Pantera #7206 - GTS

Welcome to the forum, whatever you name is....

First off, ANY stock or correctly modified Pantera, if well maintained, can easily handle 5,000 miles per year.

Second, IMHO, when you say you don't know much about Panteras, I get a uneasy feeling in my gut.

These are a very easy car to buy incorrectly. If you do not learn how to properly inspect a Pantera, or have the help of someone so skilled to help you evaluate your potential purchase, well... I wish you luck.

PIM is a well known and respected vendor. That said, they are selling that car on consignment and their goal is a sale. Sort of like buying a house. Buyer beware. PIM will not lie to you, but they may not educate you as to any shortcomings the car may have, either.

From the description and photos it appears to be a substantially stock car save for the engine rebuild, radiator, Wilwoods (just calipers, or rotors, too?) wheels, and some appearance upgrades. What there is seems to be pretty common for the course.

You may find a suspension in need of all new bushings. Cooling tubes may need replacing, or not. All rubber hoses might need replacing, or not. And there may be rust.

At $60,000 it is over priced, IMHO. You should have some bargaining room; the seller has probably instructed PIM with a bottom price. PIM wants it to sell for as much as possible. They probably are not in a hurry as they do sell a large number of cars and they know this one will sell in due time.

There were about 150 USA GTS cars. They were nothing out of the ordinary mechanically, but had some appearance changes.

This car is lacking the original GTS steering wheel. It is lacking the original Campys and the GTS center emblems. It has an upgraded interior. Point being, any special 'value' it has as a GTS has been compromised.

Being in LA, you are surrounded by POCA chapters and owners. My advice to you would be to hook up with some of them and learn more before making your purchase. The POCA website has all the chapters listed.

Also, a GREAT opportunity awaits you this June 2-6 in Reno. The POCA Fun Rally, our annual gathering. Sort of like a crash course in learning about Panteras. Go to www.poca.com and find the details. Anyone can attend, you do not need to be a member, though I'd advise you to join.

People buying a Pantera often fall prey to The Fever. The cars are hypnotizing, and once you start looking at them, you want yours NOW. Relax, get to learn about the various flavors they come in, what can and should be done to them, and what shouldn't.

Adopt the attitude each day brings you closer to YOUR car. Generally, when you find it, it will speak to you. Sounds corny, but others know what I mean is often true.

Keep asking questions. That is the best thing to do before, and after, buying a Pantera.

Larry

Could not have said it any better myself, Larry. Caveat emptor rules the day; along with all the other stuff Larry said. Great advise that a lot of us followed, and those that did not wish they did......

Best of luck on finding YOUR car.

Mark

Thank you guys for your replies. I am trying to educate myself as much as possible about Pantera's before I make my purchase. I already learned some things from Larry's reply, such as this GTS is lacking the original emblems, wheels and maybe a few other things that somewhat compromise its value as a GTS. I plan to go to the Reno Fun Rally. Maybe there will be some Pantera's for sale over there, plus I can ask questions and try to learn more about these cars. I'd rather pay a little more and get a Pantera that has been thoroughly gone through and updated. It seems you get a better deal buying a Pantera that has already had substantial upgrades. It appears you can put a ton of money into these cars updating everything, and you don't seem to recoup all that you have put into these cars when you sell. I went to a Pantera Fun Rally a few years ago in Las Vegas because back then I wanted to own a Pantera. But my friends told me Pantera's are from the past, they have old antiquated technology, museum pieces but not cars to drive. My friends said only guys that love to work on their own cars as a hobby buy Pantera's. They sapped the energy out of me and I gave up my search for a Pantera. But my passion has been brewing now for some time to own a Pantera, and this time I won't be deterred. I don't care what my friends say, I plan to own a Pantera. Thanks guys for your advice. And as it happens, I believe I have met you Larry at the Fun Rally in Vegas a few years ago. I believe you own a silver color very sharp looking Pantera. We spoke for a short time after I came up to admire your car. I plan to go to the Reno Fun Rally. If I see you there I will re-introduce myself and say hello.

David

Hi David,

quote:

I believe I have met you Larry at the Fun Rally in Vegas a few years ago.

An exceptionally handsome and charming man with a silver/gray ponytail? Yup, that was me.

quote:

But my passion has been brewing now for some time to own a Pantera

Ah, a low grade Fever.

Yes, buying one upgraded with your preferred choices will save you a ton of money, and time, and perhaps aggravation.

The problem with Panteras is you wind up wanting to improve the breed. But there are many owners who have a car they enjoy, resist that urge, and enjoy what they have.

Since you've done Vegas, you know what to expect from Reno. Not too many cars for sale usually, but ask around, drop your interest and hook up with folks who can feed you information on cars they know, or find, are for sale.

See you in Reno!

Larry

quote:

An exceptionally handsome and charming man with a silver/gray ponytail? Yup, that was me.

Man I knew Chicago was called the windy city, but now we'll have to add Fresno the city with a strong breeze

David, All kidding aside. The friendship here is strong. Guys here will give honest and stritforward directions. There are no dumb questions on this board so don't hesitate to ask, even if it been asked before someone will answer or direct to a previous thread with the answer.
Denis

quote:

Buyer beware. PIM will not lie to you, but they may not educate you as to any shortcomings the car may have, either.

PIM will tell you what the 'owner/seller' told them about the car. PIM does not inspect the cars they have on consignment and make no warranty or claim as to their condition, the presence of rust or not, etc. That was my experience when I looked at a car they had for sale a few years ago. You may be able to pay them to do a pre-purchase inspection on a particular car - check with them.

Larry's feedback is good. Learn all you can. I drove my Pantera about 7,000 miles/year without issue, until I spun a rod bearing - I'm in the middle of an engine rebuild now.

Here are some additional resources:
http://www.banzairunnerpantera.com/how_to_buy.htm

Larry's advice is right on, but I would take issue with one thing.

We all agree that you are better off financially buying a car that has all the features you want as opposed to doing it yourself. You rarely recover the money you've spent... I would only differ in that Larry says that you inevitably WANT to start modifying things. I'd argue that this is only true if a) you didn't buy the car that you really wanted because perhaps you didn't know what you wanted at the time or b) You just can't help tweaking things.

It is certainly permitted to change anything you wish, something that is frowned upon in other marques. And there are some neat things out there that can tempt you, but there are plenty of owners who leave their cars as-is and are prefectly happy.

As far as what your friends tell you about the reliability (or lack thereof) of the Pantera, how many have first-hand experience? On this forum you'll hear from hundreds of owners who have travelled thousands of trouble-free miles, and wouldn't think twice about hopping in their car and driving 1000 miles. True, few owners do that and most only take their cars out on sunny Sundays, but that is the owner's problem, not the car's problem!

The vast majority of Panteras provide years of reliable transportation, perhaps due to the lack of sophistication that your friends scorn. There isn't much to go wrong with the stock formula. If you start messing with the formula, adding electronic do-dads, EFI, computers, sensors, you introduce more failure modes.

