David,
Find posts from CT Pantera on this board. He drove from CT to FL where his dad did a nice job restoring his car.
Nevermind... here it is: http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...562/m/6750000725/p/1
Check out the pics link at the beginning of his post. At the end of the pics are some of his Dad's white car.
I met his dad in Palm Beach. He built a beautiful GT5-S in his garage - by himself! Sometimes modifying an existing car to meet your ideals is not only way cheaper but gives you a lot more car for your money.
As for the Pavesi Targa, Hall has a chassis kit to provide support so you can cut the roof. Like Purple Passion. I've seen it and it's a beautiful piece. And not very expensive.
When it comes to Panteras you can really find anything under the sun or you can build one to match your dreams.
But I think you need to read more and see more before you decide. You're in CA, so go visit Hall, Wilkinson, PI, and all the other vendors. Pick their brains.
You need to know all that can be done. Then develop an idea of what you really want from such a car, how you will use it and how long you think this love affair will last. Understanding that will have a major effect on what you do next.
Then determine what you can spend and figure out the best way to get what you really want.
quote:Originally posted by adoberetreat:
Being that there are only about 50 GT5-s in the USA, I don't get where you guys say there are plenty of these cars available. Yeah there are lots available in Europe, but I am scared to buy a car from Europe without even seeing it in person. And it would cost me thousands of dollars to fly to Europe to take a look. But I can fly anywhere in the USA to look at a car for just a few hundred dollars. So it seems to me my only chance to buy a GT5-s is from a small pool of guys (less than 50)who own these cars living in the USA.
********There are more cars in Europe than in the US, so if you really are looking for a factory GT5-S, you may not want to dismiss that option yet. You've got the Euro/dollar exchange rate going against you, but the dollar is at its strongest point in 7 or 8 years. The European DeTomaso community is quite small and many owners know each other and the cars. Depending on what country you are looking in, there are dependable people who will know the majority of the cars for sale.
Shipping from Europe to the US will be roughly $1000. A few years ago I shipped my old Pantera from NY to France for $750, and from France to California (to PIM) for $1000. Prices may have changed but it should give you an order of magnitude.
Registering a late-model Euro Pantera could be complicated on the other hand, and would require investigation. But if you find a Pantera for sale in Europe that you really like, I'd bet someone would be willing to look at it for you before you buy an airline ticket.
Denis- No I haven't contacted Peter Havlik. Actually I have no idea who this person is. If this gentleman named Peter has any leads on a GT5-s, I would appreciate if you could forward me his e-mail so I can contact him.
****Peter Havlik has a registry of only late-model Panteras. Links to his registry and contact info may be found here:
http://www.poca.com/index.php/cl/reg
He doesn't have a column regarding whether the car is currently for sale, but he may know of some off the top of his head.
David
The easiest and fastest way to find a Pantera, is to give the folks at PI Motorsports http://www.pim.net/ a call and let them know what you are looking for and let them find one for you. There are more buyers than sellers for Panteras right now and the folks at PI can help you speed up the process of finding the car you want.
Mike
Mike
David B - I looked at the link you sent. Very interesting. That sure is a good dad, and a talented dad. Also, thanks for telling me that Hall has a chassis kit to provide support so you can cut the roof and make a targa inexpensively. Purple Passion looks quite beautiful.
Charlie- Thanks for your suggestion for me to keep an open mind about not dismissing the Euro market. I will do that. I am scared about being able to register a late model Euro Pantera here in California. I plan to visit a AAA office and see if they have any suggestions or advice on registering a Euro Pantera.
Denis sent me a PM with Peter Havlik's e-mail. I sent him an e-mail but so far I have not heard back from him. Maybe he is very busy.
Pantera 1887 - I think you made a good suggestion for me to call P.I. Motorsports and see if they can rustle up a GT5-S. I'll do that.
So far I like the look of Michael's GT5 S the best. But I know that is going to be a longshot because he may or may not decide to sell. And if he does decide to sell he places a big premium for the car having a targa, which may knock me right out of the box. But I haven't given up yet. We'll see what happens.
David
Charlie- Thanks for your suggestion for me to keep an open mind about not dismissing the Euro market. I will do that. I am scared about being able to register a late model Euro Pantera here in California. I plan to visit a AAA office and see if they have any suggestions or advice on registering a Euro Pantera.
Denis sent me a PM with Peter Havlik's e-mail. I sent him an e-mail but so far I have not heard back from him. Maybe he is very busy.
Pantera 1887 - I think you made a good suggestion for me to call P.I. Motorsports and see if they can rustle up a GT5-S. I'll do that.
So far I like the look of Michael's GT5 S the best. But I know that is going to be a longshot because he may or may not decide to sell. And if he does decide to sell he places a big premium for the car having a targa, which may knock me right out of the box. But I haven't given up yet. We'll see what happens.
David
quote:so you can cut the roof and make a targa inexpensively
Peter Havlik has probably the most comprehensive registry of the 9000 series cars. Who owns them, where they are etc.
I think he is on vacation at the moment but I'm sure he will return your e-mail
Good luck with your search
Doug M
I think he is on vacation at the moment but I'm sure he will return your e-mail
Good luck with your search
Doug M
David,
Peter Havlik is quite the 9000 series enthusiast and does have a comprehensive compilation of info on these Panteras. He is a great guy and will get back to you.
Michael
Peter Havlik is quite the 9000 series enthusiast and does have a comprehensive compilation of info on these Panteras. He is a great guy and will get back to you.
