It's dead

Yep. I remember when I had the old engine in, it would never start after it had gotten hot. I would have to sit there and wait for the engine to cool down. Like an hour before she would turn over fast enough to catch. I had to arrange my driving around that little annouance. But I will be honest, now that it is fixed, I wouldn't ever go back to "just being patient".

The stock fuel delivery system is vulnerable to vapor lock. You usually need a hot engine to create the conditions.

In order to eleviate the problem, the carb needs a superior heat isolator gasket, the fuel system needs a really good fuel pump.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to switch the fuel pickup location for the system to the bottom tank plug either.

If you are going to be stuborn and resist, you at least need to verify fuel pressure at the carb and check you fuel level settings HOT.

105? Ah that ain't nothing. The car doesn't know the difference. Only you feel it.

I know only I felt the heat...and I WAS feeling it. It was 105 outside, but hotter in the car, with the windows up (because of the rain) and high humidity. I was soaked in sweat. Eventually I got out of the car because it was better to be soaked with cool water.


I waited for two hours but it just clicked, with the occasional attempt to turn over, but it didn't fire. I was able to do that because of my phone. I must have answered fifty emails and taken 20 calls (and I typed my rant above).

When I ran out of work to do I called the tow truck.

Thanks for the advice...sorry this turned into an accidental tech forum-type post.

It did feel like vapor lock. The engine was running hot (210-220). It has a new carb, and the mechanic removed the two inch spacer which he said was probably for heat isolation. I told him I was OK with removing it because it meant I could finally see with my rear view mirror. Maybe it needs to go back in. The fuel pump has been checked.

Robert
#4680

Time to go home.

There are different types of carb insulators. Probably a 1/2" phenolitic spacer plate will work.

The problem with the Pantera is that the fuel pump has to draw the fuel upward to get it out of the tank.
Fuel pumps don't like to suck. Especially when it is hot and fuel can vaporize in the fuel line just from the heat of the atmosphere, not to mention the heat of the Pantera engine compartment.

If you don't insulate the carb in some way when you shut off the engine the heat rises out of the engine and will actually boil the fuel out of the carb. Sometimes it perculates so much (like a coffee pot) that you will flood the engine will fuel just sitting there.

210-220 isn't terrible if your fuel line is pressurized properly. New cars normally run hotter then that. You really need 7 psi at the carb especially when it is hot.

The engine will tell you that it is too hot when you try to start it and the starter can't turn the engine over or it does so very slowly.
That isn't a weak battery or even a weak starter necessarily. It means the engine is HOT.

105 degrees and raining? Wow. That's screwie.
I've never experienced that. That must "stay in Vegas" huh?

Robert,

Aside from being verry careful, how did you get the car on the flatbed without power and avoid scraping the air dam or damaging with the pull cable?
Sorry to hear about your trouble. Yep, been there done that.

Cousteau

On the bright side, the car looks great!!!

Robert, my man, I haven't a technical insight to share really but empathize with completely.

Truly "been there".

The FIRST DAY I got my car, it sputtered as if on low fuel, then I filled up and pffft. Died. Would start, then upon giving gas, died again. VERY FRUSTRATING.

MY PROB was fuel delivery, as in a fuel filter that looked like roof tar. Changed it out, poof! Came to life. Paranoia or the lessened desire to sit by the side of the road any more and I got - New fuel pump, lines, another inline filter etc. THAT problem is gone.

Hey, you've got a GORGEOUS car that WILL run and make you happy, but it's old, and needs attention. Listen to the wise people on this board and enjoy that thing.

Keep us posted. It's gonna be great.

Well, having been there like the rest of us, this is one of the problems that money easily solves. After complex fixes, I just went to the hi torque starter, heavy duty alternator, MSD ignition with a new coil. I never have any problem starting - hot, cold, or wet - from Death Valley to Canadian Winters.

Hey Robert - I too have been there - although if I wait a while, it will fire up again - so that sounds a bit different than your situation - folks said that because of that, it appears to be a starter motor issue - Deeb, what starter motor did you get??

Robert, keep us posted on the fix - and hang in there.

I got Hall's mega torque starter and 100 amp alternator.

Hey Robert, that is one nice car you have there. Don't worry. Be happy. Over time it will reflect your own good taste and become a fabulous, reliable, Porsche and Ferrari killer. Not to worry.

Thanks for all the support and advice. I have taken a lot of time (and around $8,000) to make sure the car has everything it needs to come back from four years in storage.

