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Very nice!
I'm thinking of decorating mine by making them look like beer cans? Budwiser would look good right? Like the racing boat. "Miss Budwiser".
What'a ya think?
I'm thinking of decorating mine by making them look like beer cans? Budwiser would look good right? Like the racing boat. "Miss Budwiser".
What'a ya think?
That's only 7. How about Goofy on #8?
These are the o-rings you need for the cookie tray.
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Went with something different.
My manifold is low Pro i think, because I have lots of clearance to the roof.
I made a nice plastic cover that will snap across the fuel rails, cleanly covering everything underneath, and holding the temp sensor as well.
I still have to make the snaps for the cover, and install the beauty covers, but she's done, save for the screens.
Here's some sexy shots of the new look
My manifold is low Pro i think, because I have lots of clearance to the roof.
I made a nice plastic cover that will snap across the fuel rails, cleanly covering everything underneath, and holding the temp sensor as well.
I still have to make the snaps for the cover, and install the beauty covers, but she's done, save for the screens.
Here's some sexy shots of the new look
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and even sexier
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and sexiest of all (for the moment, it's gonna get WAY better soon)
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It looks nice.
You can put spacers under the throttle bodies. Many of the specialty shops offer them made out of billet aluminum.
Wasn't it determined (in an earlier post) that YOUR intake manifold is the Hall Weber manifold that was sectioned to fit the taller deck height that you have?
If so, it's the same height manifold as I have. The greater space that you have is just because your TB's are shorter then the Webers are.
These are solid 1" spacers. There are 2" spacers also.
They won't hurt anything, just will lengthen the distance to the intake valve and give you more low end. You don't want that right?
You can put spacers under the throttle bodies. Many of the specialty shops offer them made out of billet aluminum.
Wasn't it determined (in an earlier post) that YOUR intake manifold is the Hall Weber manifold that was sectioned to fit the taller deck height that you have?
If so, it's the same height manifold as I have. The greater space that you have is just because your TB's are shorter then the Webers are.
These are solid 1" spacers. There are 2" spacers also.
They won't hurt anything, just will lengthen the distance to the intake valve and give you more low end. You don't want that right?
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And sexiest of all, here she is, all ready to go for a nice free breathing drive.
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So, just How Many HP am I supposed to gain by going open like this?, hmmm.
Sure would make my life easier to just run it as is now.
Plus, open stacks, I mean, you know.
Sure would make my life easier to just run it as is now.
Plus, open stacks, I mean, you know.
You tell us!
Take it out and give us the "seat of the pants" assessment!
Looks good!
(Or you could Dyno it - with and without air cleaners).
Take it out and give us the "seat of the pants" assessment!
Looks good!
(Or you could Dyno it - with and without air cleaners).
Air cleaners are boxed up for now. The car will run in this configuration for a while at least.
I DO plan to add screens a-la Panteradoug.
Still have to go to Wal-Mart and get my screens, then I'll PM him and ask for the secret rubber mounting method.
I think at least for a little while I'm going to let Snow White breathe a little, and run her open, just like in the pics.
I DO plan to add screens a-la Panteradoug.
Still have to go to Wal-Mart and get my screens, then I'll PM him and ask for the secret rubber mounting method.
I think at least for a little while I'm going to let Snow White breathe a little, and run her open, just like in the pics.
With my basic knowledge of aerodynamics, the stacks are located in a low-pressure zone if I'm not mistaken.
The shape of the rear of the car is such that is almost acts like a diffuser, causing debris to be sucked up into the car from underneath.
I'm wondering if window scoops might help with keeping the area behind the window where the stacks are in more of a high-pressure state, and therefore possibly lowering the chances of stuff getting sucked up and making it's way to the stacks
The shape of the rear of the car is such that is almost acts like a diffuser, causing debris to be sucked up into the car from underneath.
I'm wondering if window scoops might help with keeping the area behind the window where the stacks are in more of a high-pressure state, and therefore possibly lowering the chances of stuff getting sucked up and making it's way to the stacks
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
With my basic knowledge of aerodynamics, the stacks are located in a low-pressure zone if I'm not mistaken....
It has been stated here that (i believe) the Boxer design suffered a loss of HP at speed due to the low pressure zone created by a similaer roofline. the Boxer "suger scoop" was an improvement. this is the GTS roof spoiler.
When I contemplate cusomizing my build, I have though of using the orignal roof spoiler and adding a blocking edge on the underside in hopes of creating a high pressure area there
Oh yea, those stacks do look sexy!
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I can see my car running a sugar scoop (possibly with your trip-strip idea) and a ductail spoiler.
Next after the air screens (if I do it) is getting my front decklid, sides, and rear trunk wrapped in satin black, with a large Pantera graphic lettering on the side.
That should finish off the look I'm going for.