Every year I take at least one long distance road trip, literally thousands of kilometers from my home typically to the other side of Europe and don't think twice about it.

Don't listen to the naysayers - drive a handful of cars, decide what you really want and be patient. It really is a quite special car with oodles of personality and entertainment for years.

Thanks for everyone's input. I want to find a Pantera that looks close to show quality, but also capable of getting on the track at the Pantera events and being able to hold up and perform well. I want to find a Pantera that has a stronger than stock hp engine, that has had suspension upgrades, brake upgrades, upgraded electrical, updated A/C, dropped floor pans would be nice(I'm 6 ft 2 3/4), and upgraded interior. And from my research it seems the Pantera GT5-S has done all that right from the factory! Not only that, but the Pantera GT5-S IMHO is the best looking of all the Panteras. Charlie, I noticed that you own a Pantera GT5-S. It seems almost all of the GT5-S's are in Europe, as is yours. I live in Los Angeles. I briefly talked to a guy living in Florida who just sold his GT5-S. He said these cars are hard to drive, hard to work on, hard to find parts for, hard to insure, and don't even think of getting a GT5-S in a car accident because the body was hand molded and it would cost a fortune to repair. If I bought a GT5-S I want to be able to drive the car 5k miles per year or so. The guy who just sold his GT5-S in Florida put less than 200 miles on the car in 10 yrs! Charlie, do you drive your GT5-S? Is it hard to drive and hard to find parts for and hard to work on and hard to insure? If any of you guys out there have any opinions I'm listening.

Thanks,

David

Sounds like the best thing the Florida owner did was sell his GT5S!

Wide body Panteras are renowned for tracking the road due to the width of the rubber and wheel offset to the outside of spindle center. That said there are equally well known fixes to improve caster. My GT5 was transformed when I modified my caster, literally like night and day.

There was recently one 5S with a Fontana motor up for sale, which appeared a very well updated example. The 5S's are generally priced $65-75K for average examples, although in this economy fire sales do come up. Just hang in there and stick to your guns on what you want.

Julian

quote:

He said these cars are hard to drive, hard to work on, hard to find parts for, hard to insure, and don't even think of getting a GT5-S in a car accident because the body was hand molded and it would cost a fortune to repair.

One word, "IGNORANCE!"

The cars are a joy to drive! Imagine muscle car acceleration (but better!), go-kart handling, and true GT highway cruising capability. My Pantera never ceases to amaze me. When I bought my Pantera, I found it was so much fun to drive that I drove it to work EVERY DAY the sun shone for 2-1/2 years.

The cars are easy to work on too! Have you ever changed plugs on a Ford or Chevy from the 60's? That's how hard it is to work on a Pantera. Yeah, maybe you can't do it all leaning over a fender - you might have to reach a couple plugs from the underside, but it's not hard at all! And we regularly have tech sessions where owners get together and wrench on each other's cars together. If you're uncomfortable tackling a project/repair yourself, you're surrounded with folks who've done it before and will show you how and help!

Hard to find parts for??? Let me ask you, who sponsors this board? PIM. They sell parts. So does Quella, Wilkenson, Precision ProFormance, Hall, PPC, Graham, Pat Mical, and others! Just check out the plethora of Pantera parts on ebay any day of the week. They're out there. Actually, we have surprisingly excellent parts availability; and that's just for the Pantera-specific parts! Engine related mechanical bits can all be purchased from your local Kragen/Checker/Shucks, Napa, Autozone, or any auto parts store.

As for insurance; piece of cake! I purchased my car and walked right into my SoCal AAA office and insured my car. They even handled the DMV paperwork for me so I didn't have to stand in line at the DMV. Interestingly, it cost LESS to insure my Pantera than it cost to insure my 89 Mustang GT because it's a somewhat rare collector car and there aren't a bunch of 18-22 year olds filling actuarial tables with accident statistics every month. Granted, that was a 'stated value' policy, and AAA wasn't willing to raise the insured amount later when the car appreciated, but it was EASY! Then I called Hagerty. Completed their application online and in a matter of minutes had 'Agreed Value' coverage (what you need for a Pantera) with no hassles, and cost a lot less than AAA. And most Pantera owners don't plan on getting into accidents - not a habit we want. But, sometimes idiots force us into that situation. That's what the insurance is for. And with an 'agreed value' policy, you're covered. Your car gets fixed (unless you total it), no issues! Just be sure to adequately insure your car.

A fellow club member had an accident. The car was insured for $60,000 and his repair estimate was in excess of $50,000. Initially, Hagerty wanted to 'total' the car because they're concerned the repair will run higher than the agreed value of the vehicle, but as my friend put it, his car properly repaired for a cost of $50,000+ would be a much better car than he could possibly buy for the $60,000 he would have received from the insurance company. His car was properly repaired and is now insured for $100,000, and it warrants it!

So, the Pantera is easy and fun to drive, easy and inexpensive to work on, parts are readily available, and it's easy and inexpensive to insure. Take the plunge. You won't regret it if you do your homework and buy the right car for you.

David,

I have an '86 GT5-S. Hagerty insured it without batting an eyelash and the premium is about $800 a year. Next year when the car is 25 years old, it will fall into the 'Antique' category and will cost less than half that to insure. If you get into an accident, let your insurance company worry about how it's going to get fixed. Metal shaping craftsmen can duplicate any body part!

To me, it is a dream to drive! The car handles like it's on rails. It can stop so suddenly, and without drama that I would worry about being rearended in the event I had to stop that car 'NOW'. The ride quality is superb. It takes bumps with grace. You would need to adjust the front alignment specs (David B -GT5- knows how) to eliminate the front tires from randomly jerking left or right when the front tires are moved more outboard (with aftermarket wheels). I drove it to Ontario and back (about 1000 miles roundtrip) in Sep. '08. I can sum it up by saying it was a very comfortable drive.

Pictures don't do the GT5-S (or any Pantera, really) justice! The low-width, and flow of the flares lulls you into staring at it endlessly. It is truly striking in person. I have a hard time walking away from it. Just looking at it makes me happy!

I don't drive mine as much as I'd like to because I have two young kids (7 & 5) that I like to spend all of my time with. It's a shame, because I really enjoy my time behind the wheel. I'm gonna drive it more this year, I swear!

Registering a 5-S in CA might be an issue due to emissions, but it's been done. Guys there would be better able to help you clear that hurdle. Parts are out there, but some 5-S specific parts may be harder to find.

I had a '74 before this one, and the '86 feels more refined. Keep in mind that this is just my experience, your mileage may vary.

