Hydraulic roller lifter issue?

Dear Rene,

            I suffered a clicking sound for months and it was getting worse.  The short story is that after pulling the valve cover the cause was a push rod that had worn about 6 mm shorter than it was supposed to be. 

           My engine builder/machinist told me that, in addition to the quality problems with other engine parts, push rod heat treatment (?) has become unreliable.  He claimed that using his own hardness durometer (?) to test *new* pushrods,  he was finding roughly a 10 to 15% fail rate. 

          He told me to pull the other push rods for testing.  Out of the sixteen push rods there was a total of two abnormally worn rods and two that only failed the hardness testing.   I now have replacements for the four bad ones and a finally quiet engine.

          It is easy to pull the push rods and check their ends for abnormal wear.  I do not know how easily you can find someone to test the hardness.

          For what it is worth, if it was built in the last ten years, it *might* be a push rod, if nothing else is found.

                  Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

@cengles posted:

Dear Rene,

            I suffered a clicking sound for months and it was getting worse.  The short story is that after pulling the valve cover the cause was a push rod that had worn about 6 mm shorter than it was supposed to be.

           My engine builder/machinist told me that, in addition to the quality problems with other engine parts, push rod heat treatment (?) has become unreliable.  He claimed that using his own hardness durometer (?) to test *new* pushrods,  he was finding roughly a 10 to 15% fail rate.

          He told me to pull the other push rods for testing.  Out of the sixteen push rods there was a total of two abnormally worn rods and two that only failed the hardness testing.   I now have replacements for the four bad ones and a finally quiet engine.

          It is easy to pull the push rods and check their ends for abnormal wear.  I do not know how easily you can find someone to test the hardness.

          For what it is worth, if it was built in the last ten years, it *might* be a push rod, if nothing else is found.

                  Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

Just asking… The 6 mm push rod part - was it missing or just smooshed … because if it was missing where did it go?

The last engine I built was the 408W for my Bronco.  I used Hydraulic Roller lifters with a dog bone as the block is a 1994 351W block and designed for roller cam.  I had problems with three of the 16 lifters.  One would not pump up at all and two would collapse shortly after shutting off the engine.  We constructed a test apparatus to pump oil into the lifter to test if it pumps up and if oil does indeed travel to the hole at the push rod.  I found more bad lifters.  I ended up buying more lifters and sending back the bad ones until I got a set that passed the test.  The engine has been in the truck for three years now with no problems.

BTW the reason we made the test fixture was we didn't want to keep taking the intake manifold on and off to keep testing lifters.

I feel the quality of the aftermarket lifters today  is awful.

Dear LeMans,

         Initially, I thought that it had broken off.  Later, I looked more carefully and it had not broken off, but *worn* off due to the sub-standard hardness.  When I pulled all the other push rods, there was another one with similar abnormal wear.  Where the metal went, is through the oil system including the oil filter. The engine runs much more quietly and as strong as ever with sixteen fully functional and properly hardened push rods.

                      Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

There is a tradeoff on hardness.

I had a racing set of push rods from Crane. A brand that I never question the quality of.  Hardened for use with guide plates. I ran them a few miles and then all Hell broke loose.

I was only a mile from home so I was able to limp home.

When I took it apart I found that the tips on two had broken off near the lifters and many if not all had cracked through the dimple weld that held the tips on.

Crane refunded the purchase price and I wouldn't take another set from them.

The explanation was "a bad batch of metal", but in reality they had been over hardened to the level of what a good drill bit is.

You don't use a drill bit as a drift pin because it will shatter...badly.

Anyone who works with metals will tell you that in hardening or tempering it, at some point the metal gets brittle and will shatter like tempered glass will.

So really, there is a "sweet zone" for the hardness of the metal depending on the application intended.

The fact is that in many cases it is better to have it softer and bend then too hard and shatter. It is very easy to criticize this and basically what is happening is that once you get away from OEM parts, the aftermarket is a crap shoot regardless of how well meaning the MFG is.

Here is the culprit

I haven't dropped it off yet but it's certain the camshaft is pretty damaged too.

I know this has happened to at least one other person with the same camshaft and lifters. I'll message Bullet Racing and see how they explain it

@cengles posted:

Dear LeMans,

         Initially, I thought that it had broken off.  Later, I looked more carefully and it had not broken off, but *worn* off due to the sub-standard hardness.  When I pulled all the other push rods, there was another one with similar abnormal wear.  Where the metal went, is through the oil system including the oil filter. The engine runs much more quietly and as strong as ever with sixteen fully functional and properly hardened push rods.