Michael
David,
I personally feel that people who sell GT5 and GT5-S Panteras sell them for too little. How can you buy an updated Pantera for 60k, (that there are THOUSANDS of) but a rare model like a GT5 or GT5-S (less than 100 here?), even updated ones, for 65-75k? I just don't get it. IMHO, they should start at 80k. I'm not trying to price you, or anyone else out of the higher end models and make them unaffordable. Afterall, I can't change what the market will bear by myself, and I don't want to. Comparatively speaking, I just think they're under priced.
I place value on the fact that my Pantera IS a GT5-S, one with low miles that is in good shape. (It would be in better shape if I never drove it, but it wouldn't take much to 'top it off'.) I place more value on it because it is a Pavesi Targa, and I feel rightfully so (they ARE ultra rare, documented, factory conversions). I would not sell my Pantera for less than 100k. I'm not crazy, I'm just not trying to sell it. I wouldn't feel comfortable parting with it for less than that, so I wouldn't. For those who say, "With that attitude, he'll have it forever!" To them I say - Good for me!
David, you've come across as a decent guy, and I think you're already fitting right in with our community. I wholeheartedly encourage you to pursue your GT5-S. They are great cars, and you will not be disappointed. I look forward to your excited posts that you've got your Pantera and are showing it off for all of us to admire!
Michael
I personally feel that people who sell GT5 and GT5-S Panteras sell them for too little. How can you buy an updated Pantera for 60k, (that there are THOUSANDS of) but a rare model like a GT5 or GT5-S (less than 100 here?), even updated ones, for 65-75k? I just don't get it. IMHO, they should start at 80k. I'm not trying to price you, or anyone else out of the higher end models and make them unaffordable. Afterall, I can't change what the market will bear by myself, and I don't want to. Comparatively speaking, I just think they're under priced.
I place value on the fact that my Pantera IS a GT5-S, one with low miles that is in good shape. (It would be in better shape if I never drove it, but it wouldn't take much to 'top it off'.) I place more value on it because it is a Pavesi Targa, and I feel rightfully so (they ARE ultra rare, documented, factory conversions). I would not sell my Pantera for less than 100k. I'm not crazy, I'm just not trying to sell it. I wouldn't feel comfortable parting with it for less than that, so I wouldn't. For those who say, "With that attitude, he'll have it forever!" To them I say - Good for me!
David, you've come across as a decent guy, and I think you're already fitting right in with our community. I wholeheartedly encourage you to pursue your GT5-S. They are great cars, and you will not be disappointed. I look forward to your excited posts that you've got your Pantera and are showing it off for all of us to admire!
Michael
Michael,
I just happen to agree with you that it seems the GT5 and GT5 S Panteras sell for comparatively little. It doesn't make sense to me either. There were thousands of '71-74 Panteras yet there were only about 180 or so GT5 S Panteras ever built. Just because of the rarity I would have guessed these GT5 S cars would sell for much more. Also, the GT5 S Panteras had many improvements and upgrades compared to the '71-74 models. So I don't get it either. But then again I sort of do. It is the market place that determines the value of something.
Why is it a nice '68 Shelby Mustang sells for $250k yet a nice '71 Pantera might sell for 45k? Back in 1971 a Pantera cost three times more than a mustang, and more than twice as much as a Shelby. So what happened where the Shelby now commands so much money when the Pantera prices haven't kept pace? The answer is simple, if not bewildering and somewhat shocking. Supply and demand. Lots of people love Shelby's, thus demand surged and prices went way up.
Unfortunately for the Panteras, demand has been relatively comparatively low and thus Pantera sellers have been unsuccessful at fetching top notch prices like a Shelby or 426 Hemi Super Bee.
The GT5's and the GT5 S cars are very rare. But apparently demand is somewhat scant, keeping prices relatively low. I don't know why that is. But I have observed this phenomenon and that is the reason I thought I would try to find a Pantera GT5 S, because it seems you get more bang for your buck.
A few years ago I went to PI Motorsports in Orange Ca. They had a Black Group 4 tribute for sale with a fresh 427 hammer. Jerry Sackett told me the owner put over 150k into that car AFTER he had bought it. That car was a show car and a real beauty. I tried to buy that car for 75k. I got out bid. Someone bid 80k and it was sold. Dave Adler told me that 80k was the highest amount ever paid for a Pantera from his shop.
Michael, your car may very well be worth 100k. You guys can correct me if I'm wrong, if Michael sells his car for 100k that might be the highest price ever paid for a Pantera, not counting a real Grp4 or something like that. I believe there have been a couple of guys asking lots of money for their cars, such as the owner of the Blue Bomber was asking offers above 250k. And I read somewhere that Does200 wants 160k for his show cars. But to my knowledge so far no takers.
Anyway, I'm scared to be the guy who is just a rookie without much knowledge tip toeing into the Pantera community, and ending up paying the most ever in all of recorded history for a Pantera.
So I'll try to calm down and lower my sights a bit, and take more time. Michael, your GT5 S targa is so awesome and rare that if any Pantera could possibly fetch 100k, it just might be yours.
Thanks you guys for welcoming me to the Pantera community. I feel like a welcomed outsider. I can't wait till I actually own a Pantera so I can feel like a real member of your fraternity.
David
I just happen to agree with you that it seems the GT5 and GT5 S Panteras sell for comparatively little. It doesn't make sense to me either. There were thousands of '71-74 Panteras yet there were only about 180 or so GT5 S Panteras ever built. Just because of the rarity I would have guessed these GT5 S cars would sell for much more. Also, the GT5 S Panteras had many improvements and upgrades compared to the '71-74 models. So I don't get it either. But then again I sort of do. It is the market place that determines the value of something.
