New Engine but which heads as want to keep 180 degree headers

The 4V means 4 venturi, ie: 4 barrel carb. You can modify these heads for use on a windsor but your headers will not work due to differing deck heights between windsors and clevelands.

Precision Proformance sells 180s for Windsor. Not sure of the quality, just passing on the info.

http://precisionproformance.com/ex1035.php

quote:

Originally posted by TCH911:
...
Ultimately I am looking for about 400bhp.

UK-based Pantera specialist says that a 351C in this configuration could never develop this power ...

You better find another specialist. 400hp is EASY in a Cleveland.

With basic bore and stroke, my 351C is at 500hp with stock iron heads.

quote:

Originally posted by TCH911: UK-based Pantera specialist says that a 351C in this configuration could never develop this power but I reallllllllly want to keep these headers or find a more affordable solution that custom built pipes.

This may be a statement about (UK) emissions ccompliance as opposed to power potential. I dont know what local restrictions you may have in this regard but an engine swap may be relevant to what standards will be applied to the car. If you havent already investigated this, it may be wise to do so prior to committing to your decision.

Best,
K

PrecisionProformance is the source of many of the US vendors headers. Hall's included. Quality is there.
500hp in a Cleveland is there for the asking from a 4v C.
The big port iron heads are a little tricky because of the low velocity so you have to package them right.
You need to remember the Dyno Don Nicolson according to him, was getting 750 to 800 hp out of the "stock" configuration, way back in Pro Stock drag racing.
It would be a little radical of an engine for the street but the point is that some of the concepts he did are still with us.
Hands across the water and all that, but what exactly does a Brit know about making this engine run or even it's concept? What race teams is he building his expert engines for in Europe?
The Aussies have developed the 2v to a pretty high science but if you are interested in a civil street engine their offerings can be esoteric.
It's all controversial and you will find combinations with the stock engine combinations that can run that shouldn't according to the new technology.
I personally don't think the original Ford engineers were as big a group of morons as some would suggest. Ford did know something about designing and building successful performance engines.
Bottom line, yes your iron head 4v has 500hp for the asking. That really was the idea of putting this engine in the Pantera to begin with.

Thank you all very much for the responses so far and don't worry, no offenses taken on behalf of the UK engine-building industry. The companies I am approaching are building very streetable V8 engines without boring and stroking so perhaps this is what they mean by 'maximums'. No fancy cams either!

For me, I thought it would be simple, but it has turned into a minefield. I have a Cleveland Q code engine and I want to get around 400 bhp out of it but I also don't want to end up shelling out for a brand new 180 degree manifold when ostensibly I don't think there is anything wrong with what I already have.

I inherited the car as a show pony, everything rebuilt except the engine as it lived in a static private collection. Before the engine threw its push rods, it was producing a very asthmatic and very reluctant 280 bhp and my specilaist says that the engine has been fitted with what he believes to be the incorrect heads which would fully explain the poor experience of driving it so far.

> I want to get around 400 bhp out of it

Do you mean 400 HP at the crankshaft or 400 HP at the rear wheels?

> I also don't want to end up shelling out for a brand new 180 degree
> manifold

If you have 4V Cleveland heads, then the headers should bolt up
to most the aftermarket 2V, 3V and 4V heads, including Edelbrock,
TFS, CHI and AFD. Intake manifolds will be different among the
different types of heads.

You need to find out which heads you really have first. Even the
least of the factory iron Cleveland heads will support 400 HP at
the crank without too much trouble.

Dan Jones

Dans questions and comments are mine as well.

4V headers will work with any 351C style head mounted on top of any 9.2" deck block.

Ford Racing, Dart & World Products all manufacture 9.2" deck height Windsor blocks, Trick Flow, Edelbrock, CHI, AFD and Scott Cook all sell heads compatible with those headers.

But 400 bhp at the crank is very easy to achieve with any Cleveland motor. You wouldn't need to consider any new castings.

400 bhp at the wheels is also possible, and if that's your goal we can discuss the choices.

So please clarify your goal.

We will help you through this, you're a member of the family.

Check out this thread as well: Will's New Motor

-G

quote:

I have a Cleveland Q code engine and I want to get around 400 bhp out of it ……was producing a very asthmatic and very reluctant 280 bhp and my specilaist says that the engine has been fitted with what he believes to be the incorrect heads which would fully explain the poor experience of driving it so far.