                      Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

That’s bad.. did you stick a magnet on the new oil filter?

Dear Le Mans,

          I have a magnet on the oil filter of both Panteras and have had for quite some time.

                          Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

There have been many that have gone to the hydraulic roller camshaft. The vast majority seemingly have not had issues with it.

Apparently though enough have had this kind of issue with components to it.

There are many that scoff at what I do as, i.e., the component decisions that I make as "old hat from the 'old guy' ". Perhaps that is right but one thing that will never happen at my end is to have this kind of failure simply because I will never go to a roller lifter camshaft. It simply introduces an additional level of potential component failure in the valve train that ultimately can have catastrophic consequences.

The potential failure risk far out ways the small benefits of using a hydraulic lifter valve train.

I personally have seen this type of failure too often. The roller lifter solution simply is not a bulletproof one. Why risk it?

I'm sorry for your loss.

Doug, I tend to agree with you. Hydraulic roller lifters should be reliable. After all, they are OEM in 5.0L Mustangs where they do not have reliability issues, that I’m aware of. The problem is, the lifters are heavy, which creates the need for heavy valve springs to control the inertia they create. Solid roller lifters are better in this regard. These heavy springs create a very hard, short life for the tiny needle bearings that live inside the rollers. The only partial solution is to lower your max RPM expectations and fit the very lightest valve springs possible. That’s how Ford dealt with this issue in the 5.0L. Solid roller lifters are a bit lighter than hydraulic roller lifters, so they can get away with lighter valve springs. As a result, they are more reliable
As I mentioned in Marlin’s pilot bearing thread, Isky makes solid roller lifters that use the same style of bearing as his pilot bearings. No needle bearings! Unfortunately, they are expensive and so far unavailable as hydraulic lifters.

@davidnunn posted:

Doug, I tend to agree with you. Hydraulic roller lifters should be reliable. After all, they are OEM in 5.0L Mustangs where they do not have reliability issues, that I’m aware of. The problem is, the lifters are heavy, which creates the need for heavy valve springs to control them. Solid roller lifters are better in this regard. These heavy springs create a very hard, short life for the tiny needle bearings that live inside the rollers. The only partial solution is to lower your max RPM expectations and fit the very lightest valve springs possible. That’s how Ford dealt with this issue in the 5.0L. Solid roller lifters are a bit lighter than hydraulic roller lifters, so they are more reliable.
As I mentioned in Marlin’s pilot bearing thread, Isky makes solid roller lifters that use the same style of bearing as his pilot bearings. No needle bearings! Unfortunately, they are expensive and so far unavailable as hydraulic lifters.

My solution is simple. I use a solid lifter cam and valve train.

They are the lightest of all, offer the greatest longevity and the highest rpm potential.

To me, they are also the easiest to maintain.

To me, when you find the answer, stop looking.

To me, "There ain't no Coupe DeVille at the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box". - Meatloaf is correct on this point.

Some folks are like the Conquistadors searching for the city of gold that never comes.

I had the same configuration of a Bullet cam and Morel (branded as Bullet) lifters.

What happened to me was one of the link bars came loose when one of the rivets popped off of the lifter pair.

That allowed the roller lifter to rotate in the lifter bore, which wore both the cam lobe and the lifter roller.

Once mine started wearing, it wore very fast, in about 200 miles.  Post-disassembly, appeared to be just the failure of the lifter pair (the rivet), but not an engine build issue.

Doug - I think you’re being a little harsh on people who choose different solutions?

If you recall – not that long ago, everybody was talking about how catastrophically solid lifters fail because of a lack of ZzZz ZzZzP.  

You pays your money and you takes your chances.  Everybody puts a lot of thought into these motors when you’re spending 10 grand or more to build one. It’s easy in retrospect look back and say “oh you shouldn’t have done that”.  

And like you said, lots of people have built this configuration motors and they have run well.

Anyway – good luck with the fix Rene.  I suspect you’re going to want to disassemble your engine and flush it out. I like the Bullet Cams spec, but I went with a different roller lifter manufacturer on the repair.

Rocky

With two clearly documented failures of the same part, people may consider not sourcing their roller lifters from Bullet, if that’s the path they choose!

I removed all the lifters and some have abnormal wear

Doug, you may be right, solid flat lifters may be a better solution but if I change now I will have to change all the lifters, pushrods and, to take advantage of the weight, all the springs. That is a lot of work and money.

I sent Bullet a message and am waiting for their response.

That’s interesting, Rene…

It would seem that the only way to get wear there is if the (or both) lifter body was / were  able to rotate in the bore(s).

As I recall, there’s a lot of gap on those link bars, so it would have to move a good distance to be able to touch there…

Let us know what they say…. How long did you run your engine since you’ve built it?

This is all about risk analysis. There should be enough data available to project a clear picture of the risks.

I don't tell anyone what to do and frankly while I am involved in building something I like to keep that secret incase it doesn't go so well. Plus, some, like my wife use me as a negative barometer and whisper, don't do what that jerk does.

As far as my personal success and failure rate goes, the bumps on my head should indicate that learning from failure should have made me a genius and sadly (to me) in has not.

As far as mixing in zddp as a preventative to failure, I've tried that and it mixes strangely with my Vodka. It hasn'nt made me any stupider but there is only so low you can go?

In actuality the lack of quality control of new components, particularly in the aftermarket ultimately is the culpret.

I would also theorize, right or wrong, that if you want the same dependability on these roller cams, then you should model OEM ones. Those have got thousands if not millions of test miles on THOSE solutions. Not some re-application of Pro Stock racing engine solutions that may or may not have the same dependability?

After seeing that simple failure of the retaining rivets, how comfortable are you going to feel with running one in YOUR car and exactly how many trouble free miles do you expect to put on those components?

For example, there are people running titanium valve train components on the street. NASCAR race cars change those out after every race.

How many miles are you going to put on those?

Yes Rocky. All food for thought. We can all share our various experiences here. When there is a reoccuring theme though, I would take those into consideration as to, what will I do if those break on me or maybe is it worth the risk for little gained.

...and OEM engines running roller lifter assemblies are designed for that, not added onto modified flat lifter cams.

I also noticed that in Medical experiments, there is always one person that gets the placebo that winds up with a miracle cure! So some notice that it simply defies logic yet there it is in black and white. I think that happens in these automotive experiments sometimes also?

I was only pointing out my train of thought on selecting a valve train and everyone should have as much information as they can get in order to make their own decision of which way to go.

Here is Bullet's first response:

Hello Rene,

for the lifter to have that much damage to the wheel the problem started from the beginning of running the engine.
The tie bar of the lifter should not have any stress on it unless something hits it or the camshaft is improperly installed.
What type of damage do the other lifters have? If the tie bars have similar wear it could be an installation issue.
What damage does the camshaft have?

Chris

They are in bad faith!
I told them I knew this happened to Rocky a few years ago and I'm waiting for their second response

I have run about 1600 miles since the engine rebuild.

It is true that the tie bar do not have any stress but I think that it undergoes heat treatment to harden it and if this treatment is poorly done, it becomes fragile and breaks with vibrations.

HA! IN THEORY the bar has no stress on it however if the rollers are not perfectly square, flat and parallel it will induce an inertia to make the lifter turn.

That will make the bar act as a pry bar and pull the rivet out.

Also if the lobe of the cam is not perfectly "square" to the center line it will induce the lifter to turn.

That is all irrelevant. The question is really, "are you going to warranty the kit or not"?

Exactly WTF could you have screwed up in the cam installation? You put it in backwards, sideways or upside down?

I got the same "crap" from Compcams when I opened the box and the distributor drive gears crumbled off of the camshaft.

They told me, "that is not covered by our warranty BUT to maintain good customer relations, we will replace the cam FOR FREE!"

Here is the actual truth about camshafts. They only spot check them for quality and accuracy. The big companies have like five slave machines all grinding the same profile together and the operator just loads the blanks in and runs the system.

They don't check every cam and every lobe. They don't check every cam blank before the load it. That is too time consuming and therefore too expensive.

Don't let them shovel BS on you.

here is my response to Bullet

If the problem had started right from the beginning, the clicking noise would have appeared very quickly, which is not the case. I have only driven about 40 miles to home since the noise started and it has increased in intensity quite quickly.

Doug sez:

“In actuality the lack of quality control of new components, particularly in the aftermarket ultimately is the culprit.”

This is absolutely correct in these modern times!