Why is it a nice '68 Shelby Mustang sells for $250k yet a nice '71 Pantera might sell for 45k? Back in 1971 a Pantera cost three times more than a mustang, and more than twice as much as a Shelby. So what happened where the Shelby now commands so much money when the Pantera prices haven't kept pace? The answer is simple, if not bewildering and somewhat shocking. Supply and demand. Lots of people love Shelby's, thus demand surged and prices went way up.
Unfortunately for the Panteras, demand has been relatively comparatively low and thus Pantera sellers have been unsuccessful at fetching top notch prices like a Shelby or 426 Hemi Super Bee.
The GT5's and the GT5 S cars are very rare. But apparently demand is somewhat scant, keeping prices relatively low. I don't know why that is. But I have observed this phenomenon and that is the reason I thought I would try to find a Pantera GT5 S, because it seems you get more bang for your buck.
A few years ago I went to PI Motorsports in Orange Ca. They had a Black Group 4 tribute for sale with a fresh 427 hammer. Jerry Sackett told me the owner put over 150k into that car AFTER he had bought it. That car was a show car and a real beauty. I tried to buy that car for 75k. I got out bid. Someone bid 80k and it was sold. Dave Adler told me that 80k was the highest amount ever paid for a Pantera from his shop.
Michael, your car may very well be worth 100k. You guys can correct me if I'm wrong, if Michael sells his car for 100k that might be the highest price ever paid for a Pantera, not counting a real Grp4 or something like that. I believe there have been a couple of guys asking lots of money for their cars, such as the owner of the Blue Bomber was asking offers above 250k. And I read somewhere that Does200 wants 160k for his show cars. But to my knowledge so far no takers.
Anyway, I'm scared to be the guy who is just a rookie without much knowledge tip toeing into the Pantera community, and ending up paying the most ever in all of recorded history for a Pantera.
So I'll try to calm down and lower my sights a bit, and take more time. Michael, your GT5 S targa is so awesome and rare that if any Pantera could possibly fetch 100k, it just might be yours.
Thanks you guys for welcoming me to the Pantera community. I feel like a welcomed outsider. I can't wait till I actually own a Pantera so I can feel like a real member of your fraternity.
David
It's been said that Elvis' Pantera went for $1M, so anything in the six figure range will not be a record AFAIK 
Oh, and at the Barret Jackson auction in 2008, there's a Pantera that has re-designed bumpers and tail-lights by Tom Tjaarda that went for $100k (plus 10% buyers commission, so that's 110K for a '73 car) - so that should make you feel pretty good about paying 6-figures for the car you really want! Note - I don't advocate using auction prices as any sort of indicator of what real world pricing should be, just trying to set your mind at ease that you won't necessarily be the guy that pays the most for a Pantera.
Tjaarda Car At Barrett-Jackson in '08
Oh, and at the Barret Jackson auction in 2008, there's a Pantera that has re-designed bumpers and tail-lights by Tom Tjaarda that went for $100k (plus 10% buyers commission, so that's 110K for a '73 car) - so that should make you feel pretty good about paying 6-figures for the car you really want! Note - I don't advocate using auction prices as any sort of indicator of what real world pricing should be, just trying to set your mind at ease that you won't necessarily be the guy that pays the most for a Pantera.
Tjaarda Car At Barrett-Jackson in '08
Michael's car is worth well over $100k. It's starting price should be $150k. It's the real deal. One of a just a handful of an original supercar.
What PI was referring to re the $80k top price, was the selling price of a "customized" car. There is no "collector" value and no "pedigree" for a typical '72 Pantera turned into a Group4 or GT5.
Every Pantera owner who can afford to do what he desires will spend money getting his car as close as financially feasible to his personal opinion of what perfection is. That could be stock, L, late model, GT4, GT5, GT5S or anything else. But that has nothing to do with cars, value or selling price.
$80k for that Black car from PI was a real deal. A very nice car. I saw it in Monterey. But such cars are not everyone's taste. I would have preferred to have bought someone else's work rather than spend twice as much doing it myself. Then again, I wouldn't know every nut and bolt as I do now.
Which is why I suggested originally that you really need to figure out why you want a Pantera and how you will use it. The options, usually fall somewhere along these lines:
1 - You will smile every time you walk by it in the garage. Dust it now and again. And take it around the block every month or to the odd event within a few miles from home.
2 - Polish it, get decent tires, safety check key components, change the fluids regularly and drive it on nice, dry, sunny, cool Sundays when there isn't much traffic - about 10 times a year.
3 - Meet other Pantera owners and find out what improvements to make first. Learn the vendors and where to get parts, then make the necessary reliability mods. Without fear of breakdowns you can now enjoy driving it more often each season.
4 - Decide that this is the only car for you and plan to make it a lifetime project. As you can afford the time and money to do so, over the years you improve it from front to back or usually from back to front. Along the way drive the living shit out of it every chance you get. You also appreciate it's true Grand Touring sports car abilities and relish heading out on extended road trips, looking for Fcars, Lambos and other such Euro trash to leave in the dust and make their owners feel like the wimps they are. (Ok, that's just my personality coming out...)
Does 200 has cars that are also first class - works of art. Also worth well over the $100k asking price.
If I had a million I'd buy Michael's car, a couple of Jan's cars and Lazlo's black car. Then I'd buy a rough '74 and build the killer cat I always wanted.
What PI was referring to re the $80k top price, was the selling price of a "customized" car. There is no "collector" value and no "pedigree" for a typical '72 Pantera turned into a Group4 or GT5.
Every Pantera owner who can afford to do what he desires will spend money getting his car as close as financially feasible to his personal opinion of what perfection is. That could be stock, L, late model, GT4, GT5, GT5S or anything else. But that has nothing to do with cars, value or selling price.
