It's a deal...but you gotta show me the 2x4 holley set-up?
Marlin,
" There is NO such thing as A High Pressure Pump!! Because the Pump Does NOT produce PRESSURE!"
If you install a heavier spring on the relief of the pump ... it sure does produce a higher pressure. Take each pump put it on a bench and spin them at the same rpm and see what you find ? We do this with a Triple Duty valve to create a load on a pump to get a higher head pressure. Same principle. So I guess my 26 years in the Mechanical Business have been all an illusion.
"High Pressure is Not as Important as the Flow!"
And here my friend is the problem ..351C have a flow problem .. 2 engines side by side one with a high volume pump and the other a high volume pump and heavier relief spring both have the same head pressure ( resistance ) raise the pressure on one and add light wieght oil ( heavy wieght oil puts undue stress on teh distributor gear) and you will be pumping more gpm thru the motor .. loose tolerances in a motor .. it works for me on the race track .. no spun bearings, no broken timing gears, and the motor last longer. You want to move oil thru the motor. The temperature will be less and again cause less stress on parts that are known to break.
Ron
" There is NO such thing as A High Pressure Pump!! Because the Pump Does NOT produce PRESSURE!"
If you install a heavier spring on the relief of the pump ... it sure does produce a higher pressure. Take each pump put it on a bench and spin them at the same rpm and see what you find ? We do this with a Triple Duty valve to create a load on a pump to get a higher head pressure. Same principle. So I guess my 26 years in the Mechanical Business have been all an illusion.
"High Pressure is Not as Important as the Flow!"
And here my friend is the problem ..351C have a flow problem .. 2 engines side by side one with a high volume pump and the other a high volume pump and heavier relief spring both have the same head pressure ( resistance ) raise the pressure on one and add light wieght oil ( heavy wieght oil puts undue stress on teh distributor gear) and you will be pumping more gpm thru the motor .. loose tolerances in a motor .. it works for me on the race track .. no spun bearings, no broken timing gears, and the motor last longer. You want to move oil thru the motor. The temperature will be less and again cause less stress on parts that are known to break.
Ron
Down under, where the 351 C is a very common engine, this does happen.
I have had it happen many times over the years. must admit not with the std dizzy.
Not many of em over here run the std dizzy.Points are so ... last week !
Never had issues with the proper 3/16 roll pin, but other comanies use smaller dia springs, which don't help !
I try to use wherever possible std pump with std pressure spring.
This last engine we did has a bit of extra clearance in the cam tunnel and runs 10 psi @ idle which is marginal but 50 psi @ 2000, so we are leaving it alone
I have had it happen many times over the years. must admit not with the std dizzy.
Not many of em over here run the std dizzy.Points are so ... last week !
Never had issues with the proper 3/16 roll pin, but other comanies use smaller dia springs, which don't help !
I try to use wherever possible std pump with std pressure spring.
This last engine we did has a bit of extra clearance in the cam tunnel and runs 10 psi @ idle which is marginal but 50 psi @ 2000, so we are leaving it alone
Wow. What a surprise. Seems like all the broken distributors are after market? Imagine that?
Didn't anyone hear me say...something along those lines? I think you guys just want to hear what you want to? No problem at all for me. I'm just trying to share what I know on the subject. I am not the expert on it.
DU. Points are a thing of the past here too. If you are going to replace that distributor my suggestion is to use the pointless Motorcraft unit with the separate brain.
It can be plugged into aftermarket CPU's painlessly if need be and if you need parts for it here you can get them at just about any part stores. I don't know about Australia though. Everything is kind of upside down there and all those Joeies jumping around and Dingos howling and the moon and all?
Fords replacement parts although not perfect by any means are still the best by far. Mallory and MSD should be deported as illegal immigrants in my opinion. None of there parts are made here.
Better yet, just load them into a cannon a shoot them back to where the came from. The stuff, although admittedly pretty, is crap. Don't want to listen, ok. Better carry a spare distributor with you in my opinion. Of course how you are going to do a distributor in a Pantera roadside is a pretty neat trick?
Didn't anyone hear me say...something along those lines? I think you guys just want to hear what you want to? No problem at all for me. I'm just trying to share what I know on the subject. I am not the expert on it.