Michael

[quote]Charlie, do you drive your GT5-S?
Does Charlie drive his 5S???? BAWAHAHAHAHa
I'll let him answer that one.
The guy who told you they were hard to drive and hard to insure and........is a tool. He was probably 85 yrs old and didn't have access to the internet.
These are older cars. They will require work and maintenance. Once they are sorted out, they will provide many miles of trouble free driving. If you don't want to own an older exotic, you can always buy a Vette or Viper and be 1 of 50 others at the car shows.
Will

David, People will tell you many things, do your homework for everyone who says it can't be done you'll find as many who say you can. Now that 5s might be your dream car and you may come across one (heck I found a Goose after 6 months of research - and a little luck).

You desire a car with all the upgrades (again you might be lucky) if not remember a lot of the fun is the journey, not the destination. In 10 years, no 2 years time you can tell the naysayers: I changed the control arms, I picked those wheels, I instaled this or that.( again see David B he's been there) Go and see any/all Panteras for sale within resonable distance from home or work, better spend a few hundred in gas than over pay for the wrong car you bought on evilBay or some mag. And who knows you may find a non-5S car out there. You shouldn't buy a 600HP car 1st time around, you need to tame it and courting other Panteras is OK, get those owner's opinions.

Denis

quote:

Go and see any/all Panteras for sale within reasonable distance from home or work, better spend a few hundred in gas than over pay for the wrong car you bought on evilBay or some mag.

When I was searching, I checked out the local cars for sale, made a trip to PIM in Orange to view their offerings (actually had an offer on one of their cars), flew to Vegas to look at cars, made a trip to Phoenix to look at a 71, and had airline tickets booked/reserved for Seattle and Ohio to look at two more contenders before I found mine. A few hundred dollars (or even a grand) in gas or airline tickets is cheap compared to the cost of buying the wrong car that needs LOTS of work. As for evilbay, most auctions require a $200-$500 deposit. View the car BEFORE paying for it!!! If you show up to inspect/pickup a car you bought (deposit only) through ebay and it turns out to not be as described (read: rust-bucket), you can just as easily walk away! The lost deposit is nothing compared to the cost of correcting a rotting car. Always inspect a car before buying!

Check out as many cars as you can, even if they're not exactly what you're looking for! Look at them, drive them, inspect them! You will learn a lot! You will develop a sense of what's acceptable to you and what's not. AND, you will then KNOW the right car when you do find it.

You guys are very inspiring. You've convinced me that there is no reason why I can't own a Pantera GT5-S. I don't want a converted '72 Pantera that has been turned into a GT5-S. I want the real thing.

I read somewhere that there are less than 50 GT5-S's in the entire USA. Probably 40 of those 50 GT5-S's are sitting in a bunch of rich guys car collections and just sit there looking pretty but never driven. Maybe only 10 or less of the 50 GT5-S in the USA are even driven. So I don't understand how and why parts would be readily available for a GT5-S for only about 10 cars in the entire USA? It doesn't make sense economically. But if you guys say all the parts for a GT5-S are readily available who am I to argue, after all you guys are the experts. All I can think of is that maybe the GT5-S uses almost all the same parts as the '71-'74 Panteras, thus the availability. I don't know.

I hope these Pantera GT5-S can pass smog emissions here in California.

Anyway, I appreciate all of your guys advice. One common element that I think all of you Pantera owners have is a "Can Do" attitude, a persistence, and lots of resilience. It's easy to just go out and buy a brand new Dodge Viper right from the dealership. However, it takes some effort, some persistence, and a mindset that is off the beaten path from the mainstream to go out and seek an old Italian exotic. You have to be able to go through some hurdles and obstacles, and put forth some extra effort. You guys show your resiliency and your "Can do" attitude in your posts. An impressive bunch of guys here it seems to me. Additionally, your willingness to offer advice to utter strangers...you guys are quite a special group.

Lastly, Cyboman aka Michael, thanks for including a photo of your GT5-S. It is breathtaking. The color, the decals, no wing (IMO the GT5-S looks better without the wing.) It is a magnificent beauty. I absolutely love your car. Just wondering....would you consider selling it? Interested buyer here.

Thanks,

David

quote:

I hope these Pantera GT5-S can pass smog emissions here in California.

This is a real concern for you. I suggest you contact Kirk Evans. He is the man who did the legal importing of about 50 GT5-S cars into the USA during the late 80's - Amerisport - kre@adelphia.net

quote:

the GT5-S looks better without the wing

My feelings exactly.

Larry

Larry,

Thanks for the e-mail address of Kirk Evan of Amerisport. I just sent him an e-mail asking him if the GT5-S can pass smog emmissions here in California. I'm awaiting his reply.

David

David,

Thanks for the kind words about my Pantera! Clearly, I share your feelings for it. My particular Pantera is not a regular GT5-S, it is one of about 6 or so Pavesi Targa GT5-Ss. DeTomaso offered a targa top as a factory option, but it's astronomical cost (50+% of the price of the car) prevented all but the few that were made from being produced. Carrozzeria Pavesi (one of Italy's premier coach builders) did the targa top conversion for the deTomaso factory while the body was in 'white' (just a shell). When completed, they were sent back to the deTomaso factory assembly line for finishing. My 5-S is the only known Pavesi Targa in the U.S. In my estimation, it is worth considerably more than regular 5-S.

Driving it with the roof off IS having your cake and eating it too! It totally transforms the feeling of the car from having the roof on top of your head to the sky being the limit. I can see all the other drivers around me when at an intersection or on the highway. The wind in my hair is awesome too! (Well, it was when I had hair.) I had a '74 Pantera that I had no intentions of parting with, but having had a taste of a 'topless' Pantera, there was no turning back for me!

Michael

Michael,

Your GT5-S just keeps getting better looking every time you send another photo. Your car looks great from any angle. I have never heard of a Pavesi GT5-Ss targa. That must be so cool to know you are driving the only Targa GT5-Ss in the entire country!

I don't know what smog emission laws they have where you live in CT, but since you are driving it obviously you got it to pass emissions. I contacted Kirk Evans via e-mail who owned Amerisport back in the '80's and asked him if a GT5-S could pass smog here in California. Kirk Evans said yes they can pass smog if they still have the contols on them (whatever he means by "Controls" I have no idea, but the "Yes" part I understood.)

Knowing that your car is a Pavesi GT5-Ss, worth considerably more than a normal GT5-S, I may not be able to afford your car. But you never know. Have you ever thought about possibly selling your car? I figure it doesn't hurt to ask.

David

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
...it is one of about 6 or so Pavesi Targa GT5-Ss.

David,

My Pantera is still a GT5-S, I used GT5-Ss to denote plural.

I've flirted with the idea of selling it recently because I'm 42 with two young children (7 & 5) that I spend all of my time with. My Pantera is my dream car, but experiencing my children's youth is infinitely more important to me. Being that it's only a 2 seater means it stays home much more than I would like it to. I sometimes fear it may be MANY years before I can enjoy it the way I'd like to. The question runs through my mind: Is it worth keeping if I only drive it 2-3 times a year for the next 10-15 years?

Michael

Michael,

I'm going to PM you.