Next after the air screens (if I do it) is getting my front decklid, sides, and rear trunk wrapped in satin black, with a large Pantera graphic lettering on the side.
That should finish off the look I'm going for.
Webers typically will loose around 80 hp with air cleaners on them. I don't know about FI TB's? I would presume they are similar?
The sugar scoop is what you want over the stacks. You do not need a ram air effect on a Pantera, just access to enough volume of air which you already have.
The window scoops are also in a dead air area. The air stream is actually along the roof of the car and the "bat ear" shape is because the edge of the scoop needs to reach up into that air stream.
As it turns out, this type of a velocity stack does not like being in a turbulent air flow location. They like drawing in gentle air, like the drain in a sink or a bathtub.
Drawing air flow from beneath the car works into the concept but it is not quite a vacuum cleaner effect in the this car.
There is an airscoop made for a Pantera which draws air from the top of the windshield and ducts it across the roof and directs it down into the window area.
It is a modification of a scoop built for the Poniac Fiero but the sugar scoop from the L's does the same thing.
Putting a 90 degree trailing edge on the roof spoiler is just going to add lift to the rear like full flaps do on an airplane. I don't think that you want to do that?
Look at this scoop. It is a modification of the Fiero thought.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...5562/m/4561096316/p1
This is Mad Dogs Pantera. It has the Bat Ear scoops on it. Notice how the corners stick up?
You need to watch this car in action. Then there will be no question why they call Denis "Mad Dog". It is very self explanatory?
The sugar scoop is what you want over the stacks. You do not need a ram air effect on a Pantera, just access to enough volume of air which you already have.
The window scoops are also in a dead air area. The air stream is actually along the roof of the car and the "bat ear" shape is because the edge of the scoop needs to reach up into that air stream.
As it turns out, this type of a velocity stack does not like being in a turbulent air flow location. They like drawing in gentle air, like the drain in a sink or a bathtub.
Drawing air flow from beneath the car works into the concept but it is not quite a vacuum cleaner effect in the this car.
There is an airscoop made for a Pantera which draws air from the top of the windshield and ducts it across the roof and directs it down into the window area.
It is a modification of a scoop built for the Poniac Fiero but the sugar scoop from the L's does the same thing.
Putting a 90 degree trailing edge on the roof spoiler is just going to add lift to the rear like full flaps do on an airplane. I don't think that you want to do that?
Look at this scoop. It is a modification of the Fiero thought.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...5562/m/4561096316/p1
This is Mad Dogs Pantera. It has the Bat Ear scoops on it. Notice how the corners stick up?
You need to watch this car in action. Then there will be no question why they call Denis "Mad Dog". It is very self explanatory?
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quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
...This is Mad Dogs Pantera....You need to watch this car in action. Then there will be no question why they call Denis "Mad Dog". It is very self explanatory?
(Watch them in order)
1st https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lCf3w7SzWQ
2nd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fyqDIh2KIw
JFB
Thanks (I think) for those links. That second one was really depressing. Especially the fireman trying to open the trunk, from the front, with a fire ax. (?!?!?!)
Is PanteraDoug's picture of the blue car AFTER the fire??
Thanks (I think) for those links. That second one was really depressing. Especially the fireman trying to open the trunk, from the front, with a fire ax. (?!?!?!)
Is PanteraDoug's picture of the blue car AFTER the fire??
quote:Originally posted by MarsRed:
JFB
Thanks (I think) for those links. That second one was really depressing. Especially the fireman trying to open the trunk, from the front, with a fire ax. (?!?!?!)
Is PanteraDoug's picture of the blue car AFTER the fire??
Unknown. Probably before. Someone who is active in that region would know more. Probably Bosswrench might know?
On any car that is going to be raced hard like this an onboard fire extinguisher system is as close to a must as you can get to.
The proximity of the fuel tank to the source of the fire is always a concern in a Pantera.
Unfortunately well meaning firemen with axes are always an issue. Courage is what they excel at, not smarts?
The blue car pic is after the fire. The car was black when the fire took place. It was painted blue during the rebuild.
Ron
Ron
I had always thought fire was the death of car/frame metal
I saw one of the Cobra Coupes burn like that. I don't remember what year. 64 or 65. Daytonna or Sebring.
Everyone thought the car was destroyed.
It was back the next day and people thought Shelby had a hundred of them as backups?
It all depends on the nature of the fire. Gas fires are hot and they usually warp the sheet metal like the decklids.
I'm not sure why the front of that Pantera was burning? Maybe just from the heat, the tires caught fire?
I didn't notice what wheels were on it but magnesium definitely burns.
On the room above the stacks, this is what I have.
These are 5" tall stacks. There are 6-1/2" stacks, the source of which I could not find.
Those would have been too close to the clear plexiglass roof/roof extension that you see in this picture. It's there as a water shield so you can't take a hose and squirt it at the open stacks.