DU. Points are a thing of the past here too. If you are going to replace that distributor my suggestion is to use the pointless Motorcraft unit with the separate brain.
It can be plugged into aftermarket CPU's painlessly if need be and if you need parts for it here you can get them at just about any part stores. I don't know about Australia though. Everything is kind of upside down there and all those Joeies jumping around and Dingos howling and the moon and all?
Fords replacement parts although not perfect by any means are still the best by far. Mallory and MSD should be deported as illegal immigrants in my opinion. None of there parts are made here.
Better yet, just load them into a cannon a shoot them back to where the came from. The stuff, although admittedly pretty, is crap. Don't want to listen, ok. Better carry a spare distributor with you in my opinion. Of course how you are going to do a distributor in a Pantera roadside is a pretty neat trick?
...Yes Cobra! Your 'Head' of Pressure was built-up From the Resistance to the Flow! GPM IS a Measurement of Flow. When You have NO Resistance at The OUTPUT of the Pump; and Put a Pressure Gauge at that Point, On the side, In Paralell to the Curcuit, Not Blocking, Causing Resistance! The gauge will Read Zero!! Because You won't be able to build up a 'Head' Of Pressure. Those are the facts!... And Perhaps You ARE suffering under an Illusion! I've Been in the Business Over 40 Years!!...
On the ever-recurring oil pressure subject, I'll add that very high pressures- however generated- can cause their own problems while not really curing anything. Specificaly, oil pressures in the engine over about 85 psi can cause lifter pumpup and valve float with hydrauilc cams (either flat tappet or hydraulic rollers) and also bearing erosion. In almost all non-drag race engines, a standard pump with std bearing clearances will give you 65-75 psi hot at 2500 rpms, and 15-20 psi hot at idle. No bigger pump is necessary unless you run oil coolers and remote oil filters on long undersized lines with lots of bends and fittings.
Note that you cannot get any meaningful info from a stock in-dash gauge, either. They are almost all inaccurate to the low side and there is no fix aside from complete replacement with a different brand. The problem is an inherent electrical mismatch between the Italian-made gaude and the U.S. made sender. I once borrowed 10 brand new stock senders from a vendor and ran them on our '72; I got 8 different pressures. And a mechanical gauge teed into the sender port gave a 9th reading- higher than all the electric gauge readings. As a rule of thumb with Clevelands, if you see REAL oil pressures below 5 psi at idle and below 30 psi at 2500 rpms hot, drive directly to the engine shop before you are forced to sweep up the guts of your engine off the street! A mechanical gauge added to the stock pickup on a 1/4-pipe tee will put your low-oil pressure fears to rest. Thomas Tornblom in Sweden did a comprehensive electrcal analysis on the oil gauge and its sender in the Sept 02 POCA News.
Note also that my cheap mechanical gauge is still teed in place on our engine after 16 years so its durability is also not an issue; the stock gauge I use as a 'warning light'. If I want to know real oil pressures (rarely), I open the decklid and look at the mechanical gauge. Finally, most of the thrown rods in wrecked 351-Cs I've seen are from the #1 and #2 cylinders- the two closest to the oil pump. So in my opinion, most so-called "flow problems" in a Cleveland aren't oil-flow related.
Note that you cannot get any meaningful info from a stock in-dash gauge, either. They are almost all inaccurate to the low side and there is no fix aside from complete replacement with a different brand. The problem is an inherent electrical mismatch between the Italian-made gaude and the U.S. made sender. I once borrowed 10 brand new stock senders from a vendor and ran them on our '72; I got 8 different pressures. And a mechanical gauge teed into the sender port gave a 9th reading- higher than all the electric gauge readings. As a rule of thumb with Clevelands, if you see REAL oil pressures below 5 psi at idle and below 30 psi at 2500 rpms hot, drive directly to the engine shop before you are forced to sweep up the guts of your engine off the street! A mechanical gauge added to the stock pickup on a 1/4-pipe tee will put your low-oil pressure fears to rest. Thomas Tornblom in Sweden did a comprehensive electrcal analysis on the oil gauge and its sender in the Sept 02 POCA News.
Note also that my cheap mechanical gauge is still teed in place on our engine after 16 years so its durability is also not an issue; the stock gauge I use as a 'warning light'. If I want to know real oil pressures (rarely), I open the decklid and look at the mechanical gauge. Finally, most of the thrown rods in wrecked 351-Cs I've seen are from the #1 and #2 cylinders- the two closest to the oil pump. So in my opinion, most so-called "flow problems" in a Cleveland aren't oil-flow related.