David

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Is it worth keeping if I only drive it 2-3 times a year for the next 10-15 years?

Yes.

Mark

David,
I don't really have much to add that hasn't already been said. Do I drive my car? As much as I can. At least once a year I take a "road trip" that typically is 5000km or more, taking me a reeeeeal long way from home and to countries where I don't speak a word of their language and wouldn't have the slightest idea where to turn if I had a problem.

I do it (knocking heavily on any wooden object I can find) because I have confidence in the car.

Full disclosure is that I bought the car in Austria about 10 years ago, and I didn't make it home before it broke down on me. The first two years were painful due to mechanical problems, but that was a long time ago and I've had no trouble since.

Parts are easy to find, especially if you live in the US. Ironically, it is probably EASIER to find parts in the US than it is in Europe. There is an extensive network of suppliers who can find any part you need, and the prices are pretty reasonable if you consider the volume and uniqueness of the car. No, the parts aren't as cheap as a Honda Accord, but it isn't exactly a Honda either.

More food for thought: If you like the GT5S look, then I wouldn't rule out a conversion car. They have their pros and cons. There is more availability. A well-done conversion with a monster motor will be quicker than a stock factory 5-S. Depending on who did the conversion, they may have included upgraded, top-of-the-line brakes and other goodies that may be interesting.

On the other hand, if the conversion consisted of simply welding on fender flares are putting on big tires without making the other modifications required for the added stress of the monster rubber of the late cars, then you will quickly wear out or overstress certain components and have problems.

Many late-model Panteras in the US had to jump through hoops to comply with emissions, which may have reduced the available hp, espcially compared to an emissions-free Ford-era car.

In summary - a well-done and well-documented conversion car should have all the updates done by the factory and more. There are darn few GT5-S cars in the US, so the supply is much more limited.

On the other hand, an undocumented or incomplete conversion car would not be as desirable as a factory wide-body car. Food for thought.

Having owned both an 70's car ('72 pre-L) and a widebody (85 GT5-S) there is a significant difference in feel. But a 70's car that has been completely rebuilt from the ground up may be a different story.

Drive as many as you can before buying yours. It can be an expensive mistake if you buy the wrong car, or it can be a dream come true in the literal sense of the word if you buy the right car.

In front of the Factory, many miles from home, a few years ago...

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Is it worth keeping if I only drive it 2-3 times a year for the next 10-15 years?

Michael

Michael, I have said it in PM, but I will re-post for others (respectfully).

Keep the car. Sometimes you think you'll never get out there again. For many guys, you'll sell the car buy a big screen tv, finish the lasement, put a pool in the backyard, or buy a cottage. Then what do you have some home creature comforts, but once that cash is gone odds are, like many of my buddies, you'll just whine about getting a car, and life will get in the way.

Keep the car!!!!

Mark,

As always, you put up a VERY persuasive argument! I simply can't argue with the contents of your post.


Denis,

Your post is the other side of the coin that you've been sharing with me in our PM's, hence the catch 22. I think about it frequently and don't have an answer for how the huge hole in me would be filled without my Targa 5-S. This particular Pantera is a one shot deal and can't be replaced. This I know, and you've brought that into a sharper focus.


Charlie,

That's a great picture! I wish I had a picture of my Pantera in front of the deTomaso factory. I understand even the lettering has been removed from the factory.


David,

No matter what Pantera you wind up buying, you've come to the right place for support and friendship. That's what I get from these guys (as you can see), and it's invaluable! It's a major part of the reason for owning a Pantera. I, like others here are part of other forums in other online communities, and no other comes close to camaraderie here. We ARE all on the same side.

Michael

David,
Michael's car is truly awesome, and we all have mixed feelings of pride (that we know the guy that owns it, and he's a cool dude), and envy that he owns such a rare and strikingly beautiful Pantera. And so, we'd all hate to see him and the car part company, we know it would break his heart in the long run, and it would do the same to us as you live on the other side of North America, and Denis, Mark, Michael, and I (and many others)all live in the east and might never see the Targa again if it moved.

SO STOP PUTTING EVIL THOUGHTS IN HIS HEAD!!!!!

As for the Pantera, I've had my narrow body car for 2 years now, I didn't look for long, I knew what I wanted, I looked at some cars locally (rusty $40K wrecks!), read up on the forums and carefully reviewed this document >> http://www.banzairunnerpantera.com/how_to_buy.htm then went on a road trip to look at MY car, the former caretaker had taken 5 years to restore her, with photo documentation of the entire process, I crawled around under the car poking, prodding and banging for ages (he had it up off the ground for me when I arrived with the wheels off - a sign that there was nothing to hide), and then the wheels went on and it was fired up for a road trip down some straights and some twisties.

If you're in no hurry, get out to some events and talk to some of the guys, sit in the cars, and find what feels right to you, watch the key selling sites and poke and prod the owners like you're doing and you'll get the car you're after (except Michael's, that one is off limits - we obviously have to protect him from himself).

Michael,
I have 4 kids between 6 and 13, they all love the Pantera and they use it as a personal motivator/reward (Kid 1 gets homework done by 5pm each day and gets to go to the car show on Tuesdays, Kid 2 practices his music each evening and gets a ride to soccer on Thursdays etc. as for me, I get to drive it all the time AND spend time with the kids!)

Michael,

FWIW, I have 3 kids and they each LOVE when I drop one off at school in the Pantera - it's just plain cool! This is especially true now that 2 of them are in high school (actually, graduating seniors this year).

I sold my motorcycle for the very same reasons you're considering selling your Pantera when my kids were all between 1-4 years old, and regret it to this day. Of course, there's no budget for another one, and won't be for the foreseeable future either. I sure miss riding down a country 2-lane on that bike, even if it was only a handful of times each year once the kids arrived.

Best to hang on to the car - you need an outlet once in a while. And your kids will later enjoy and appreciate it too!

Guys,

You are a funny group. You all tell me to stick to my guns and get the car I really want. Good advice, I thought. Well, a GT5-S is the car I really want. You guys convince me not to let the naysayers get me down. You tell me the GT5-S is a great car; drives great, easy to work on, parts readily available, etc. You all inspired me. So I decided to take the plunge and go after a GT5-S.

So now that you all convinced me to go after a GT5-S, I decided to do so with gusto backed by your guys encouragement. But when I actually ask Michael if he would consider selling his car, you guys tell Michael not to sell the car. You are encouraging me and blocking me all at once. I've read many old posts on this board. It seems to be a recurring theme that anytime anyone contemplates selling their Pantera the whole board lights up and tells the guy not to sell.

You guys realize that guys like me will never be able to buy a Pantera if none of you guys will ever sell.

I get it though. You hate to see one of your buddies sell his Pantera, especially since I live on the West Coast and apparently most of you guys live on the east coast, and you won't have much opportunity to see the car anymore. Keep in mind that Michael says the car is parked basically 362 days per year. So the car isn't getting much exposure anyway.

