Skip to main content

Here's one for you engine wizards, I've almost given up and ordered a crate engine Confused

It's my recently bought Longchamp, with original 351C and Holley Vacuum (looks like a 600cfm).

I got the car a week ago. It's been standing still for probably many years. I filled gas on both tanks and went for the first drive. I drove 10 miles and it worked fine, except it stumbled big time when pushing the accelerator more than ½ way down, so clearly the secondaries of the Holley needed repair. But idle and normal driving was fine.

Later that evening I started the car in my driveway, just to hear the engine. But it took a while to start and it missed on at least one cylinder right away. So I took out a few spark plugs, very black, and they were the wrong kind, too long threads and too cold.

Next day I took the Holley apart. Everything looked fine on the primaries. The secondaries had strange liquid gasket on the fuel bowl, and the float level turned down fully. And the vacuum diaphram was hardened from age (part 135-4). I corrected all this, ordered new diaphram, and new correct plugs.

I got the diaphram and plugs today and put it all in. Expectations were high. Unfortunately I got disappointed. The good news was that the secondary stumble was gone Smiler. But the idle quickly deteriorated. I stopped and pulled the plugs again. Plug 2, 3, 5 and 8 were very black while the others were perfect, or maybe a little lean, not easy to see with new plugs. 2, 3, 5 and 8 are fed by the top layer on the dual plane manifold, and the left part of the Holley. Note that since the Holley doesn't fit the manifold, DeTomaso put a spacer in between which is open on the secondaries so the dual planes are not totally seperated.

How can one side of the carb be so different? I've checked the obvious, the idle adjustment screws are both 1-1/4 turn out. The jets look fine.

But it get's worse! Confused As part of diagnostics I put a vacuum gauge to a manifold port, it was steady but only 10 InHg, the lowest I've ever seen. This low vacuum can of course add to my rich condition since the power valve will easily open, much more than if the engine at idle ran 20 InHg. But it still doesn't explain the diffence between the rich condition on plug 2, 3, 5 and 8 while the others look OK/lean.

I ruled out ignition timing because I already set it at 16 degrees, and I've never experienced wrong ignition timing lowering the vacuum that much. I also considered valve timing or other problems, but since the needle is steady, not fluctuating, I don't think this is about 1 cylinder, it's common for all cylinders.

I then started looking for the vacuum leak. I took off the carb, taped the 4 holes in the manifold and put air pressure on a manifold port. The pressure made the tape bulge upwards and stayed that way for several seconds, to me that means no leakage beyond the normal. Then I installed the carb, and taped everything above the aircleaner gasket base. And put pressure on again. Here it was a different result. The pressure made the tape bulge, but as soon as I stopped the air the tape got flat, clearly a major (comparatively) leakage. I then used a soapy mixture to try to see where the air got out, it had to be around the carb, but I only found a leakage around the primary throttle axis, and to me it looked small and all carbs have some leakage there, right?

So can anybody figure this out?
1. Why do I get an over rich condition on one side of the carb/manifold?
2. What does the steady 10 InHg vacuum tell me?
3. If 2. is a vacuum leakage, I think I've diagnosed it to the carb, but can't find the leak?
4. Is 1. and 3. the same problem? Can my Holley have an invisible vacuum leakage on one side only? And would that produce such a huge difference in mixture?
Last edited {1}
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Look at the pvc system. Disconnect and plug it at the intake manifold and see if it helps.

FYI the color of the plugs should be a dark brown-grey on the ceramic insulator an the tips should be clean.

This could all be ignition related and you could have a failing ignition system.

The engine vacuum definately should respond to increased advance. The difference would be something like 14-15 in-mg at 10-12 degrees and about 18 at 16.

An outside possibilaty is that the harmonic dampener has failed and slipped and you are reading the timing inaccurately.

A 40 year old dampener COULD fail on you without you knowing it.
Thanks for ideas

Today I got a little further. I took the Holley 600 vacuum from my Pantera and put it on the Longchamp. Then it ran fine! So it's a carb issue.

While it was running fine I took your advice and tried setting the ignition timing by ear instead of timing light. That improved the vacuum from 10 InHg to 16, almost normal. (The PVC system has been disabled by previous owner).
After that run I looked at the plugs, they were more even than before.

So the conclusion must be the Longchamp Holley is excessively rich on one side. I took it apart (again), also the bottom part, blew compressed air everywhere, and changed the power valve even though the old seemed OK. I then put it on the Longchamp, but still the same problem, plugs 2, 3, 5 and 8 way too rich.

How can the Holley be over rich on one side? I've also tried looking down into it while running, the fuel from the venturis look similar on both sides. Could it have a leak? Where? Any suggestions?
The Holley has air jets built into it inside the throats of the carbs. The are called AIR BLEEDS by Holley.

Each throat has two. One is the idle air bleed, the other is the high speed air bled.

The idle air bleed on the bank that is rich is probably clogged.
When they are clogged with gummy deposits you cannot normally blow them clear with compressed air.

What you need to do is to use a number drill bit of the correct size in a pin vise and "drill" the debris inside clear, then blow it out.

It is also possible that the power valve is blown out and for some very strange reason the fuel is only getting sucked in to one side of the intake manifold?

It is VERY common to have a blown out power valvein a Holley. Virtually ANY kind of backfire will blow them out and the excess fuel will show up in the idle characteristics of the engine.

While the carb is off install an anti-backfire valve in it. It won't protect the carb 100% but it will help.
Good idea about the air bleeds. They were actually clogged on the secondaries, maybe that's why some Italian mechanic had turned the float setting all the way down.

I've now drilled, run wires through and blown air through everything on that carb. But it still didn't get better. So now I've sort of given up. I've bought a used Holley like it, I get it on Monday, the plan is to use that carb on top of the Longchamp throttle plate. We'll see.

I know this is a bit off topic, but I got no answer in the Longchamp Forum yet. Since I had to wait for the new carb, I started on the other big issue on this car, the electrics. No wipers, no washer, no interior fan. But I haven't got a Longchamp wiring diagram. I do have a scan of a Deauville, but sorting out the wires when:
1. the wiring diagram is so small it's almost unreadable
2. All colours are written in Italian
3. It's from another car(!)
is not easy.
Does anybody have anything I can use, I'de be happy to pay for postage and whatever?
Engine problem solved!

The new used carb I received today was dirty and leaky, but the engine ran fine with it. I then took the best from each carb, meaning the new carb except the following from the Longchamp carb:
-throttle plate
-fuel bowls
-choke
-vacuum canister
-62 jets
-6.5 PV
Now it runs good, so the error must have been in what's not used anymore: the Longchamp metering block, main body or secondary metering plate, but I never found the error.
Well, it's 2 steps forward and at least 1 backwards Frowner

As mentioned it now idles fine, and I had it idling for ½ hour without problems today. But then I looked at the plugs, they were all black and dry.

So I started the engine again to adjust idle mixture screws. Nothing happened, I could turn the idle screws all the way in without any effect, I've never seen that before. So the carb must give fuel from somewhere else?

I changed the PV (still 6.5) even though the old one seemed OK, and traced the vacuum path from the PV to the bottom of the carb. And I made sure the secondary throttles close fully (bent the linkage and adjusted the screw from beneath). Same result, perfect idle, but black plugs and absolutely no effect of adjusting the idle screws.

I tried putting my finger on each of the 4 idle bleeds, each time the engine started to stumble. (By the way, there are 2 small holes beneath the secondary throttles, is there an entire idle system there, I thought it was only non vacuum carbs?)

Any suggestions???
Thanks
Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×