$80k for that Black car from PI was a real deal. A very nice car. I saw it in Monterey. But such cars are not everyone's taste. I would have preferred to have bought someone else's work rather than spend twice as much doing it myself. Then again, I wouldn't know every nut and bolt as I do now.
Which is why I suggested originally that you really need to figure out why you want a Pantera and how you will use it. The options, usually fall somewhere along these lines:
1 - You will smile every time you walk by it in the garage. Dust it now and again. And take it around the block every month or to the odd event within a few miles from home.
2 - Polish it, get decent tires, safety check key components, change the fluids regularly and drive it on nice, dry, sunny, cool Sundays when there isn't much traffic - about 10 times a year.
3 - Meet other Pantera owners and find out what improvements to make first. Learn the vendors and where to get parts, then make the necessary reliability mods. Without fear of breakdowns you can now enjoy driving it more often each season.
4 - Decide that this is the only car for you and plan to make it a lifetime project. As you can afford the time and money to do so, over the years you improve it from front to back or usually from back to front. Along the way drive the living shit out of it every chance you get. You also appreciate it's true Grand Touring sports car abilities and relish heading out on extended road trips, looking for Fcars, Lambos and other such Euro trash to leave in the dust and make their owners feel like the wimps they are. (Ok, that's just my personality coming out...)
Does 200 has cars that are also first class - works of art. Also worth well over the $100k asking price.
If I had a million I'd buy Michael's car, a couple of Jan's cars and Lazlo's black car. Then I'd buy a rough '74 and build the killer cat I always wanted.
quote:Originally posted by adoberetreat:
Michael,
I just happen to agree with you that it seems the GT5 and GT5 S Panteras sell for comparatively little. It doesn't make sense to me either. There were thousands of '71-74 Panteras yet there were only about 180 or so GT5 S Panteras ever built. Just because of the rarity I would have guessed these GT5 S cars would sell for much more.
David
A GM executive many, many years ago said, "styling sells cars".
I would suspect the look of the GT5 S is not everybody's cup of tea-most people must prefer the original look?
David B,
When Dave Adler told me that the black Grp4 with the 427 hammer that sold for 80k was the highest price ever paid for a Pantera at his company, he was not referring only to customized Pantera's. He specifically said he never recalled ANY Pantera at his shop selling for more than 80k in the entire time he has owned P.I. Motorsports.
I appreciate your thoughts that you believe Michael's Pantera is worth more than 150k. But you were a little early to say that. You were supposed to say that AFTER I buy Michael's car, not now! Your last post probably cost me another 50k. Thanks for sharing bro.
Kidding aside, when Michael bought his targa in 2003, we were going through one of the biggest boom economies in memory. Real estate prices were soaring. Credit was readily available, unemployment was low, business's were doing great. It seemed everyone had money because either they had high salaries, or they were taking out equity loans on their homes that had skyrocketed in value, using the money to buy boats, fancy cars, vacation homes, etc.
Fast forward 7 yrs to 2010. We are in the throngs of the second biggest collapse capitalism has ever seen. The entire banking system would have collapsed without the government stepping in with bailout money. Huge corporations going bankrupt everywhere you look. AIG Insurance would have collapsed save for another govt bailout. Unemployment is high. Jobs are scarce. Credit is tight. Our economy is so bad America single handedly brought down the entire world economy. Now virtually every country in the world is doing badly economically. With money tight, everything today is worth less than it was in 2003. Remember, In 2003 during the biggest boom economy in memory, Michael's car was still a targa back then and Michael paid nowhere near 150k for it then.
So now our economy is in the tank, credit is tight, jobs are scarce, real estate values are way down and we are suffering through the worst economy in American history since 1929, and yet in the midst of this crisis and global economic meltdown Michael's car somewhow skyrocketed to be worth 150k, just when I want to buy it? It doesn't make sense. Although I swear that would serve as a nice metaphor for the story of my life.
David B, I do agree with you in spirit. It seems like these GT5 and GT5-S cars should command lots and lots of money. After all, they were virtually built by hand. They were considered world class super cars at the time I believe. I don't know why some cars like the Shelby's and some other muscle cars are worth a ton of money yet the Pantera lags, especially the GT5 and GT5S? Someone here posted that maybe not that many people like the styling of the GT5 and GT5-S. I don't know. They look like nicely styled cars to me. But it is interesting and befuddling to me that the classic original narrow body Pantera's seem to command prices very close to the GT5 and GT5-Ss. It just doesn't make sense. But I guess it shows that most people still like the old narrow body classic styled Pantera's. Those narrow body Pantera's of the early '70s were styled way ahead of their time, and they still look great, so maybe it does make sense.
David
When Dave Adler told me that the black Grp4 with the 427 hammer that sold for 80k was the highest price ever paid for a Pantera at his company, he was not referring only to customized Pantera's. He specifically said he never recalled ANY Pantera at his shop selling for more than 80k in the entire time he has owned P.I. Motorsports.
I appreciate your thoughts that you believe Michael's Pantera is worth more than 150k. But you were a little early to say that. You were supposed to say that AFTER I buy Michael's car, not now! Your last post probably cost me another 50k. Thanks for sharing bro.
Kidding aside, when Michael bought his targa in 2003, we were going through one of the biggest boom economies in memory. Real estate prices were soaring. Credit was readily available, unemployment was low, business's were doing great. It seemed everyone had money because either they had high salaries, or they were taking out equity loans on their homes that had skyrocketed in value, using the money to buy boats, fancy cars, vacation homes, etc.