Sure there is a sender. That is a standard thing for Ford production cars. I believe that it comes on at under 10psi but it's a long time since I thought about it.
It threads into the oil system near the oil filter.
It threads into the oil system near the oil filter.
If you use the oem oil pump drive shaft the oem distributor gear roll pin works fine. The heavy duty, non-twisting oil pump drive shaft is what causes all the trouble.
The gearotor oil pump does not like to pass debris, the rotor tries to stall which puts strain on the oil pump drive shaft. The oem shaft twists to absorb that strain. The replacement heavy duty oil pump drive shafts don't twist, so it shears the little roll pin holding the gear on the shaft. That gear should be a very tight fit on the shaft even without the pin, if the gear fits the shaft loosely it will only make the tendency to shear the pin worse.
The purpose of the heavy duty oil pump drive shaft is to reduce "spark scatter" which occurs when the oem oil pump drive shaft twists. Ford guys running a heavy duty oil pump drive shaft used to install a small secondary roll pin inside the oem roll pin. The current practice today is to replace the oem roll pin with a spiral wound roll pin, the same type of pin used by MSD in it's distributors. But I guess you guys are saying those are the pins that are shearing. I've never heard that one before.
Doug mentioned that breaker points are old school, well in my opinion distributors are old school. Conversion to a Ford EDIS-8 is the current trend out amongst the Ford world. A crankshaft triggered distributorless ignition system (DIS) more precisely fires the ignition coils each and every revolution of the crankshaft, the ignition timing is more consistent from cylinder to cylinder, all of the timing functions are set electronically and operate perfectly forever, there is nothing mechanical to wear out or service. Unlike single coil distributor ignitions in which performance falls off at high RPM a DIS provides full spark energy at any real-world engine speed. With a DIS there is no spark scatter, no cross-firing and no misfiring.
On to the subject of the oil pump.
If the bearing clearances in a Cleveland are set properly (0.0025") the standard volume oil pump provides plenty of oil. I know drag racers turning the Cleveland to 9500 rpm with standard volume oil pumps even with 0.0035" bearing clearances. However, I think one could make a case to run the high volume oil pump when the clearances are opened up for high rpm drag racing. And running a high volume oil pump won't hurt anything, even if it isn't needed. However, the best Ford recommendation is to blueprint the standard volume pump, setting the rotor clearances at 0.002" to 0.003", and run the high pressure spring as recommended by Ford. Be sure to use an oil filter designed for higher pressure. Ford also installed an improved oil pump pick-up in the Boss 351, installed a baffle/windage tray in the oil pan and filled the pan with an extra quart of oil.
There are other considerations for building a Boss 351, 7200 rpm spec lubrication system. But that covers the oil pump.
The gearotor oil pump does not like to pass debris, the rotor tries to stall which puts strain on the oil pump drive shaft. The oem shaft twists to absorb that strain. The replacement heavy duty oil pump drive shafts don't twist, so it shears the little roll pin holding the gear on the shaft. That gear should be a very tight fit on the shaft even without the pin, if the gear fits the shaft loosely it will only make the tendency to shear the pin worse.
The purpose of the heavy duty oil pump drive shaft is to reduce "spark scatter" which occurs when the oem oil pump drive shaft twists. Ford guys running a heavy duty oil pump drive shaft used to install a small secondary roll pin inside the oem roll pin. The current practice today is to replace the oem roll pin with a spiral wound roll pin, the same type of pin used by MSD in it's distributors. But I guess you guys are saying those are the pins that are shearing. I've never heard that one before.
Doug mentioned that breaker points are old school, well in my opinion distributors are old school. Conversion to a Ford EDIS-8 is the current trend out amongst the Ford world. A crankshaft triggered distributorless ignition system (DIS) more precisely fires the ignition coils each and every revolution of the crankshaft, the ignition timing is more consistent from cylinder to cylinder, all of the timing functions are set electronically and operate perfectly forever, there is nothing mechanical to wear out or service. Unlike single coil distributor ignitions in which performance falls off at high RPM a DIS provides full spark energy at any real-world engine speed. With a DIS there is no spark scatter, no cross-firing and no misfiring.