Owning a Pantera is almost like belonging to a Fraternity club. And you guys hate to see one of your frat members drop out. Really, I get it.

If I buy Michael's car, I would be driving the car two or three times per week. I would be advertising the marquee and increasing awareness of the Detomaso brand. The car wouldn't disappear. It would just be transferred to someone who has more time to enjoy it.

If Michael had a regular GT5-S without the targa top, I am sure we could work out a deal because the GT5-S seem to fall into a typical price range from what I've seen...between 65k-75k based on several ads of these cars that I have seen on the internet that have sold in the recent past, and Joules has also corroborated that in one of his recent posts.

But the Targa throws a wrench into the equation. How much more is a GT5-S worth with a targa top? There may be almost no precedent because there have been so few produced. Well actually, we do have some precedent based on what Michael paid for the car. (Which I have no idea how much that was)

It's still somewhat of a long shot for me to buy Michael's car anyway. I'd have to hear more about the cars history, upgrades, etc. I brought it up for discussion because I am a serious buyer here looking for a high quality well sorted out Pantera GT5s, and I am honest. And if he genuinely is ready to sell his car I may be a painless option compared to other sellers who have to wade through dozens of looky loos calling and knocking on the door who aren't necessarily even serious, wasting everyone's time.

Michael, I sent you a PM but I haven't heard back. I don't know if you received it. Anyway, you can PM me or write back here. Would you consider selling your car or have you changed your mind?

You have two beautiful kids that need your attention, and your poor GT5-S just sits there in your garage sad and lonely. If you sell your car to me, I will carry the torch and take good care of this car, and I will be driving it often, as a beautiful car like this should be driven and enjoyed, not parked for indefinite periods.

David

P.S- Charlie, beautiful picture of your car. It is a historic picture too. I have never seen the DeTomaso factory before. It was so cool to see your car with the DeTomaso factory in the background.

David,

I did get the PM. The response to it will be lengthy and I haven't had the time yet to clear my head and write it uninterrupted. I actually have the response window still open, as I tried a few times. Hopefully, I'll get to it tonight as right now I'm off to a little league game...

Michael

The Targa belongs to Michael.... nuff said. Should stay with him and his family for life!! Michael is a great DeTomaso enthusiast and that pantera is his calling card. Cyboman doesn't remember but there was a huge car show going on in the Bronx I believe and I belonged to a different forum. I made a mention that I hoped a Pantera would make the event and Michael tracked me down just to let me know this place existed.
Good luck with the search, if you are serios I can tell you where a lot of these cars are.... just stay away from the black cars, I haven't got mine yet.

David, As stated in my earlier post, search and you shall find. My Mangusta was hidden in a collection of LamboFerattis, clean but had noit seen the light of day for at least 8 years. The car was NOT FOR SALE , but at then end of the day I convinced the owner I should be it's next owner.

Hint: If you are hard-up for a GT5s have you contacted Peter Havlik? screen thru QV500 and PROVAMO. Make your own little registry and contact the owners.

Yours Truly
Denis

David,

Denis is right.

There are a whole bunch of GT5 and GT5S cars for sale. In all colors and conditions. Honest, you will find the perfect one if you do a little googling and searching.

On this board we've helped lots of guys buy cars. Many times they become lifelong friends.

But we've known Cyboman for many years. We know he loves his car. We also know he will miss it terribly. Maybe less so if you pay a really high price. After all there aren't many like it.

Do some looking first. It's not going anywhere - not so fast anyhow. And actually, the reason we don't want him to sell it, is because we want him to sell it to one of us first.

David, Doctor Larry warned you about the P car fever. Take the doc's advice. Your low grade fever has turned into a 104 and raising temp. A GTS to a GT5-S, slow down. Learn about these cars from sites like this.Buy books,go see ,inspect, sit in, test drive as many P cars your time allows. Pantera's are a reliable
cars, but are old and need attention to keep the reliable. Chuck

quote:

I get it though. You hate to see one of your buddies sell his Pantera, especially since I live on the West Coast and apparently most of you guys live on the east coast, and you won't have much opportunity to see the car anymore.

David,
Have you considered moving to the east coast?

Seriously though, you've hit the nail on the head in that Micheal is an important part of the 'fraternity' and is caretaker of a gem of a car.

So we have the dilemma of encouraging you to pursue the car you want - we sincerely want you to be a happy and active member of the community, and we also want Micheal to keep the car we know he has a passion for, and believe he would regret giving up (should he decide to do that).

That leaves tracking down one of the other targas either real, or created, and either option can be a good one if the car is properly sorted as has been stated so many times in this thread.

Someone correct me here, but didn't Hall Pantera put out a couple of GT5-S Targas when they did their Hall Super Pantera models (there was at least one ("Purple Passion" pictured below)? But I'm sure I've seen pictures of another one at one of the vendors' shops recently (maybe it was Hall ... it was either blue with white stripes, or maybe it was a red car - my memory is failing me, I've seen too many photos)

I know I'm not talking about a real GT5-S Pavesi, but we'd be hard pressed to find a Pantera that is bone stock (I'm pretty sure Michael isn't on stock rims)



On the other hand, wait until you see Will Demelo's Group 4 when it rolls out, you may decide that's the style for you. David Berman's GT5 has an interior that makes most owners' hearts skip a beat. Take your time and look around - I was at a car show in Florida a few weeks ago and 7 Panteras showed up including a stunning white GT5-S (not a Targa, but still beautiful - see below).

BTW David, you sound like you're gonna fit into the community just fine, Welcome to the 'fraternity'

Guys,

Never even heard of QV500 until Denis mentioned it in his post (Thanks Denis). I went into the website and it appears to be some sort of registry of the Pantera cars. But none of these cars are listed for sale.

It appears I may have found Michael's GT-5s in the registry. Michael, is your chassis #9434? Because it looks just like your car. If it is, your car was originally white. Originally it had red interior. Originally it had a delta wing. And your original wheels are gone. I'm glad it is not original. I hope and pray that because your car is no longer original, the value has been somewhat compromised, to help offset whatever increased value the car has because it is a Targa. Because I'm scared that Targa top is going to cost me. (Ha!)

I also went through ProvaMo. There is only one GT5s listed for sale there. It is a beautiful Red with gold wheels. Completely gone through,completely sorted out. Perfect beautiful car asking 75k. I already contacted that guy. He lives in Florida and the car is already sold.

Being that there are only about 50 GT5-s in the USA, I don't get where you guys say there are plenty of these cars available. Yeah there are lots available in Europe, but I am scared to buy a car from Europe without even seeing it in person. And it would cost me thousands of dollars to fly to Europe to take a look. But I can fly anywhere in the USA to look at a car for just a few hundred dollars. So it seems to me my only chance to buy a GT5-s is from a small pool of guys (less than 50)who own these cars living in the USA.