Fast forward 7 yrs to 2010. We are in the throngs of the second biggest collapse capitalism has ever seen. The entire banking system would have collapsed without the government stepping in with bailout money. Huge corporations going bankrupt everywhere you look. AIG Insurance would have collapsed save for another govt bailout. Unemployment is high. Jobs are scarce. Credit is tight. Our economy is so bad America single handedly brought down the entire world economy. Now virtually every country in the world is doing badly economically. With money tight, everything today is worth less than it was in 2003. Remember, In 2003 during the biggest boom economy in memory, Michael's car was still a targa back then and Michael paid nowhere near 150k for it then.
So now our economy is in the tank, credit is tight, jobs are scarce, real estate values are way down and we are suffering through the worst economy in American history since 1929, and yet in the midst of this crisis and global economic meltdown Michael's car somewhow skyrocketed to be worth 150k, just when I want to buy it? It doesn't make sense. Although I swear that would serve as a nice metaphor for the story of my life.
David B, I do agree with you in spirit. It seems like these GT5 and GT5-S cars should command lots and lots of money. After all, they were virtually built by hand. They were considered world class super cars at the time I believe. I don't know why some cars like the Shelby's and some other muscle cars are worth a ton of money yet the Pantera lags, especially the GT5 and GT5S? Someone here posted that maybe not that many people like the styling of the GT5 and GT5-S. I don't know. They look like nicely styled cars to me. But it is interesting and befuddling to me that the classic original narrow body Pantera's seem to command prices very close to the GT5 and GT5-Ss. It just doesn't make sense. But I guess it shows that most people still like the old narrow body classic styled Pantera's. Those narrow body Pantera's of the early '70s were styled way ahead of their time, and they still look great, so maybe it does make sense.
David
I'm not sure you can look at other car sales to put a price on the targa GT5-S.
There is only one in the US. Assuming Michael was really interested in selling it, then the price would depend on what he is willing to take and what the buyer is willing to pay. There aren't enough similar cars to really establish a trend, although you could establish what a "normal" GT5-S is selling for or what a Ford-era Pantera is selling for, to see if the price differential is worth it to you.
I suppose it is sort of like the Factory Group 4 cars. There is only one sold every couple of years. The so-called Andy Warhol car sold for roughly $50,000 about 10 years ago, and 4 times that amount 5 years later. Nobody was really looking for a group 4 racecar when it was up for sale 10 years ago. a few years later, there was a buyer looking specifically for such a car, and the seller was looking to sell.
With tiny markets, weird things can happen to prices. If someone is looking to sell and there are no buyers, the car can be practically given away. Or if there are 2 or 3 buyers all looking at the same car, and there is no second similar car on the market, the price can be driven up substantially.
There is only one in the US. Assuming Michael was really interested in selling it, then the price would depend on what he is willing to take and what the buyer is willing to pay. There aren't enough similar cars to really establish a trend, although you could establish what a "normal" GT5-S is selling for or what a Ford-era Pantera is selling for, to see if the price differential is worth it to you.
I suppose it is sort of like the Factory Group 4 cars. There is only one sold every couple of years. The so-called Andy Warhol car sold for roughly $50,000 about 10 years ago, and 4 times that amount 5 years later. Nobody was really looking for a group 4 racecar when it was up for sale 10 years ago. a few years later, there was a buyer looking specifically for such a car, and the seller was looking to sell.
With tiny markets, weird things can happen to prices. If someone is looking to sell and there are no buyers, the car can be practically given away. Or if there are 2 or 3 buyers all looking at the same car, and there is no second similar car on the market, the price can be driven up substantially.
David,
You will see from reading previous posts on the topic of Pantera values that there is no shortage of opinions.
In MY opinion, two of the most significant reasons that Panteras don't have the "collectible" value of other low-production exotics are:
1) They were originally presented as a "cheap" alternative to the thoroughbred exotics of the day. Other American powered cars have reached very high values (Iso Griffo, Monteverdi, Bizzarrini) but they were always presented as high-end, exclusive cars and thus are "blue chip" investments.
2) Pantera owners (even those with very rare GT5, GT5-S and Pushbutton cars) feel quite comfortable customizing and modifying their cars from stock to create their "perfect" vision of a Pantera. Just look at the values of a customized Ferrari or Shelby GT350 (or any other "blue chip" car) and you will GENERALLY see a dramatic reduction in value for "resto-mods" compared to a completely original stock or "survivor" car. Yes, there are ALWAYS a few exceptions (the 300 SL Gullwing with the new Mercedes driveline is a perfect example), but these exceptions are rare.
I think that it is unlikely that MOST Panteras will ever be "blue chip" cars for these two reasons. And that is fine with me because I didn't buy mine as investment. If, however, you DO wish to buy one as an investment, then you should ONLY consider a COMPLETELY stock, original car. I suspect there are less than a hundred or so Panteras worldwide that can claim that status. Ironically, the "100 mile" white '74 Pantera isn't one of them because the current owner/seller has made some minor "updates" that have rendered it "destroyed" to some in the serious collector community. Of course, many changes can be reversed, but as is so often said "they are only original once".
Good luck with your search David. Don't worry, ownership isn't a requirement of acceptance into our community, but it will be more fun for you when you do finally have "your" cat.
Mark
You will see from reading previous posts on the topic of Pantera values that there is no shortage of opinions.
In MY opinion, two of the most significant reasons that Panteras don't have the "collectible" value of other low-production exotics are:
1) They were originally presented as a "cheap" alternative to the thoroughbred exotics of the day. Other American powered cars have reached very high values (Iso Griffo, Monteverdi, Bizzarrini) but they were always presented as high-end, exclusive cars and thus are "blue chip" investments.