The clicking/non starting seams to be the last remaining problem...assuming the high water temp will be fixed by installing the correct thermostat and the vapor lock will be fixed by putting the original carb back on (the new one doesn't seam to get better milage anyway, might as well go back the doube pumper).

Deeb, make sure you call me before going to events...I would hate to show up wearing the same car. Our cars will be disturbing alike when I paint my bumpers and trim black. Where can I find more pictures of your ride?

R.

Cousteau, I use the same towing company every time. They have a lot of experience with exotics and they don't rush.

They use a lot of wood in front of the ramp to decrease the angle, and it makes it up the ramp with a half inch to spare.

R.

I can relate to the sitting thing.
My issues were directly related to a loose nut behind the wheel though.
NEVER take a Pantera through an auto wash with an under carriage spray..........
I was in a hurry, trying to get the car ready for a car show the next morning so I "cheated", kept it going through the deluge and out the other side, but I shut it off too soon after to wipe her down. Moisture in the distributor kept me in the parkinglot for an hour and a half.
Got to meet a bunch of people who stopped to look at the "cool car" lol. Even broke down, you still have the coolest car in the lot.
Is it possible your issue may have been related to the rain and high humidity?

I got my distributor wet once as well. Met many people while waiting for it to start.

But no, this clicking happens more and more often. Today, days after it vapor locked and died it continues. This morning I turned the key, it cranked but didn't fire. Every time I tried turned the key after that it just clicked. It isn't the battery and jumping doesn't help.

R.

So what did the problem turn out to be?

Robert,

I'm going to take a stab here and suggest you have electrical connection trouble.

A poor electrical connection adds resistance to a circuit, creates a voltage drop, leaves less voltage to supply the load, the point of resistance will get hot, and as it gets hotter the resistance increases, the voltage drop becomes worse...

A bad engine ground will affect both the starter and the ignition.

Start at the battery and service the connections at both ends of the following cables: (1) chassis ground to battery (2) battery to starter relay (3) starter relay to starter (4) engine block to chassis (5) transmission to chassis.

The ignition switch should always be suspect. If your car has electronic ignition (MSD 6AL is most common) then the current in the ignition circuit is too much for the contacts in the ignition switch. those contacts shall burn, create another point of resistance & the resulting voltage drop will eventually result in insufficient voltage to the ignition.

This can be checked by acquiring a 12 foot length of 12 gauge stranded wire with alligator clips on both ends. Hook one end of the wire to the battery and the other end to the supply terminal of the ignition. If the motor runs with this jumper in place, but does not run with it removed, your ignition switch is toast. time to install a relay to supply the ignition.

cowboy from hell

Sounds like the same symptoms that happened to me when my alternator went.
Will

George,

Thank you for the advice. The car is going to the shop today or tomorrow and I will give them a printout of your post.

They will also be checking the fuel pump per PanteraDoug's advice for the other problem.

Turns out that my thermostat is now on backorder until the 30th, so I haven't solved that problem either.

Funny, I took the car to the shop to get it road worthy and address a few specific problems: not starting and overheating. After all the work that I have had done, I have two remaining problems to solve: not starting and overheating. What the heck?

:-)

R.

You will get it working. These are "lack of use" issues.
Go out and drive it around so it doesn't happen anymore.

I will drive it around all the time...as soon as it starts spending time in MY garage instead of THE garage.

It has been in the shop for most of the four months I have owned it. Not for serious problems, but for the "lack of use" issues you mentioned. When these last two problem are fixed I will post all the things that I have done to this monster.

The good news: I got the "nudge nudge wink wink" smog check done and the car is finally registered. So I hope to be putting a lot of miles on it, starting next week.

R.

A Hudson was correct. The engine wasn't firing because the fuel pump took a crap. We (well, my mechanic, but I paid so that counts as "we", right?) installed a new electic fuel pump and it seems to be doing well.

This morning we fix the OTHER starting problem. I turm the key and it just clicks behind the firewall...the starter doesn't crank.

Not asking for advice as this isn't a tech forum, just updating because someone asked what the problem was when it died last Friday.

R.

Glad to hear that you are working out the details.

If you have solved the fuel problem with the electric fuel pump be aware that it needs to be mounted low.
What do I mean by low? At the bottom of the tank or lower.
If you don't you are still subject to vapor lock when the tank is somewhat less the about 1/2 full.