Denis- No I haven't contacted Peter Havlik. Actually I have no idea who this person is. If this gentleman named Peter has any leads on a GT5-s, I would appreciate if you could forward me his e-mail so I can contact him.

Deloreans and DeTomaso- You also mentioned if I am serious you can tell me where lots of these cars are? Please do tell me. Thanks.

David B- You also mentioned that there are a whole bunch of GT5-s for sale. If so, please tell me where?

I checked ebay. No GT5-s listed in the USA ebay. I checked ProvaMo. None available there except the beautiful red one in Florida that already sold. I've checked Hemmings. None there. PIM- Nope, none there either. PistonHeads- Yeah they have some nice ones listed. Mostly RH drive and all in Europe.

7260- Yes I seem to have a temperature. I've gone from tinkering with the idea of looking at the GTS at PIM to deciding I want a GT5-s. It's Charlie's and Michael's fault for showing me pics of their cars. Ha!

But my heart was already migrating towards the GT5-s anyway. I checked out a nice '72 Red Pantera for sale last week. The owner was very nice and helpful. The car is in very good shape. Sounds nice too. We went for a drive. I couldn't help but notice the car had a very dated feel. It's not the car's fault. It is almost 40 yrs old. I've always loved the look of the '71-'74 Panteras. Still do. But when we drove it around it just felt like time has finally caught up with this car, even though the car performed fine.

A couple of years ago I went to PIM in Orange, Ca. to take a look at what they had. When I got there a gentleman with a Pantera GT5s pulled up. He told Jerry that his battery kept going dead. They suspected the radio might have been the cause. Anyway, it was the first time I saw a GT5-s. It looked so much more modern and refined than the '71-74 Panteras. Again that's no knock on the '71-74 cars. But the GT5-s has the advantage of being 15 yrs newer. That car left an imprint on me. It had a modern look and feel. More sophisticated if you will. JMO of course. But for me, the GT5-s is the best looking and most refined of the Panteras.

To me the GT5 is a car in transition. It had the wide body and looked more modern than the '71 narrow body Panteras. But the fenders looked sort of like an after market add on. The front spoiler looks bulky and unrefined IMO. No offense to any GT5 owners out there. They are nice cars. But to me the GT5-s is a result of the advances made from the genesis of the '71-'74 Panteras to the GT5, and they finally got it just right with the unveiling of the latest generation GT5-s. The GT5-s has smooth lines. The fender flares are graceful. The car looks like the finished product. That is the car for me.

I still like the look of Michael's car. The color, the decals, I don't know. That car just sort of all came together. I'm just saying.

I so much appreciate all of you guys for your input. I wonder if any of you guys are going to the Reno Fun Rally coming up? I am going to try to go. I hope to meet some of you guys there.


David

David sent you a PM
Denis

David,
Not sure if this will help, but here's how you might be able to get yourself a GT5-S. Go back to the ProvaMo site, but don't go to the 2 that are listed for sale, rather, go to the page that lists all of the GT5-S cars and click on the photos for each of the USA cars, many of them have phrases like 'listed for sale' although the dates are a couple of years old, so I don't know if they're already sold. It may be a case of Chuck being overwhelmed with work trying to update content on new Panteras and keeping all us registrants on the site happy that he doesn't have the cycles to keep the 'for sale' and 'sold' cars under the right links (or the owners just haven't updated their content, I don't know), so Maybe (fingers crossed) there are some cars actually for sale sitting under our noses.

If nothing else, call the numbers listed for the GT5-Ss, talk to the guys who either own them now (so they know you're looking), or find out who they've sold them to, and call the new guys so they'll know you're looking should they be having second thoughts about their purchase. You might even score the opportunity to get out and inspect a few cars!

... hopefully useful advice this time

quote:

Originally posted by adoberetreat:
It appears I may have found Michael's GT-5s in the registry. Michael, is your chassis #9434? Because it looks just like your car. If it is, your car was originally white. Originally it had red interior. Originally it had a delta wing. And your original wheels are gone. I'm glad it is not original. I hope and pray that because your car is no longer original, the value has been somewhat compromised, to help offset whatever increased value the car has because it is a Targa. Because I'm scared that Targa top is going to cost me. (Ha!)

David,

9434 is indeed my 5-S. QV500 has it listed as an '85, but it is actually an '86. It was originally white with red leather interior with the delta wing, white painted campys, and NO lettering on the side. That is how it was when I first came across it in April of '95 when I took that picture. I posted it on the web a few years ago, that's where QV500 got it from. It is listed on the ProvaMo website as well with better pictures. I was able to finally purchase it in Sept. '03. I got it in it's current color combo. The picture below is what it looked like when I first got it.

The car is bone stock except for the change in colors, and the wheels. Original campys can always be refitted, but I just don't think they suit the car at this point. I don't think these changes affect the value. In fact, the color and wheels really make the car 'pop' and make it much more attractive than it was in it's original form, hence making it more desirable. Just last season, I was asked if it was a new car. It totally fits in with modern exotics.

Ask around at what a Pantera knowledgeable shop would charge to do a targa conversion on a Pantera. I did when I had my '74. About 10 years ago, the only place who would attempt it (Tom Horvath? in CA) said it would cost a minimun of 50k, and would likely be closer to 100k when all was said and done. Gary Hall did 'Purple Passion' (pictured in an above post), and said he WOULD NOT duplicate that targa conversion for 250k! He said the targa conversion was way too labor intensive and costly, and he wouldn't take his time up with it again. Even after all that, it still isn't a Pavesi Targa. I'm not saying that a targa top will add 100k to the price of my Pantera, but it's not going to be a few thousand either. If you were to ride in a targa Pantera, I think your 'fever' would become life threatening!

Michael

David,

Find posts from CT Pantera on this board. He drove from CT to FL where his dad did a nice job restoring his car.

Nevermind... here it is: http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...562/m/6750000725/p/1

Check out the pics link at the beginning of his post. At the end of the pics are some of his Dad's white car.

I met his dad in Palm Beach. He built a beautiful GT5-S in his garage - by himself! Sometimes modifying an existing car to meet your ideals is not only way cheaper but gives you a lot more car for your money.

As for the Pavesi Targa, Hall has a chassis kit to provide support so you can cut the roof. Like Purple Passion. I've seen it and it's a beautiful piece. And not very expensive.

When it comes to Panteras you can really find anything under the sun or you can build one to match your dreams.

But I think you need to read more and see more before you decide. You're in CA, so go visit Hall, Wilkinson, PI, and all the other vendors. Pick their brains.

You need to know all that can be done. Then develop an idea of what you really want from such a car, how you will use it and how long you think this love affair will last. Understanding that will have a major effect on what you do next.