2) Pantera owners (even those with very rare GT5, GT5-S and Pushbutton cars) feel quite comfortable customizing and modifying their cars from stock to create their "perfect" vision of a Pantera. Just look at the values of a customized Ferrari or Shelby GT350 (or any other "blue chip" car) and you will GENERALLY see a dramatic reduction in value for "resto-mods" compared to a completely original stock or "survivor" car. Yes, there are ALWAYS a few exceptions (the 300 SL Gullwing with the new Mercedes driveline is a perfect example), but these exceptions are rare.
I think that it is unlikely that MOST Panteras will ever be "blue chip" cars for these two reasons. And that is fine with me because I didn't buy mine as investment. If, however, you DO wish to buy one as an investment, then you should ONLY consider a COMPLETELY stock, original car. I suspect there are less than a hundred or so Panteras worldwide that can claim that status. Ironically, the "100 mile" white '74 Pantera isn't one of them because the current owner/seller has made some minor "updates" that have rendered it "destroyed" to some in the serious collector community. Of course, many changes can be reversed, but as is so often said "they are only original once".
Good luck with your search David. Don't worry, ownership isn't a requirement of acceptance into our community, but it will be more fun for you when you do finally have "your" cat.
Mark
David,
I still don't know what kind of owner you want to be... 1, 2, 3, or 4?
I still don't know what kind of owner you want to be... 1, 2, 3, or 4?
Mark Charlton, you wrote such a great post. I completely agree with you the two reasons you stated why Panteras are not likely to ever become blue chip investments. Somehow over the years, Panteras have become a platform as a restomod for enthusiasts who love to tinker and enhance their car, with little or no regard for originality. People buy their Pantera, then they start making cosmetic and mechanical changes to the car in their perceived artistic image of beauty. That's ok, but in the process the bloodline has been permanently marred as being considered as a classic and prized asset.
The general public would be horrified to see someone use their artistic expression and cut a hole in the hood of a '67 Shelby to make custom air vents. Anyone who did that to an original Shelby should probably go to jail. But Pantera owners often do these types of things, then show their Pantera friends a pic of their car, from whom they usually get rave compliments and reviews.
If there was such thing as a Pevasi targa Shelby, and if only about 5 such Pevasi Shelby's were ever produced, such a car might command over half a million dollars or more. But we aren't talking about a Pevasi Shelby. We are talking about a Pevasi Pantera. And Panteras simply have not commanded big money under almost any circumstances, because the larger market doesn't think of Panteras in the same light as a Shelby or other low production car likely to go up in value. And I don't mean any disrespect to the marque or to Michael's car, because I love Michael's car. But the fact is that Michael's car was a targa each time it changed hands over the years, and it never commanded unusually higher money then, so I will be surprised if all of the sudden it will now.
Charlie McCall-- I also agree with everything you said. The Pantera is in such a tiny market. If several people are looking for a Pantera of a certain color or look all at the same time, the price could potentially be driven up. Conversely, if there aren't many buyers because of the economy or whatever, the car might have to be almost given away if the seller really wants to sell.
Panteras are good looking cars. They are fun, but they are not blue chip investments. Its been about 40 yrs since these cars came out. If they were going to go way up in value like the Shelbys and other low production cars, IMO it would have already happened.
Basically Panteras seemed to be bought and sold amongst the Pantera enthusiasts, which relatively speaking is a small group. And as a result this makes for stablized prices give or take. The larger public seems to be unaware of what a Pantera even is. So probably owning a Pantera will never be a big money winner. But that's ok. Because most people buy a Pantera for the love of the breed, and for their enjoyment, and to own a car that is unique and different. Most Pantera owners know going in that a Pantera is not a blue chip investment.
When I find my Pantera, I won't even be thinking of it as an investment to be making lots of money when I eventually sell. But I will be conscious of the price I pay when I buy a Pantera. Because I don't want to lose a ton of money when I eventually sell.
David
The general public would be horrified to see someone use their artistic expression and cut a hole in the hood of a '67 Shelby to make custom air vents. Anyone who did that to an original Shelby should probably go to jail. But Pantera owners often do these types of things, then show their Pantera friends a pic of their car, from whom they usually get rave compliments and reviews.
If there was such thing as a Pevasi targa Shelby, and if only about 5 such Pevasi Shelby's were ever produced, such a car might command over half a million dollars or more. But we aren't talking about a Pevasi Shelby. We are talking about a Pevasi Pantera. And Panteras simply have not commanded big money under almost any circumstances, because the larger market doesn't think of Panteras in the same light as a Shelby or other low production car likely to go up in value. And I don't mean any disrespect to the marque or to Michael's car, because I love Michael's car. But the fact is that Michael's car was a targa each time it changed hands over the years, and it never commanded unusually higher money then, so I will be surprised if all of the sudden it will now.
Charlie McCall-- I also agree with everything you said. The Pantera is in such a tiny market. If several people are looking for a Pantera of a certain color or look all at the same time, the price could potentially be driven up. Conversely, if there aren't many buyers because of the economy or whatever, the car might have to be almost given away if the seller really wants to sell.
Panteras are good looking cars. They are fun, but they are not blue chip investments. Its been about 40 yrs since these cars came out. If they were going to go way up in value like the Shelbys and other low production cars, IMO it would have already happened.
Basically Panteras seemed to be bought and sold amongst the Pantera enthusiasts, which relatively speaking is a small group. And as a result this makes for stablized prices give or take. The larger public seems to be unaware of what a Pantera even is. So probably owning a Pantera will never be a big money winner. But that's ok. Because most people buy a Pantera for the love of the breed, and for their enjoyment, and to own a car that is unique and different. Most Pantera owners know going in that a Pantera is not a blue chip investment.