The silly aluminum panels on the carbs sit over the screens and do the same thing.
The screens keep large unfortunate animals like bears from getting sucked in.
Towards the rear of the engine, there is only about 1/2" clearance between the screen and the plexiglass.
That's where the top of the 6-1/2" stacks would be and is too close to put a screen on and the rule of thumb with stacks is that you want the same space above the stack as the diameter of the stack.
These stacks are 3-1/4" od, so this height is ABOUT right with those parameters.
The rubber in the screen retaining rings is rated for 400 degrees F. Where they are located that should be fine.
I'm thinking about putting Budwieser decals on the stacks? They do look like beer cans, so why not?
Everyone thought the car was destroyed.
It was back the next day and people thought Shelby had a hundred of them as backups?
It all depends on the nature of the fire. Gas fires are hot and they usually warp the sheet metal like the decklids.
I'm not sure why the front of that Pantera was burning? Maybe just from the heat, the tires caught fire?
I didn't notice what wheels were on it but magnesium definitely burns.
On the room above the stacks, this is what I have.
These are 5" tall stacks. There are 6-1/2" stacks, the source of which I could not find.
Those would have been too close to the clear plexiglass roof/roof extension that you see in this picture. It's there as a water shield so you can't take a hose and squirt it at the open stacks.
The silly aluminum panels on the carbs sit over the screens and do the same thing.
The screens keep large unfortunate animals like bears from getting sucked in.
Towards the rear of the engine, there is only about 1/2" clearance between the screen and the plexiglass.
That's where the top of the 6-1/2" stacks would be and is too close to put a screen on and the rule of thumb with stacks is that you want the same space above the stack as the diameter of the stack.
These stacks are 3-1/4" od, so this height is ABOUT right with those parameters.
The rubber in the screen retaining rings is rated for 400 degrees F. Where they are located that should be fine.
I'm thinking about putting Budwieser decals on the stacks? They do look like beer cans, so why not?
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Answers to your qustions as I understand:
The Ferrari Boxer suffered from a loss of power (and valves) at very high speeds due to their Pantera-style decklid creating a swirl over the back end of the car. In the Ferrari, the carb air intakes were at the back edges of the decklid. At speeds above about 160 mph, the aero-swirl moved past the end of the decklid, leaving the air intakes running in a partial vacuum. The mixture went lean and much damage followed. The 'Boxer slat' modified the swirl such that the intakes continued to get air up to some much higher speed. Ferrari also later went to EFI, which may have been less speed-sensitive; dunno.
Mounted on a Pantera, the slat works nicely as a sunshade. Speculation is that in combination with a wing or ducktail spoiler, the Boxer-slat MAY make them more efficient, but to my knowledge, no one has ever actually tested this theory. Few consistently run their Panteras above 170 for more than seconds- if that.
This is the story of the blue car of Dennis Antennucci, as I remember him telling it. It ran stock cast-magnesium Campagnolo wheels, and due to a maintenance error by his mechanic, a bolt holding a stock rear caliper came loose. This allowed the iron caliper to move & drag on the inside of the magnesium rim. Enough friction heat was generated during a 92-mile Open Road event at speeds up to 170mph, that the right wheel ignited. A cover photo in Autoweek magazine showed the car crossing the finish line at a clocked 170+ while trailing a sheet of flame. The firemen at the event were untrained in dealing with burning mag, so when they sprayed the fire with water, the burning mag reacted to form hydrogen and oxygen, became far worse and the car subsequently burned to the ground with everyone watching from a safe distance. A year or so later, the entire car was completely restored and ran Open Road events again for at least a dozen more years with only small problems. Dennis still has his ol' blue car which looks pretty good for the life its led.
The Ferrari Boxer suffered from a loss of power (and valves) at very high speeds due to their Pantera-style decklid creating a swirl over the back end of the car. In the Ferrari, the carb air intakes were at the back edges of the decklid. At speeds above about 160 mph, the aero-swirl moved past the end of the decklid, leaving the air intakes running in a partial vacuum. The mixture went lean and much damage followed. The 'Boxer slat' modified the swirl such that the intakes continued to get air up to some much higher speed. Ferrari also later went to EFI, which may have been less speed-sensitive; dunno.
Mounted on a Pantera, the slat works nicely as a sunshade. Speculation is that in combination with a wing or ducktail spoiler, the Boxer-slat MAY make them more efficient, but to my knowledge, no one has ever actually tested this theory. Few consistently run their Panteras above 170 for more than seconds- if that.