Then determine what you can spend and figure out the best way to get what you really want.

quote:

Originally posted by adoberetreat:
Being that there are only about 50 GT5-s in the USA, I don't get where you guys say there are plenty of these cars available. Yeah there are lots available in Europe, but I am scared to buy a car from Europe without even seeing it in person. And it would cost me thousands of dollars to fly to Europe to take a look. But I can fly anywhere in the USA to look at a car for just a few hundred dollars. So it seems to me my only chance to buy a GT5-s is from a small pool of guys (less than 50)who own these cars living in the USA.
********There are more cars in Europe than in the US, so if you really are looking for a factory GT5-S, you may not want to dismiss that option yet. You've got the Euro/dollar exchange rate going against you, but the dollar is at its strongest point in 7 or 8 years. The European DeTomaso community is quite small and many owners know each other and the cars. Depending on what country you are looking in, there are dependable people who will know the majority of the cars for sale.

Shipping from Europe to the US will be roughly $1000. A few years ago I shipped my old Pantera from NY to France for $750, and from France to California (to PIM) for $1000. Prices may have changed but it should give you an order of magnitude.

Registering a late-model Euro Pantera could be complicated on the other hand, and would require investigation. But if you find a Pantera for sale in Europe that you really like, I'd bet someone would be willing to look at it for you before you buy an airline ticket.

Denis- No I haven't contacted Peter Havlik. Actually I have no idea who this person is. If this gentleman named Peter has any leads on a GT5-s, I would appreciate if you could forward me his e-mail so I can contact him.
****Peter Havlik has a registry of only late-model Panteras. Links to his registry and contact info may be found here:
http://www.poca.com/index.php/cl/reg

He doesn't have a column regarding whether the car is currently for sale, but he may know of some off the top of his head.


David

The easiest and fastest way to find a Pantera, is to give the folks at PI Motorsports http://www.pim.net/ a call and let them know what you are looking for and let them find one for you. There are more buyers than sellers for Panteras right now and the folks at PI can help you speed up the process of finding the car you want.

Mike

David B - I looked at the link you sent. Very interesting. That sure is a good dad, and a talented dad. Also, thanks for telling me that Hall has a chassis kit to provide support so you can cut the roof and make a targa inexpensively. Purple Passion looks quite beautiful.

Charlie- Thanks for your suggestion for me to keep an open mind about not dismissing the Euro market. I will do that. I am scared about being able to register a late model Euro Pantera here in California. I plan to visit a AAA office and see if they have any suggestions or advice on registering a Euro Pantera.

Denis sent me a PM with Peter Havlik's e-mail. I sent him an e-mail but so far I have not heard back from him. Maybe he is very busy.

Pantera 1887 - I think you made a good suggestion for me to call P.I. Motorsports and see if they can rustle up a GT5-S. I'll do that.

So far I like the look of Michael's GT5 S the best. But I know that is going to be a longshot because he may or may not decide to sell. And if he does decide to sell he places a big premium for the car having a targa, which may knock me right out of the box. But I haven't given up yet. We'll see what happens.

David

quote:

so you can cut the roof and make a targa inexpensively

Peter Havlik has probably the most comprehensive registry of the 9000 series cars. Who owns them, where they are etc.
I think he is on vacation at the moment but I'm sure he will return your e-mail
Good luck with your search

Doug M

David,

Peter Havlik is quite the 9000 series enthusiast and does have a comprehensive compilation of info on these Panteras. He is a great guy and will get back to you.

Michael

David,

I personally feel that people who sell GT5 and GT5-S Panteras sell them for too little. How can you buy an updated Pantera for 60k, (that there are THOUSANDS of) but a rare model like a GT5 or GT5-S (less than 100 here?), even updated ones, for 65-75k? I just don't get it. IMHO, they should start at 80k. I'm not trying to price you, or anyone else out of the higher end models and make them unaffordable. Afterall, I can't change what the market will bear by myself, and I don't want to. Comparatively speaking, I just think they're under priced.

I place value on the fact that my Pantera IS a GT5-S, one with low miles that is in good shape. (It would be in better shape if I never drove it, but it wouldn't take much to 'top it off'.) I place more value on it because it is a Pavesi Targa, and I feel rightfully so (they ARE ultra rare, documented, factory conversions). I would not sell my Pantera for less than 100k. I'm not crazy, I'm just not trying to sell it. I wouldn't feel comfortable parting with it for less than that, so I wouldn't. For those who say, "With that attitude, he'll have it forever!" To them I say - Good for me!

David, you've come across as a decent guy, and I think you're already fitting right in with our community. I wholeheartedly encourage you to pursue your GT5-S. They are great cars, and you will not be disappointed. I look forward to your excited posts that you've got your Pantera and are showing it off for all of us to admire!

Michael

Michael,

I just happen to agree with you that it seems the GT5 and GT5 S Panteras sell for comparatively little. It doesn't make sense to me either. There were thousands of '71-74 Panteras yet there were only about 180 or so GT5 S Panteras ever built. Just because of the rarity I would have guessed these GT5 S cars would sell for much more. Also, the GT5 S Panteras had many improvements and upgrades compared to the '71-74 models. So I don't get it either. But then again I sort of do. It is the market place that determines the value of something.

Why is it a nice '68 Shelby Mustang sells for $250k yet a nice '71 Pantera might sell for 45k? Back in 1971 a Pantera cost three times more than a mustang, and more than twice as much as a Shelby. So what happened where the Shelby now commands so much money when the Pantera prices haven't kept pace? The answer is simple, if not bewildering and somewhat shocking. Supply and demand. Lots of people love Shelby's, thus demand surged and prices went way up.

Unfortunately for the Panteras, demand has been relatively comparatively low and thus Pantera sellers have been unsuccessful at fetching top notch prices like a Shelby or 426 Hemi Super Bee.

The GT5's and the GT5 S cars are very rare. But apparently demand is somewhat scant, keeping prices relatively low. I don't know why that is. But I have observed this phenomenon and that is the reason I thought I would try to find a Pantera GT5 S, because it seems you get more bang for your buck.

A few years ago I went to PI Motorsports in Orange Ca. They had a Black Group 4 tribute for sale with a fresh 427 hammer. Jerry Sackett told me the owner put over 150k into that car AFTER he had bought it. That car was a show car and a real beauty. I tried to buy that car for 75k. I got out bid. Someone bid 80k and it was sold. Dave Adler told me that 80k was the highest amount ever paid for a Pantera from his shop.

Michael, your car may very well be worth 100k. You guys can correct me if I'm wrong, if Michael sells his car for 100k that might be the highest price ever paid for a Pantera, not counting a real Grp4 or something like that. I believe there have been a couple of guys asking lots of money for their cars, such as the owner of the Blue Bomber was asking offers above 250k. And I read somewhere that Does200 wants 160k for his show cars. But to my knowledge so far no takers.

Anyway, I'm scared to be the guy who is just a rookie without much knowledge tip toeing into the Pantera community, and ending up paying the most ever in all of recorded history for a Pantera.