On to the subject of the oil pump.
If the bearing clearances in a Cleveland are set properly (0.0025") the standard volume oil pump provides plenty of oil. I know drag racers turning the Cleveland to 9500 rpm with standard volume oil pumps even with 0.0035" bearing clearances. However, I think one could make a case to run the high volume oil pump when the clearances are opened up for high rpm drag racing. And running a high volume oil pump won't hurt anything, even if it isn't needed. However, the best Ford recommendation is to blueprint the standard volume pump, setting the rotor clearances at 0.002" to 0.003", and run the high pressure spring as recommended by Ford. Be sure to use an oil filter designed for higher pressure. Ford also installed an improved oil pump pick-up in the Boss 351, installed a baffle/windage tray in the oil pan and filled the pan with an extra quart of oil.
There are other considerations for building a Boss 351, 7200 rpm spec lubrication system. But that covers the oil pump.
I will respond in saying I agree with George "However, the best Ford recommendation is to blueprint the standard volume pump, setting the rotor clearances at 0.002" to 0.003", and run the high pressure spring as recommended by Ford."
WHY ? Because is you have a oil system with 1/4" oil passages and you put a guage to measure gpm at the end with all the leakage thru bearings clearances and lift bores ..at the end if you had 2 std pumps and one had a high pressure spring which one would read a greater gpm ? The higher pressure ...so in an engine with oil configeration issues where certain main bearings get oil first and others later ..which would be likely to provide an even flow of oil to the end mains ?
I hear the rest of the comments ..most issues are not even related to just the pump ... my experience with OIL ISSUES were mostly on a FE motor .. we restricted the rocker shafts, and opened up all the oil passages we could with long drill bits ... never spun a bearing @ 7200 rpm. Yes I agee there are other issues created ..there is always a trade off .. but not spun bearings and broken parts.
Take a peak at what our TUNER friends are doing. Lighter oil ! Higher pressures !
Ron
WHY ? Because is you have a oil system with 1/4" oil passages and you put a guage to measure gpm at the end with all the leakage thru bearings clearances and lift bores ..at the end if you had 2 std pumps and one had a high pressure spring which one would read a greater gpm ? The higher pressure ...so in an engine with oil configeration issues where certain main bearings get oil first and others later ..which would be likely to provide an even flow of oil to the end mains ?
I hear the rest of the comments ..most issues are not even related to just the pump ... my experience with OIL ISSUES were mostly on a FE motor .. we restricted the rocker shafts, and opened up all the oil passages we could with long drill bits ... never spun a bearing @ 7200 rpm. Yes I agee there are other issues created ..there is always a trade off .. but not spun bearings and broken parts.
Take a peak at what our TUNER friends are doing. Lighter oil ! Higher pressures !
Ron
Ron are you running the 5w-30 in the Cleveland of Windsor block?
Doug,
I run 5w -30 in all my cars and my Service Vans ... Synthetic of course ... change it every 3500 - 5000 miles .. I have ford triton v8's in service vans that are known to fail because of oiling issues ... and knock on wood they are in the 130k - 150k mile range. I will agree oil leaks are more common due to the light wieght oil and some say due to the composition of the synthetic motor oil lacks what conventional oil has ?
Ron
I run 5w -30 in all my cars and my Service Vans ... Synthetic of course ... change it every 3500 - 5000 miles .. I have ford triton v8's in service vans that are known to fail because of oiling issues ... and knock on wood they are in the 130k - 150k mile range. I will agree oil leaks are more common due to the light wieght oil and some say due to the composition of the synthetic motor oil lacks what conventional oil has ?
Ron
I guess at some point I need to just let it ride and go with it. It's been over two years since I have driven this car. I'm ready to get on w/it...
