Is this legit

Not sure - can't really tell by the description and the photos aren't clear enough. Does the license plate opening look like a US-plate or a Euro-plate? That would be a hint, although the serial number would be the only real way to tell for sure.

That car is located just oustide if Seattle...not LA. A few people have seen this guy's collection of neglected Panteras (I think he has 4 or 5) and have said that they all need work. I haven't heard if this is a true euro car or not. He also has lots of spare parts including hoods, decklids and fenders.


John

The rear panel certainly doesn't look wide enough to be a 'Euro' spec (comapre it to my Avatar). Plus the speedo only has enough bold digits to be a US MPH one as well as the KMH ones have a lot more numbers crammed in to get to 300!

Good point Charlie. It would appear to be a US size license plate notch judging by proportion on the picture in relation to my US 73.

I like the paint in all red.

Not sure if the license plate size is conclusive. My UK car had a US style size area for the license plate so it has a UK motorcycle type plate that fits the space. Remember that De Tomaso often just used whatever was handy at the time when they were assembling these cars

Cars location if you look at the bottom left hand corner of the ad states Woodinville, Washington.
Jeff

I think that DT has a Euro GTS and it has the US plate knotch.

I looked at a euro 74 GTS and it had the small knotch too.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I think that DT has a Euro GTS and it has the US plate knotch.

I looked at a euro 74 GTS and it had the small knotch too.

Yep, and mine has the same speedometer too. 300 KPH. I get a lot of folks who ask me if she will really do 300 and of course, I ham it up.

5318 also has a US sized license plate notch, but has Euro Bumpers front and rear, European Gauges in Italian with both KPH and MPH on the speedo. The previous owner of my car always represented the car as a European GTS and That what I am going with!

The rear panel size is consistent with the "transition" cars. The larger (Euro) panel size tended to begin later. The speedo (in Kmh) is consistent also.
For regular visitors of my website,
see my draft version article on gauges.

http://www.provamo.com/Members/TechInfo/Gauges.asp

I'm waiting for contact back from the seller.

Chuck Melton

My understanding is that the wide license plate opening is not a "Euro" vs "US" issue. All Panteras built until 1978 had the narrow opening, because DeTomaso was still using left over stampings from the Ford era. When those ran out, the new rear clips were all then made with the new wide opening. George Pence wrote an excellent summary of this history previously here on the PIBB:

"...while Ford built Panteras they were contractually obligated to supply Panteras to deTomaso for the European market. Ford & the deTomasos parted company on Sept. 8, 1973. Ford stopped producing Panteras around July 1974, the last Pantera shipped to the US was chassis number 7380. Ford closed the deTomaso Automobili factory and sold the remaining unfinished coaches to Alejandro deTomaso, who opened another factory under the name deTomaso Modena and continued assembling GTS Panteras, at a much slower pace, using the coaches he purchased from Ford. Those cars have chassis numbers 7501 to <7700.

As the coaches purchased from Ford ran out (about 1976), deTomaso contracted Carozzeria Maggiora to manufacture GTS Pantera coaches. The relationship between Carozzeria Maggiora & deTomaso lasted less than 2 years. Those cars have chassis numbers 9001 to <9099.

After the relationship with Carozzeria Maggiora terminated, deTomaso contracted Carozzeria Embo in 1978 to manufacture Pantera coaches. Carozzeria Embo manufactured all the remaining Pantera coaches, including those of the Pantera Si. The coaches manufactured by Carozzeria Embo have chassis numbers 9101 to 9562, and 9601 to 9641 for the Pantera Si. For the first 2 years, Carozzeria Embo only produced GTS Panteras.

All the GTS, GT5 & GT5-S coaches manufactured by Carozzeria Embo have the squared off rear wheel houses.

your friend on the PIBB, George"

Charlie McCall has also posted valuable information on this subject:

"...regarding the squared-off engine bay... When Ford and DeTomaso divorced in '73, Ford, in a moment of spite, destroyed the tooling required to stamp out the car, figuring that DeTomaso wouldn't be able to continue manufacturing cars without the tooling. So instead of stamping out that area in one large die, they had to fabricate the area, welding panels together, more or less. Hence the straight, welded panels in the later cars. Again, it isn't model-specific, but instead when Alejandro ran out of stamped panels, everything from that point on was manufactured, regardless of model."

I admit to some confusion on my part about the Maggiora period, because most of the cars for which I have entries in the registry with chassis numbers from #9000 to #9100 have model years from 1978 to 1980, not 1976-1978 (the dates both George Pence and Franz Krump agree were Maggiora). The cars with chassis numbers higher than that are 1980 or newer model years.

In short, I believe it may have been both the Carozzeria Maggiora and Carozzeria Embo coaches that had the wide license plate openings, and it was certainly all the Embo cars. The one thing I am pretty sure about is that, based on the cars I have in the registry, after 1978 (chassis #9001 to #9641) all Panteras had the wide license plate opening.

Sample 1: #9046 - 1979 Pantera GTS - Germany

Sample 2: #9072 - 1977 Pantera GTS - Auto Salon Wurmbrand, Austria

Thanks for all the responses guys.

PeterH: This guy is claiming its a '79 so its probably bogus or could it be one of those anomolous transition deals?

Thanks

I sincerely doubt that it is a 1979 because it has the narrow license plate opening - unless the rear clip was replaced for some reason. You will know for sure if you can get the seller to send you a photo of the engine compartment and the VIN plate. If the engine bay is made of squared-off panels, then it can be a 1979. However, if it is made of the original rounded Ford stamping, then it will be a pre-'78. Similarly, if the chassis number is lower than 9000, then it will be an earlier car.

There are some inaccuracies in the historic record surrounding the Pantera such as who owned what companies. The DeTomaso family has not been big on correcting that, but I have heard a few things. The various registries are helping to slowly clarify the production history as chassis numbers & build dates are being collected.

One thing is certain, Ford owned Vignale and Vignale manufactured the Ford spec Pantera coaches. This is why Ford was able to destroy the body stampings. I am under the impression that ALL of the coaches built by Vignale had US sized license plate openings.

It has been rumored all along that somebody at Ford who was friendly towards DeTomaso sold approximately 200 left over Vignale coaches to DeTomaso after Ford closed down the coachworks at Vignale (Fall 1974). So far this has held true, the latest Vignale coach known to me at this time is 7554, that car (a group 3) was manufactured in 1975. 7554 is 174 coaches more than 7380, the last Pantera imported to North America by Ford. I cannot say if any Panteras were assembled in 1976. The Maggiora cars began appearing in 1977.

cowboy from hell

Of course this may be a fairly late car that just didn't get registered and titled until 1979, thus the owner isn't necessarily misrepresenting it. The VIN# will only indicate what year the coach was manufactured.