I am running a Holley high pressure (7psi +/-) and it essentially needs a gravity feed of fuel.

It doesn't like to suck uphill at all. Once the fuel flow is broken between the pickup and the pump, it is sucking air unless you keep it low.

For a stock type car a internal tank mounted pump is a really good idea. Just make sure that you are sure that you don't need a pressure regulator with it.

The pump is loooowwww, so hopefully there will be no problem. Thanks for the reference...if I have problems with less than 1/2 a tank of fuel I will know where to start trouble shooting.

To help with running-hot issue we replaced a weak fan with a 1350 cfm version and added Water Wetter.

Just in case that doesn't fix the problem with the car just clicking (not engaging the starter) when hot, we put insulation around the starter to see if that helps.

R.

quote:

Originally posted by RobertVegas:
A Hudson was correct.

R.

Please make a note of this, since this must also mean Haley's Comet is due to reappear. Robert, I plan to print that out and have it framed.

Glad your problems are systematically sorting out. I promise you'll get there. I used water wetter also (trying anything to knock a degree or two out) plus have the extra special Edelbrock waterpump. My car runs to 190, then the big fans up front come on, and hold it between there and about 210ish. (Maybe more, I'm optimistic.)

This past weekend, I noticed my old radiator cap was barely on the car, I mean it 'rattled' in place, so I scrapped that in favor of a 13 PSI 'new' one.

My car's been burped, had its diapers changed, all that as well. It runs borderline hot but not bad - - never coughed it up since these changes.

Things'll get better for you! Keep at it!

Robert,
I'm surprised now one has mentioned your starter solenoid. The clicking you're describing is your starter solenoid. Check voltage at the battery to make sure your battery isn't toast. If the battery has sufficient voltage (12-14), then spend $20 on a new Voltage Regulator and be done with this problem. They're cheap and take less than 10 minutes to change - just 2 screws holding it to the firewall in the engine compartment on the passenger side. If you have a fancy-schmancy starter with an internal solenoid, then you need to pull and replace your starter. Good luck, and let us know when it's fixed.

Robert,
My car was always hard to start when hot, even after replacing the battery and installing one of the high torque mini starters. What finally solved the problem was replacing the ground strap from the trans to the chassis.
Good luck,
Art

The solenoid clicks but the starter won't crank. My mechanic says he can drop it into fifth gear, push the car to change the position of the motor/flywheel and it will crank...I don't know what that means, I assume he does.


The fuel pump WAS dying, but wasn't the problem that was keeping the car from firing when it decided to crank on occasion (when hot). I am being told there is no spark, and they think it is the coil. They are dropping a stock distributor in to test that theory. If that solves the problem I will get a new distributor and be done.

The ground strap is on my list of things to replace.

It is obvious that I have two separate (but maybe related) problems. I think we are close to solving them.

The sorting-out process has been looooong in getting this car back in top shape, but it is turning out to be GREAT!

I'll bet that you have too much advance in the distributor. It can make the car hard to crank.

I know that the MSD system I had in the car sometimes just wouldn't fire. No apparent reason for it, it just didn't want to get out of bed I guess.

No more MSD crap now, just Motorcraft. The Motorcraft brain also will reduce the the cranking advance. If the voltage is to low, it doesn't fire.

Two factors important here, battery and ignition switch. All ignition switches can reduce the voltage to the ignition system when they are burnt. The Pantera switch was marginal at best even when brand new.

Something to keep in mind.

Don't give up you are almost home and you will be an expert when you are done. Poorer sure, but wiser.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RobertVegas:
"The solenoid clicks but the starter won't crank. My mechanic says he can drop it into fifth gear, push the car to change the position of the motor/flywheel and it will crank...I don't know what that means, I assume he does".

I'm no expert on the subject, but it sounds to me like the starter is bad if the engine will start after moving the car a bit while in gear.

"I am being told there is no spark, and they think it is the coil. They are dropping a stock distributor in to test that theory. If that solves the problem I will get a new distributor and be done".


If it is a bad coil, why are they changing the distributor, I don't get it?

Art

Art, you are correct in both cases:

We are replacing the starter.

I left out a bunch of info on the other topic. They called while I was typing and gave me new info that I didn't put in the post. They did some testing and decided it was the distributor, not the coil...so they are dropping in a stock distributor to see if it fixes the problem. If it solves the problem, I will replace it with the distributor of my choice.

R.