This is the story of the blue car of Dennis Antennucci, as I remember him telling it. It ran stock cast-magnesium Campagnolo wheels, and due to a maintenance error by his mechanic, a bolt holding a stock rear caliper came loose. This allowed the iron caliper to move & drag on the inside of the magnesium rim. Enough friction heat was generated during a 92-mile Open Road event at speeds up to 170mph, that the right wheel ignited. A cover photo in Autoweek magazine showed the car crossing the finish line at a clocked 170+ while trailing a sheet of flame. The firemen at the event were untrained in dealing with burning mag, so when they sprayed the fire with water, the burning mag reacted to form hydrogen and oxygen, became far worse and the car subsequently burned to the ground with everyone watching from a safe distance. A year or so later, the entire car was completely restored and ran Open Road events again for at least a dozen more years with only small problems. Dennis still has his ol' blue car which looks pretty good for the life its led.
Well, "they" just don't say Dennis is "colorful" for nuthin'? 
The sugar scoop on the Pantera actually acts as somewhat of a roof extension for the Webers and deflects air downward towards the stacks.
With stacks, it is actually functional.
I find it a bit ironic that there are those Pantera aficionados that flat out resent add ons like the sugar scoop but will fall down on their knees worshiping a Lamborghini that all but adds lightening bolts coming out of the exhausts that makes those cars more applicable to a comic book then to reality?
I find that a contradiction of terms and just amazing?
The sugar scoop on the Pantera actually acts as somewhat of a roof extension for the Webers and deflects air downward towards the stacks.
With stacks, it is actually functional.
I find it a bit ironic that there are those Pantera aficionados that flat out resent add ons like the sugar scoop but will fall down on their knees worshiping a Lamborghini that all but adds lightening bolts coming out of the exhausts that makes those cars more applicable to a comic book then to reality?
I find that a contradiction of terms and just amazing?
It surprises that so much time has gone by that this generation of list members are unfamiliar with the Mad Dawg history. The heat from the fire and quick cooling by the firemen, made the metal work a real effort for the body guys repairing the damage. The metal was so hard that working it was difficult.
The resurrection of the car was a tribute to the camaraderie of fellow Pantera enthusiasts as replacement parts found their way to Dennis as a donation out of many garages. I don't know the % of parts donated as to what he actually had to pay to replace; but, I assume the number donated was impressive.
The resurrection of the car was a tribute to the camaraderie of fellow Pantera enthusiasts as replacement parts found their way to Dennis as a donation out of many garages. I don't know the % of parts donated as to what he actually had to pay to replace; but, I assume the number donated was impressive.
quote:Originally posted by JTpantera:
It surprises that so much time has gone by that this generation of list members are unfamiliar with the Mad Dawg history....
I am one of those that KNOWS NOTHIN and appreaciate when you fellows repeat the stories of old and share your knowledge.
Just then, You informed me of something I didn't consider was the quinching of the metal by fireman.
I had been wondering today if during the repairs if the entire body/frame had been subjected to some sort of heat treatment during the repair to restore the temper cause by the fire annealing, but it sounds like tempering to reduce the quich harding was needed
Went to the hardware store and found the exact same drain screens as Panteradoug, and then at the auto parts store, I found some weatherstripping/rubber/plastic-ish piping that wraps around the top of the stack and ends up looking identical to Panteradoug's setup.
Now I just have to decide if I want to remove the stacks, and do them one at a time, or try putting the screens on with the stacks installed on the car.
I'll probably freeball here for a few drives, and then tackle the whole job when I'm more mentally prepared.
Every job on this car is HUGE compared to working on ANY other car I swear!
In the end it'll be sweet though, and will be exactly what I want.
Now I just have to decide if I want to remove the stacks, and do them one at a time, or try putting the screens on with the stacks installed on the car.
I'll probably freeball here for a few drives, and then tackle the whole job when I'm more mentally prepared.
Every job on this car is HUGE compared to working on ANY other car I swear!
In the end it'll be sweet though, and will be exactly what I want.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Went to the hardware store and found the exact same drain screens as Panteradoug, and then at the auto parts store, I found some weatherstripping/rubber/plastic-ish piping that wraps around the top of the stack and ends up looking identical to Panteradoug's setup.
Now I just have to decide if I want to remove the stacks, and do them one at a time, or try putting the screens on with the stacks installed on the car.
I'll probably freeball here for a few drives, and then tackle the whole job when I'm more mentally prepared.
Every job on this car is HUGE compared to working on ANY other car I swear!
In the end it'll be sweet though, and will be exactly what I want.
Removing the stacks is one of the simplest things you can do on the car. If you are getting stressed out over that then maybe it's time to move onto something simpler?
Maybe a Prius? It has no velocity stacks at all?
You also want the edging to be rated for a useable temperature for the engine. The stuff I used is rated for 400F.
I could be wrong but I don't think that storm doors and window a/c units need to use anything that sophisticated.
The stainless mesh in the strainers also needs to be sturdy enough to not get sucked into the stacks under full load.
That is also part of the consideration in increasing the surface area of the screens.