So I'll try to calm down and lower my sights a bit, and take more time. Michael, your GT5 S targa is so awesome and rare that if any Pantera could possibly fetch 100k, it just might be yours.

Thanks you guys for welcoming me to the Pantera community. I feel like a welcomed outsider. I can't wait till I actually own a Pantera so I can feel like a real member of your fraternity.

David

It's been said that Elvis' Pantera went for $1M, so anything in the six figure range will not be a record AFAIK

Oh, and at the Barret Jackson auction in 2008, there's a Pantera that has re-designed bumpers and tail-lights by Tom Tjaarda that went for $100k (plus 10% buyers commission, so that's 110K for a '73 car) - so that should make you feel pretty good about paying 6-figures for the car you really want! Note - I don't advocate using auction prices as any sort of indicator of what real world pricing should be, just trying to set your mind at ease that you won't necessarily be the guy that pays the most for a Pantera.

Tjaarda Car At Barrett-Jackson in '08

Michael's car is worth well over $100k. It's starting price should be $150k. It's the real deal. One of a just a handful of an original supercar.

What PI was referring to re the $80k top price, was the selling price of a "customized" car. There is no "collector" value and no "pedigree" for a typical '72 Pantera turned into a Group4 or GT5.

Every Pantera owner who can afford to do what he desires will spend money getting his car as close as financially feasible to his personal opinion of what perfection is. That could be stock, L, late model, GT4, GT5, GT5S or anything else. But that has nothing to do with cars, value or selling price.

$80k for that Black car from PI was a real deal. A very nice car. I saw it in Monterey. But such cars are not everyone's taste. I would have preferred to have bought someone else's work rather than spend twice as much doing it myself. Then again, I wouldn't know every nut and bolt as I do now.

Which is why I suggested originally that you really need to figure out why you want a Pantera and how you will use it. The options, usually fall somewhere along these lines:

1 - You will smile every time you walk by it in the garage. Dust it now and again. And take it around the block every month or to the odd event within a few miles from home.

2 - Polish it, get decent tires, safety check key components, change the fluids regularly and drive it on nice, dry, sunny, cool Sundays when there isn't much traffic - about 10 times a year.

3 - Meet other Pantera owners and find out what improvements to make first. Learn the vendors and where to get parts, then make the necessary reliability mods. Without fear of breakdowns you can now enjoy driving it more often each season.

4 - Decide that this is the only car for you and plan to make it a lifetime project. As you can afford the time and money to do so, over the years you improve it from front to back or usually from back to front. Along the way drive the living shit out of it every chance you get. You also appreciate it's true Grand Touring sports car abilities and relish heading out on extended road trips, looking for Fcars, Lambos and other such Euro trash to leave in the dust and make their owners feel like the wimps they are. (Ok, that's just my personality coming out...)

Does 200 has cars that are also first class - works of art. Also worth well over the $100k asking price.

If I had a million I'd buy Michael's car, a couple of Jan's cars and Lazlo's black car. Then I'd buy a rough '74 and build the killer cat I always wanted.

quote:

Originally posted by adoberetreat:
Michael,

I just happen to agree with you that it seems the GT5 and GT5 S Panteras sell for comparatively little. It doesn't make sense to me either. There were thousands of '71-74 Panteras yet there were only about 180 or so GT5 S Panteras ever built. Just because of the rarity I would have guessed these GT5 S cars would sell for much more.

David

A GM executive many, many years ago said, "styling sells cars".

I would suspect the look of the GT5 S is not everybody's cup of tea-most people must prefer the original look?

David B,

When Dave Adler told me that the black Grp4 with the 427 hammer that sold for 80k was the highest price ever paid for a Pantera at his company, he was not referring only to customized Pantera's. He specifically said he never recalled ANY Pantera at his shop selling for more than 80k in the entire time he has owned P.I. Motorsports.

I appreciate your thoughts that you believe Michael's Pantera is worth more than 150k. But you were a little early to say that. You were supposed to say that AFTER I buy Michael's car, not now! Your last post probably cost me another 50k. Thanks for sharing bro.

Kidding aside, when Michael bought his targa in 2003, we were going through one of the biggest boom economies in memory. Real estate prices were soaring. Credit was readily available, unemployment was low, business's were doing great. It seemed everyone had money because either they had high salaries, or they were taking out equity loans on their homes that had skyrocketed in value, using the money to buy boats, fancy cars, vacation homes, etc.

Fast forward 7 yrs to 2010. We are in the throngs of the second biggest collapse capitalism has ever seen. The entire banking system would have collapsed without the government stepping in with bailout money. Huge corporations going bankrupt everywhere you look. AIG Insurance would have collapsed save for another govt bailout. Unemployment is high. Jobs are scarce. Credit is tight. Our economy is so bad America single handedly brought down the entire world economy. Now virtually every country in the world is doing badly economically. With money tight, everything today is worth less than it was in 2003. Remember, In 2003 during the biggest boom economy in memory, Michael's car was still a targa back then and Michael paid nowhere near 150k for it then.

So now our economy is in the tank, credit is tight, jobs are scarce, real estate values are way down and we are suffering through the worst economy in American history since 1929, and yet in the midst of this crisis and global economic meltdown Michael's car somewhow skyrocketed to be worth 150k, just when I want to buy it? It doesn't make sense. Although I swear that would serve as a nice metaphor for the story of my life.


David B, I do agree with you in spirit. It seems like these GT5 and GT5-S cars should command lots and lots of money. After all, they were virtually built by hand. They were considered world class super cars at the time I believe. I don't know why some cars like the Shelby's and some other muscle cars are worth a ton of money yet the Pantera lags, especially the GT5 and GT5S? Someone here posted that maybe not that many people like the styling of the GT5 and GT5-S. I don't know. They look like nicely styled cars to me. But it is interesting and befuddling to me that the classic original narrow body Pantera's seem to command prices very close to the GT5 and GT5-Ss. It just doesn't make sense. But I guess it shows that most people still like the old narrow body classic styled Pantera's. Those narrow body Pantera's of the early '70s were styled way ahead of their time, and they still look great, so maybe it does make sense.


David

I'm not sure you can look at other car sales to put a price on the targa GT5-S.

There is only one in the US. Assuming Michael was really interested in selling it, then the price would depend on what he is willing to take and what the buyer is willing to pay. There aren't enough similar cars to really establish a trend, although you could establish what a "normal" GT5-S is selling for or what a Ford-era Pantera is selling for, to see if the price differential is worth it to you.

I suppose it is sort of like the Factory Group 4 cars. There is only one sold every couple of years. The so-called Andy Warhol car sold for roughly $50,000 about 10 years ago, and 4 times that amount 5 years later. Nobody was really looking for a group 4 racecar when it was up for sale 10 years ago. a few years later, there was a buyer looking specifically for such a car, and the seller was looking to sell.

With tiny markets, weird things can happen to prices. If someone is looking to sell and there are no buyers, the car can be practically given away. