GT5 flare installation durability question?

Come ON, any answers to the newbies here!! Cheers!

Check out Detomaso photo gallery aka 1905 Garys car has a metal GTS5 flares and air dam. I guess as long as you stay on the road its pretty durable. LOL

SPAIN ?????? Wow my favorite place ... Catalunya, Barcelona, Montmello ........wow memories.

Ron

Ron I avoided comenting because I don't really know what issues people have with them. When I bought my car I couldn't really see how they did the flairs. After getting it stripped I saw it was welded on then sculpted out of bondo which cracked in several places. Had they left the line instead of try to fill will filler it probably would have been fine. I feel confident in the repairs I have done but you never know. I'll know better in 5-10 years.

Gary

Yes Spain...well, somebody been to the F1 circuit, I guess.

Well #1959 arrived here in Spain a couple of months ago, after 8 years been mostly garaged in Arizona.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Check out Detomaso photo gallery aka 1905 Garys car has a metal GTS5 flares and air dam. I guess as long as you stay on the road its pretty durable. LOL

Ron

The photo gallery seems to have disappeared. Did George take it down?

quote:

Originally posted by Himark:
Since before buying a car I have always wanted to install these but now after really reviewing the car I am leaning towards just the front fascia and a fin. Something that would bother me is if installing the flares and body finishing them on would be shrink back (cracking at seams) and or possibly busting from air dam and having to service. What kind of durability are you guys seeing that have body finished them on? also are they riveted and glued?

If you weld on the flares then filler must be used to blend in the flare. The cracking comes from not enough weld points, i.e., some flares are spot welded on.

The factory knew this and chose to avoid a very expensive installation with fiberglass flares.
The fiberglass flares do very well on the Pantera probably due to the shape.
The pop rivets on the GTS also added to the competition look in vogue at the time.
Personally I think they are Fords influence.

Butt weld the flares on, not overlap welding, no bondo issues, cracking, or future corrosion problems. GTS flares took me 4 1/2 days, very little bondo to smooth the seams. Mig welded, ground welds down, worked awesome!!

My flairs were put on int he 1980's. They were overlapped (spot welded) then the seem covered with filler. There was absolutly no signs of corrosion and absolutly no corrosion problems after 20+ years. I am sure the metal was clean when done. I believe overlapping is the strongest because you have more metal but in doing so I think filling in the overlap is a bad idea. If you want a clean seam, but welding is the way to go. I cut my ovelap and aligned it:

I'm getting the impression that some think that leading the joint eliminates the need of plastic filler. It doesn't.
The lead is just to strengthen the joint. There are still waves and depressions in the lead that need to be filled.
The joint on these flares are just as well filled with a filler like "all-metal" with some fiberglass resin mixed in.

I know the answer :

Clearify for me whats meant by BUTT WELD and whats a LAPP JOINT ... it appears to me the LAPP joint is what we are all using here and clearly stronger. You have metal overlapping for strength

A BUTT joint and depends exclusively on the weld .. and requires a FULL weld joint consistantly with full penetration and the length of the joint. Too brittle on sheetmetal to be strong .. But joint is strong in pipe welding with 2 -3 different ROD.

It looks like we are doing LAPP joints with 100's of tack welds ???

Ron

Doug I also came across a type of filler like you indicated "metallic filler " but in stripping it I senced a SILICONE consistancy ... and your 100% correct the lead was for strenght and FLEXIBILTY ..used in automotive at the JOINING points of panels. This was so that the car could flex at these points ... it takes a lot of practice to work with lead hence the word "PLUMBER". worker of lead. By the way WESTCHESTER LICENSE still requires a practical test working with lead.

R

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I'm getting the impression that some think that leading the joint eliminates the need of plastic filler. It doesn't.
The lead is just to strengthen the joint. There are still waves and depressions in the lead that need to be filled.
The joint on these flares are just as well filled with a filler like "all-metal" with some fiberglass resin mixed in.

Lead and filler both have it's place. If the flairs are welded properly you only need a skim coat and you will need a skim coat weather it's leaded or not so there is no need to lead in the first place. Also If you lead the open areas such as this you risk warping the metal which is not good either.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:

A BUTT joint and depends exclusively on the weld .. and requires a FULL weld joint consistantly with full penetration and the length of the joint. Too brittle on sheetmetal to be strong ..
Ron

Ron a Butt weld also risk being a weak point of not done right. You take 2 pieces of metal, put them together, weld them then grind down the seem and you can't do that without making the metal at the joint at least some what thinner. Since mine was lapped and I changed it to a but weld I left the lap behind the fender to make it a little thicker.

My understanding of the term butt weld is butting the two ends of the metal together, flush, and welding them together.
Apparently there are human people that are capable of accomplishing this.
I think that it is futile, foolish and unnecessary. It is also inferior. It is also going to warp and stretch the hell out of the sheet steel.
Only a fool would attempt this.

A better way would be to overlap the sheet steel something like 1/2 to 3/4". Then clamp the metal securly if not tighly together then dimple weld the sheets together.

In this way you are reducing the the warpage from the heat. You are producing welds that do not need to be ground down. You are producing dimples that can easily be filled with body filler.

The hard edge of the the exposed sheet should have the hard square edge removed. It one was really intelligent the edges of one of the components should be rolled so that there is a recessed shelf for the other to sit in. This enables the finished surfaces to finish flush and finish with the minimal amount of filler.

As far as being a plumber Ron, your daddy was right. I just got fired for Christmas. Wouldn't happen to a plumber. Ho, ho, ho.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
It is also inferior. It is also going to warp and stretch the hell out of the sheet steel.
Only a fool would attempt this.

I am a fool then as I used good technique and got specatcular results! Warping was never a problem and welds are good and strong!:

I'm glad it worked out. Looks great.

My opinion is Gary your procedure has accomplished the best of both worlds ... Lapp Joint - spot welded and the lapp joint is welded on the edge. Perfect ...

The LEAD issue .. well the key to not warping the metal is to control the heat. To weld or solder lead pipe or sheet lead the lead has to have an insulator on the back side or the pipe has to be sealed at the ends .. this enables the heat to stay in the metal and not cool fast. so on sheetmetal I would think maybe a backing of some sort would help .. cant say I have plans to use lead ...

One thing for sure is on 9138 the paint in the lead areas has whats called CROWS FOOT .. meaning the paint is cracking. For what its worth my opinion is the paint dosent stick great to lead ..

Doug ... your a PLUMBER ??? I'm sure I know you then ... LOL

Ron

quote:

The LEAD issue

Bob Smith Coachworks, one of the top Ferrari resto shops in the world uses MarineTex bondo. Sticks better, non-porous, flexible, light, easier to work with.

I think the term for that type of weld is a scab weld because it looks like a wound scab.

I'm not trying to be critical. I am just trying to share information. I'm not trying to be the quintisential expert.

Some of these are just preferences I suppose. There is no right and no wrong way.
I would prefer to stay away from the scab weld on sheet metal.

On welds that long there is a tremendous amount of grinding to just get them flush. Now in order to make them invisable, they need to be below the surface of the sheet metal so you can fill them.

I tend to remove to much metal from the sheet while grinding and tend to overheat it and make it too thin. To me that is self defeating. I don't see the point of it. It will crack through the weld in the future or dimble very easy in thinner sheet metal.

I have never been able to do that well at all. If they are beneath the surface, then you have ground them off, because a scab weld sits on the surface.

Even if you are successful, you are talking about weld thicknesses measured in thousands of an inch.

No plumber here Ron. I said I should have been.