Pantera #5900 - Real Group 4?

True GRP4 cars were much earlier than that #.

They had lightening holes in the inner rocker panel (not easily seen) and in the rear panel that sits above the tail lights (easily seen).

Some cars were later converted by the factory, but all in all, highly doubt this is a true factory GRP 4.

Larry

The GRP 4 numbers were around 2860 number.

Mike

5900 would likely correctly be a 1973 as most '74s are numbers above 6100. DeTomaso was well known for weird registration sequencing for a host of reasons.

As Larry and Mike have noted, the original Group 4 cars are typically numbered 23XX or 28XX. There may have been one or two outside that range (factory conversions or other), but I don't think 5900 would be an original Gr4 car. The price should be an indicator as well since original Group 4 cars would be priced at 2 to 4 times a "conversion".

Post some photos and details if you can.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Speedzone:
I am looking at a group 4 Pantera #5900. The research I have done says this is the first production model for 1974, but it is titled as a 1973, which I hear isn't uncommon due to Ford having not certified the early versions for 1974 emissions. How do I find out if this is a real group 4?

Simplest, most verifiable way is to look at the toe-box registration plate in the front trunk. 100% of the factory racing GR/GT-4s were "Type 874-A" while all street cars were 'Type 874'. The 'A' denotes a lightened, modified chassis that has never been successfully reproduced in clone-form.
Second way is to look up the serial number in Phillip Olszyk's "DeTomaso Macchine da Corsa"- the official racing history book which lists all GR-4, GT-4 and GR-3 racing machines (including those subsequently reworked by DeTomaso to GR-4 and GR-5 specs) ever built by the factory. #5900 is a converted street car built in Sept/Oct 1973; there are more of these clones around than the factory ever built. Some are well done but none have all the factory mods.

Thanks for the response everyone. I knew very little about "real" group 4 cars, and didnt realize so few were built. 5900 hundred is a very solid car, with an excellently done conversion. It is all there, but it is all apart, as well. Lots of new boxed up parts which includes a complete aftermarket performance brake system, as well as a fresh transaxle done by rbt with 3:73 gears, none of which has turned a wheel yet. The motor is new, as well, but has been sitting on its stand for 20 years now. It was built by a guy named Lance Nist, some of which you might have heard of. He is now out of business, which might have to do with his "suspect Reputation", or so some have told me. I know nothing of the guy. Nevertheless, it will be smart to at least open up the engine and check everything. What would you guess a car like this is worth as it sits? I am considering a first class build from my shop, and then a resale. Or perhaps a "made to order" car if someone is interested.

Btw, the last time the car was registered was 1988

pic 2

I would say $20,000 to $30,000 would not hurt you if the body is in great shape and it includes a good motor and transaxle. It may even be worth a little more than that. It sure looks good in the low resolution shots that are included -- if the car was always in southern California and has not been in the salt air, it has the fortune of possibly being a great car. The flares look well done as well. How is the front of the car, the lower valence? If this is not all smashed up it would be a piece of cake, at least body wise, to redo to a very nice standard without doing a lot of metal work.

Looks like a great candidate to me. The only other caveat I would say is, if it has been stored for so long, I would be a little afraid of corrosion on the inside of the transaxle. This would be an expensive repair -- something to look out for. Someone else on the board may have good advice on how to look for this problem than myself. What does the owner want for it?

Mark

I had an opportunity to spend a couple of days with 2860 and from what I could tell the modifications to the body and other parts are extensive. I think that the only way they could do most of it was before the body parts were welded together.

Mike

Chassis 5900 was 1974 job 1 (the first 1974 model). I have read this in a couple of different documents.

1974 California Panteras with 1973 registration is not unusual, its the norm!

I can explain the California situation. The US Federal Government did not change tail pipe emissions standards in 1974, they remained the same as the 1973 standards. BUT the state of California did change their standards, the NOx emission standard was lowered by 35%, and the 351C 4V with manual transmission did not comply with California's new standards. Ford responded to this by not offering the 351C 4V with manual transmission as an option in the state of California. However, the 351C 4V with manual ZF transmission was not optional in the Pantera ... it was standard, and there were no optional motors or transmissions. California was the largest market for the Pantera, rather than ban Panteras from their largest market Ford redocumented all Panteras destined for California as 1973 models (both the L model and the 40 GTS models). Easy enough to do as there were no visual changes between 1973 and 1974. There were no mechanical changes made to Panteras to sell them in California during 1974, they were just redocumented.