When I find my Pantera, I won't even be thinking of it as an investment to be making lots of money when I eventually sell. But I will be conscious of the price I pay when I buy a Pantera. Because I don't want to lose a ton of money when I eventually sell.
David
Since Panteras are supposed to be featured in the new Fast and Furious movie, perhaps there will be more public awareness forthcoming.
quote:Originally posted by four walling:
Since Panteras are supposed to be featured in the new Fast and Furious movie, perhaps there will be more public awareness forthcoming.
Wait...what?
The real reason Panteras will never be worth anything is there was aa satanic rock group of the same name. It has forever tainted our hollowed marque with imagery of profain idol worship. We are lucky if we can give our cars away after someone does a google on Pantera.
quote:Originally posted by RobertVegas:quote:Originally posted by four walling:
Since Panteras are supposed to be featured in the new Fast and Furious movie, perhaps there will be more public awareness forthcoming.
Wait...what?
I picked up the info here. Look at the topics that have "sacrificial Panteras" as the subject.
http://list.realbig.com/piperm...l/subject.html#start
...and maybe a trailer is coming soon?
http://fast-and-furious-5-movi...fast-five-movie.html
David B,
To answer your question, the type of Pantera owner I plan to be would be a combination of what you said in #2,#3, and #4 in your post.
My future Pantera will always be garaged when I'm not driving it and never driven on rainy days. I plan to drive the car 5000 miles or more per year. I hope to find a Pantera that has already been substantially upgraded mechanically for reliability. My dream Pantera would be a GT5-S that has been built to sound loud and mean so when I drive off my neighbors windows would rattle. (I say a little harmless mischief is a good thing.)
A couple of years back I went to P.I. Motorsports to look at black Grp4 tribute with a 427 hammer engine. They fired the car up for me. Wow that car sounded absolutely ferocious, it was almost frightening. It would be great to find a GT5-S with a 427 hammer or something like that. But if not, I'll buy the nicest car I can find and possibly upgrade the motor eventually. Dave Adler told me although the 427 hammer engine pushes 600 hp, the engine is quite tractable and can be street driven no problem.
My goal would be to be the best caretaker of a Pantera that I could possbily be. Eventually when I sell, I want the future owner to enjoy the car as much as I did.
David
To answer your question, the type of Pantera owner I plan to be would be a combination of what you said in #2,#3, and #4 in your post.
My future Pantera will always be garaged when I'm not driving it and never driven on rainy days. I plan to drive the car 5000 miles or more per year. I hope to find a Pantera that has already been substantially upgraded mechanically for reliability. My dream Pantera would be a GT5-S that has been built to sound loud and mean so when I drive off my neighbors windows would rattle. (I say a little harmless mischief is a good thing.)
A couple of years back I went to P.I. Motorsports to look at black Grp4 tribute with a 427 hammer engine. They fired the car up for me. Wow that car sounded absolutely ferocious, it was almost frightening. It would be great to find a GT5-S with a 427 hammer or something like that. But if not, I'll buy the nicest car I can find and possibly upgrade the motor eventually. Dave Adler told me although the 427 hammer engine pushes 600 hp, the engine is quite tractable and can be street driven no problem.
My goal would be to be the best caretaker of a Pantera that I could possbily be. Eventually when I sell, I want the future owner to enjoy the car as much as I did.
David
More food for thought regarding your monster motor... (I'm bored and stuck in an airport...)
Panteras sometimes get a bad rap for being unreliable. The stock 351C is an extremely reliable engine in its original, factory format. People aren't content with 300hp, and begin experimenting. And that's where things start to go awry.
The Ford factory built millions of motors with parts that were engineered to go together, with extensive testing. YOur local speed shop may have built a hundred, max, with the same configuration. You are forging your own path and you have to know that.
I'm convinced that a lot of engine problems come from people who didn't select parts that play well together, or didn't optimize the overall system, or they strayed too far from the main path. The performed a certain amount of experimentation, and some experiments turn out well and some don't.
Talk to owners of the 427 hammer before buying it, and talk to owners of any speed shop before spending your money there. There are lots of reliable, high output motors out there. There are also some sad stories.
When I had my motor rebuilt, I had Dan Jones specify every component, and I'm thrilled. Seek out someone you trust and let them tell you what you should and should not aim for.
I guess my point is that a stock, 300hp engine is going to be dead reliable. The further you stray from stock configuration, the more likely you could have problems if you aren't careful. (this isn't a warning away from radical engines, just make sure you know what you are getting into)
Let's see... where's the bar in here?
Panteras sometimes get a bad rap for being unreliable. The stock 351C is an extremely reliable engine in its original, factory format. People aren't content with 300hp, and begin experimenting. And that's where things start to go awry.
The Ford factory built millions of motors with parts that were engineered to go together, with extensive testing. YOur local speed shop may have built a hundred, max, with the same configuration. You are forging your own path and you have to know that.
I'm convinced that a lot of engine problems come from people who didn't select parts that play well together, or didn't optimize the overall system, or they strayed too far from the main path. The performed a certain amount of experimentation, and some experiments turn out well and some don't.
Talk to owners of the 427 hammer before buying it, and talk to owners of any speed shop before spending your money there. There are lots of reliable, high output motors out there. There are also some sad stories.
When I had my motor rebuilt, I had Dan Jones specify every component, and I'm thrilled. Seek out someone you trust and let them tell you what you should and should not aim for.
I guess my point is that a stock, 300hp engine is going to be dead reliable. The further you stray from stock configuration, the more likely you could have problems if you aren't careful. (this isn't a warning away from radical engines, just make sure you know what you are getting into)
Let's see... where's the bar in here?