A 4V Cleveland head will not be the culprit of HP limitation. Quite the contrary. You really need to figure out what you have first, but if it’s a Q-Code, that would be a low compression 4V version with cast dished pistons, open chamber 4V heads, and a hydraulic cam with the cam events retarded 4 degrees. This is commonly referred to as a smog engine here in the US as the changes above were done to make it emissions compliant for the era. It also emasculated the venerable beast. SAE net horsepower was listed at 266 for the 1972 version, and 246 for the 1973 version. The easiest thing to do is buy an indexable timing chain ($50-60 or so), put the cam events back to straight up and optimize the carb and ignition advance for this condition. This might get you back in the 300 BHP range with this approach. Problem is you’re only going to get so far with low compression ratio. What’s high-test in the UK these days? Don’t know what emissions testing you are subject to. Do you?

quote:

Originally posted by TCH911: …….The companies I am approaching are building very streetable V8 engines without boring and stroking so perhaps this is what they mean by 'maximums'. No fancy cams either!...............but I also don't want to end up shelling out for a brand new 180 degree manifold when ostensibly I don't think there is anything wrong with what I already have.

Well, if you want performance, you’re going to have to be willing to change something. I’d say the most basic bang for the buck (or pound sterling in your case) is a cam, carb (depending upon what you have), if you have dished pistons and open chamber heads, you need to get your compression up a bit. Easiest thing to do is put a set of 4V closed chamber heads on it. At this point you can basically choose the cam to achieve between 400-500 BHP, and any shop that is telling you that 400HP is undoable is probably someone you don’t want to do business with as the low end of this range can be done by accident, unless, as I previously said, unless this is an emissions constrained engine. The stock intakes manifold (if that is what you are referring to), is already a 180 degree configuration and are pretty good performers. Only real reason to replace the stock intake manifold in this power range is to save weight with an alloy version. If you are referring to your exhaust manifolds (extractors on your side of the Atlantic), you shouldn’t have a problem selecting compatible heads; there are many both OE and aftermarket from which to choose). You already have a big advantage here in horsepower over a stock Pantera exhaust system because the stock Pantera exhaust cans are known to relieve you of 30-50HP depending upon your state of tune.

You may have to lobby your government to relax its emission standards.

Good luck,
Kelly

Thanks George, Thanks Dan.

Didn't go into too much detail as I hate to bore people to tears and then not have any answers to my thread.

ME - I am a complete newbie to Pantera's and V8 engines. Have a simple knowledge of what a cam/head/inlet/outlet manifold etc... is.

MY ENGINE - I bought the car from Bonhams auctioneers (Childhood passion to own a Pantera). Car had sat immaculate and un-run in a private collection for 25 years. Precious owner said he knew little but that engine had been built from performance parts. My race shop found the engine running very weakly. They swicthed to the correct carb and still only producing poor performance. My first drive was a very short one with the push rods coming loose inside the engine after just 15 miles.

MY AIM: I keep seeing figures being touted about of 350bhp for a GT5, is this WHP or FWHP? I thought I probably wanted a GT5+ but without finding myself with some cammy race machine that was undrivable and wore out the rest of my car.

Any help that you chaps can give is very gratefuly received as I am always lost when people talk of certain performance items and the measurements that they have...

A much appreciative newbie, Tom

TCH, one weak spot in any U.S V-8 is the harmonic balancer just behind the crankshaft pulley. The iron outer ring is pressed onto an inner ring with a strip of rubber between the two. As time goes by, the rubber shrinks, allowing the rings to shift position relative to each other. The problem comes from the ignition timing mark being part of the outer ring, so if the rings move AT ALL, the timing mark shifts. Then if a mechanic tries to adjust the ignition timing using that mark as a reference, it will be very wrong (usually retarded or late). Result: weak acceleration and hot running.
Correct ignition timing can be restored in a number of ways, all involving someone finding the true top dead center travel of #1 piston inside the block. A simpler but more expensive fix is to assume that any 40-year-old harmonic balancer will have slipped its position, and order a new one. All U.S parts vendors stock replacements (including PIM on this website) and they are not outrageously expensive.
There may be other issues with your engine, but getting the ignition timing correct is a first step.

Here is a Dyno graph of the last run of Pantera 4384 in third gear.

This engine is fairy mild & very streetable, real easy to drive.
Has a stock but internally balanced crank.
Flat top Probe pistons, 40 thou over.
Hydraulic roller Cam, mild grind, slight lumpy idle.
CHI alloy 4V heads with 11:1 compression.
Roller rockers.
8 x throttle body injection.
Runs on pump 98 octane fuel.

This Dyno run was not ideal; it was a 38 degree C day, (about 100 degrees F).
It’s an older Dyno that reads tractive effort instead of rear wheel torque, (column on the right).

So this car has around 315hp at the rear wheels, which at a guess I’d say around 400hp at the crank taking in the transmission losses.
(Maybe a little more power if the day wasn’t so hot)

This car accelerates amazingly, lights up the rear wheels in first, second & third gear when you floor it.
Throttle response is almost instant.
But yet a pussycat down low when you short shift through the gears.

