASO/WAKE09-big.jpg

If done correctly there will be no corosion issue as 90% of the sub structure in the car is done the same. I know there was no issues with mine and they were done 20 years ago. No corrosion what so ever but it like everything else is a function of style and preference. This is one of those where people search for a perfect internet answer and I don't think there is one. I do like the overlap from the standpoint of the aditional metal but it never should have been filled in like mine was. And I agree that's no place for lead. If that requires that much filler it wasn't done right to begin with.

Idealistically I would love to see the flairs come with a flange like you make with a flange tool. That would really bring more metal to the area being welded. I really took my time with the mig and I never had as much as a single spot with warp issues. On the other hand I tacked 2 spots with the TIG. They were very quick tacks and they both warped so fast and so much from one tack weld that I could put a screwdriver in the slot. The Mig is really the tool for this.

I would also love to see photos of the problem areas you are having now.

Just a follow up on the use of MarineTex. The reason it is so effective is that it adheres so well, provides strength, and most importantly, it is totally impervious to moisture. (In effect, it works like somewhat like POR 15.) It's best if you use it on both side of the joined area to totally seal the weld. You can then finish it normally or add some regular filler which is easier to sand than MarineTex.

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:
Johny I think it common if not a particular styl eto see the overlapped flairs:

http://silviars13.free.fr/images/pantera/Pantera%20GT5%20-%2039.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1817/IMAGES/DETOMASO/WAKE09-big.jpg

If done correctly there will be no corosion issue as 90% of the sub structure in the car is done the same. I know there was no issues with mine and they were done 20 years ago. No corrosion what so ever but it like everything else is a function of style and preference. This is one of those where people search for a perfect internet answer and I don't think there is one. I do like the overlap from the standpoint of the aditional metal but it never should have been filled in like mine was. And I agree that's no place for lead. If that requires that much filler it wasn't done right to begin with.

Idealistically I would love to see the flairs come with a flange like you make with a flange tool. That would really bring more metal to the area being welded. I really took my time with the mig and I never had as much as a single spot with warp issues. On the other hand I tacked 2 spots with the TIG. They were very quick tacks and they both warped so fast and so much from one tack weld that I could put a screwdriver in the slot. The Mig is really the tool for this.

I would also love to see photos of the problem areas you are having now.

So Gary does this mean you would recommend NOT to use a torch to do all the welding with? Even if you go real slow?

DeTom I know you heve seen this photo a dozen times but look at the weld bead:



Each bead takes about 1/3 of a second. After making a 1/2 dozen bead welds such as this, put the welder down. THAT is the key! That is why it is not hard but takes patience. Come back a few minutes later and put down another 1/2 dozen beads spaced out like that.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:


So Gary does this mean you would recommend NOT to use a torch to do all the welding with? Even if you go real slow?

Detom I must have written over my other post. Absolutely not for the torch. A TIG is basically a mini torch and the heat saturation required to weld creates warping problems for open sheet metal immediately.

Torch welding is an art not easily picked up in a short period of time. By contrast torch welding is preferred if you work a piece of metal in an English wheel after you weld it. A torch spreads the heat into the metal and you will have less cracks but if you are working the metal in an english wheel anyway the warping is of less issue.

Suffice to say when MIG'g properly there is NO WARPAGE of the metal.

Also, if you overlap the flairs spray zinc or weldable primer between the sheets for corrosion protection but you still need to clean the metal where welding. You can weld directly to weld through primer but it works a lot better if you weld to clean metal especially for thin metal.

quote:

So Gary does this mean you would recommend NOT to use a torch to do all the welding with? Even if you go real slow?

That is the way it used to be done.
I've got a sixty year old workshop manual at home that has a whole section on body repair.
Back then they used Oxy-Acetylene torches and to stop the heat spreading they used a big handful of shredded wet asbestos in a doughnut shape around the weld.

Dang Gary. It looks like I should farm this part out. I am glad you said something or I woulda toatly ruined my car. I better leave the actual body work to someone who knows what they are doing. This is gonna cost me a fortune.

You can ruin your car if you don't have a handle on it.

Do you have a MIG welder? Do you have metal to practice on? Do you have a small spot on the car that may need repairing you can practice with?

You know you are not that far from me. Come up to Evansville (just NE of) and I will will show you first hand.

Gary

Thanks Gary and I would like to meet you sometime. I just see you and Ron doing this stuff, I look at your pictures and I want to do it too. But I haven't welded in over 30 years. Back then I was pretty good at it, but my hands didn't shake back in those days. My Daughter got me a book on how to restore cars but I haven't read it yet. I may just decide no matter how much I may want to, I better just sub contract some things out. In the meantime I have to save up my money. My Son graduates this next year and my Daughter has about three more years to go, then I will be done paying for college. Th if I save up like crazy until I retire I will have both the time and the money to do my car right.

If you make it in this area please stop by. Be glad to help with what ever I can. I am just a couple hours north of Nashville.

I may take you up on that Gary. We have a plant there near Nashville and I might just have to go there soon.