I don't want to contradict anyone, but after much review of the options, I went ahead with a stroker rebuild. That was 10 years ago.
In the 10 years since, I have added lot of 20/50 Mobil 1, but all I've replaced was a carb power valve, spark plugs and plug wires. That's it - over 10 years!
And I drive my car everywhere. 522 HP, 510 ft lbs of torque and I put the hammer down wherever and whenever. I take this beast downtown in traffic and on 1000 mi road trips. It has never overheated. Never failed to start. Never broke down. Absolutely bulletproof (...looking for some wood to knock on).
The 351 block is what makes a Pantera. Just find a reputable builder. Have others verify the specs of the planned build. There's lots of info and qualified experts here.
BTW, all my specs are detailed on my website below.
In the 10 years since, I have added lot of 20/50 Mobil 1, but all I've replaced was a carb power valve, spark plugs and plug wires. That's it - over 10 years!
And I drive my car everywhere. 522 HP, 510 ft lbs of torque and I put the hammer down wherever and whenever. I take this beast downtown in traffic and on 1000 mi road trips. It has never overheated. Never failed to start. Never broke down. Absolutely bulletproof (...looking for some wood to knock on).
The 351 block is what makes a Pantera. Just find a reputable builder. Have others verify the specs of the planned build. There's lots of info and qualified experts here.
BTW, all my specs are detailed on my website below.
When the time comes to rebuild my engine, I will probably go with a stroker as well, and will search out those that are happy with their engines to shamelessly copy what they have done. I've heard that you are happy, David, so when that day comes (hopefully in the rather distant future!) I may come looking to see what you've done.
I guess that over the years we've all heard "The Pantera isn't reliable", and when we investigate a little bit we find that the owner strayed far from the original formula, didn't do his homework, and his experiment was less than satisfactory.
I guess that over the years we've all heard "The Pantera isn't reliable", and when we investigate a little bit we find that the owner strayed far from the original formula, didn't do his homework, and his experiment was less than satisfactory.
By the way - wandering around somewhat aimlessly from subject to subject, another data point for what a Pavesi targa may be worth...
Here's a picture from 1998 or 1999 of me sitting in Roland Jaekel's Pavesi convesion GTS. It was for sale back then for $30,000 USD. The engine was nothing special and smoked a little, if I remember correctly, but the engine is the least of the issues... the car itself was rust-free and was one of the 14 (14? 8? I forget) targas built.
I was sorely tempted as I thought it was priced low based on the rarity of the targas. I also thought it would be cool to have a targa Pantera, but I was already beginning to think of buying a GT5-S, so I passed.
Roland later bought the last set of factory GT5-S panels and converted it to a 5-S because he couldn't find any takers at the time despite a rather attractive price.
Last year Roland had a rather high speed crash with it and I don't know its whereabouts, or if the car was scrapped.
Here's a picture from 1998 or 1999 of me sitting in Roland Jaekel's Pavesi convesion GTS. It was for sale back then for $30,000 USD. The engine was nothing special and smoked a little, if I remember correctly, but the engine is the least of the issues... the car itself was rust-free and was one of the 14 (14? 8? I forget) targas built.
I was sorely tempted as I thought it was priced low based on the rarity of the targas. I also thought it would be cool to have a targa Pantera, but I was already beginning to think of buying a GT5-S, so I passed.
Roland later bought the last set of factory GT5-S panels and converted it to a 5-S because he couldn't find any takers at the time despite a rather attractive price.
Last year Roland had a rather high speed crash with it and I don't know its whereabouts, or if the car was scrapped.
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quote:Originally posted by Charlie McCall:
Last year Roland had a rather high speed crash with it and I don't know its whereabouts, or if the car was scrapped.
I thought Roland sold that car a couple of years ago and bought an Si?
That car was originally a '75 GTS and was used by Pavesi as the prototype for the targa conversion.
Michael
No, as far as I know he never had an Si.
His GT5-S conversion had an SI spoiler thingie at the base of the windshield so perhaps that's what you are thinking of?
He now has a Guara, although I don't remember if he bought it before or after crashing the targa, but the targa was apparently rather comprehensively destroyed. :-(
His GT5-S conversion had an SI spoiler thingie at the base of the windshield so perhaps that's what you are thinking of?
He now has a Guara, although I don't remember if he bought it before or after crashing the targa, but the targa was apparently rather comprehensively destroyed. :-(
Charlie,
Are there any pictures of it crashed?
(I am truly saddened by this news.)
Michael
Are there any pictures of it crashed?
(I am truly saddened by this news.)
Michael
Michael -
I don't believe there are any photos. At least I've never seen any.
What I think I remember is that the passengers were ok, but the car was not. I imagine we'll see Roland in 6 weeks time at Le Mans Classic and I'll ask him.
It's funny - I only know of 2 Pavesi targas - yours and his, so I don't know what ever happened to the rest.
I also know of (and have photos of) 2 Pantera SI targas, although I don't know if Pavesi converted those cars as well.
One belongs to Franz Krump, and the other has a total of 20km on the odometer (or something like that), and still has the plastic on the doors!!
I wonder where the other cars are?
I don't believe there are any photos. At least I've never seen any.
What I think I remember is that the passengers were ok, but the car was not. I imagine we'll see Roland in 6 weeks time at Le Mans Classic and I'll ask him.
It's funny - I only know of 2 Pavesi targas - yours and his, so I don't know what ever happened to the rest.
I also know of (and have photos of) 2 Pantera SI targas, although I don't know if Pavesi converted those cars as well.
One belongs to Franz Krump, and the other has a total of 20km on the odometer (or something like that), and still has the plastic on the doors!!
I wonder where the other cars are?