Previously the engine had the stock iron 4V heads, Edelbrock torquer manifold & a 650 Holly, but the short block was the same spec.
Going to the high compression heads & the injection has really made the car come alive & is more responsive & snappier, much more bottom end grunt on tap.

That’s only a 400 horsepower engine.
And that’s the point; you don’t need a great deal of power to have a lot of fun & for your Pantera to constantly put a smile on your face.

Regards,
Tony.

Kelly,

Thank you, that is very insightful and much along the lines that George has mentioned to me in a private mail.

Am very keen to stick with the existing engine block for originality (These cars hold quite high values in the UK). Am I right in saying that the fundamental block is the same whatever the Pantera 351 Cleveland configuration? My car started off as an L in 1973.

As for UK emissions testing, there are very few limitations for a car of this age. Obviously it needs to be vaguely hospitable but nothing like Californian rulings.

Thanks,

Tom

Thank you for the Dyno Tony, that is exactly the sort of thing I like to see and hear about. I want the power to spin the wheels occasionally but don't want something undrivable (have you seen the condition of our UK roads!).

I think the Throttel body injection is perhaps a little hardcore although it does look stunning, any chance you could tell me a little more about these?

Excuse all the posts but that's what a slow Sunday after a week in India does to you. I have posted two more pictures in the gallery. One is of the push rods, one is of the top end as is. NB - Engine is currently a non-runner and sitting awaiting my commands in the UK (I am in Singapore with work for the medium term). Thanks everyone, you're slowly educating a newbie!!!!

Does anyone know a good article where I might learn about what Hydraulic roller, roller rockers etc are....

Many thanks, Tom

quote:

Originally posted by TCH911: .......... Am I right in saying that the fundamental block is the same whatever the Pantera 351 Cleveland configuration?

Some people will debate the nuances, but the short answer is they are all the same except some are 4-bolt versus 2-Bolt main caps. Though 4-bolt is more desirable in financial resale value, in a Cleveland and these power ranges, it doesn't mean much because the caps are identical and the additional bolts are diminutive and not splayed.

quote:

As for UK emissions testing, there are very few limitations for a car of this age. Obviously it needs to be vaguely hospitable but nothing like Californian rulings. Thanks,Tom

That's surprising but very good news for you and your build.

Best,
Kelly

Tom, the injection is an old used kit that I found on Ebay a couple of years ago.
Made by Pantera Performance in Colorado, Dennis Quella I think.
Basically a Cleveland Weber manifold with throttle bodies instead of Weber’s.
The kit came with short velocity stacks & large billet oval air cleaners that sat on top.
I didn’t want to hide the stacks under air cleaners so I made some new taller stacks with inbuilt mesh screens, just so it’s a bit more like that 60’, 70’s Can Am look.
The system gets rid of the Distributor & instead uses a small crank angle sensor & trigger wheel on the nose of the crank.
Had to notch the trunk lid a little to fit.
Installed a high pressure fuel pump fed by a gravity surge tank.
Coil packs & a reasonable amount of wiring.
Ignition is controlled by a Motec computer which can be set up on a laptop.
It is a lot of work to install.
But I do like playing with this car & making new stuff for it.
It’s an on-going experiment.

Regards,
Tony.

I've now added a dyno run of the previous engine to the gallery for UK GT5. You can see that it is seriously having problems on the upper side of its torque curve and power is way down on what I would like to see. Engine is now being stripped down for rebuild and I will start a thread for those that are interested to follow the build over the next two months.

TCH, are you acquainted with Roger Brotton in S.York, England? Or with Johnny Woods? Roger runs a DeTomaso shop while Johnny is a most amazing craftsman having rescued a wrecked and burned hulk, transforming it into a fast reliable show winner. He's currently applying his magic to a Mangusta. PM me for their phone #s if this is new info.

Thanks for the kind words Jack! Tony, your fuel injection looks amazing. I want to do that someday.

Tom, great looking GT5. You have found the best place for advise. This forum is populated with knowledgeable decent people.
Give me a call some time I would be happy to give you any advise I can. 0781 718 7333

Johnny

Thanks guys, very kind of you to respond. I have spoken with Roger Brotton, he has been very useful indeed. I have kept the car with Wren as the quality of their work is simply superb. They are intrusted with some of the UK's best Jaguars and Aston Martins for private and racing use. George (Cowboy from Hell) has very kindly offered me some excellent advice and I have also given Wren Roger Brotton's details as well. I am just about to start a specific engine build thread as the engine was stripped down today.

I have started a rebuild thread here:

Rebuild thread for UK GT5