My two cents
I’m a fairly new owner approaching two years. When I test drove my car I noticed midway through the test drive that the oil pressure was parked at 30 psi on the gauge. The owner said that the motor had 1K miles on it and he seemed like a decent guy. The motors appearance backed up the owner’s statement. I got the car home and started driving. I noticed significant oil consumption which turned out to be a loose intake manifold. Gaskets were replaced and I was on my way. As I became more familiar with the car I noticed that the oil pressure would go down under acceleration. Humm, what to do? I verified the pressure with a mechanical gauge, 50 psi gong down the road dropping to approx 30 under acceleration. I took it to a shop and they dropped the pan. The gasket at the oil pump/block junction had blown out. The gasket was replaced, pan reinstalled and there was no change to the oil pressure! I made many phone calls and spoke to lots of competent helpful folks some on this forum (thanks guys). After replacing the oil pump twice (1 high volume and 1 std. both melling), replacing the main and rod bearings, inspecting the lifter valley for cracks there was still no change. My car was up on blocks for about 4 of the last 10 months. When it was drivable I had to baby it because I didn’t want to damage the motor as it is stuffed with many fairly rare and expensive parts that I couldn’t afford to replace.
The bottom line
I didn’t give in and kept searching for the problem my gut told me was there. The culprit turned out to be an external oil cooler that had been plumbed with a 5’ run of -8 hose both ways. A check valve had been installed to allow the accusump to pressurize the system during startup. Somewhere is this setup was an obstruction that I believe was causing the oil pump to cavitate. My oil pressure now lives between 75-80 psi. and does not drop under acceleration.
In the comments above it sounded like your frustrated. I know now that these cars can do that to you. For me I couldn’t feel comfortable driving my car unless I had confidence in the car. Hopefully my experience will help someone else down the road.
CB
My two cents
I’m a fairly new owner approaching two years. When I test drove my car I noticed midway through the test drive that the oil pressure was parked at 30 psi on the gauge. The owner said that the motor had 1K miles on it and he seemed like a decent guy. The motors appearance backed up the owner’s statement. I got the car home and started driving. I noticed significant oil consumption which turned out to be a loose intake manifold. Gaskets were replaced and I was on my way. As I became more familiar with the car I noticed that the oil pressure would go down under acceleration. Humm, what to do? I verified the pressure with a mechanical gauge, 50 psi gong down the road dropping to approx 30 under acceleration. I took it to a shop and they dropped the pan. The gasket at the oil pump/block junction had blown out. The gasket was replaced, pan reinstalled and there was no change to the oil pressure! I made many phone calls and spoke to lots of competent helpful folks some on this forum (thanks guys). After replacing the oil pump twice (1 high volume and 1 std. both melling), replacing the main and rod bearings, inspecting the lifter valley for cracks there was still no change. My car was up on blocks for about 4 of the last 10 months. When it was drivable I had to baby it because I didn’t want to damage the motor as it is stuffed with many fairly rare and expensive parts that I couldn’t afford to replace.
The bottom line
I didn’t give in and kept searching for the problem my gut told me was there. The culprit turned out to be an external oil cooler that had been plumbed with a 5’ run of -8 hose both ways. A check valve had been installed to allow the accusump to pressurize the system during startup. Somewhere is this setup was an obstruction that I believe was causing the oil pump to cavitate. My oil pressure now lives between 75-80 psi. and does not drop under acceleration.
In the comments above it sounded like your frustrated. I know now that these cars can do that to you. For me I couldn’t feel comfortable driving my car unless I had confidence in the car. Hopefully my experience will help someone else down the road.
CB
Thanks CB ... I am indeed frustrated. I have spent a butt load of money on this car and a few mistakes have been made. It has been the most difficult mechanical learning curve I have faced. I think/hope we are getting close now, I have replaced just about every system on the car. I hope to get a few years use out of it as I intend to drive it most days. My wife has a super hot rod which can't be driven every day so we intend to drive and enjoy the Pantera. I'm ready!! We are about to slip the engine back in it, I'm just all freaked out about the dist. gear, shearing off the pin, etc... As I mentioned, I'm just trying to proceed with care and make sure the engine and other systems are upgraded properly....
... I am indeed frustrated. I have spent a butt load of money on this car and a few mistakes have been made. It has been the most difficult mechanical learning curve I have faced. I think/hope we are getting close now, I have replaced just about every system on the car. I hope to get a few years use out of it as I intend to drive it most days. My wife has a super hot rod which can't be driven every day so we intend to drive and enjoy the Pantera. I'm ready!! We are about to slip the engine back in it, I'm just all freaked out about the dist. gear, shearing off the pin, etc... As I mentioned, I'm just trying to proceed with care and make sure the engine and other systems are upgraded properly....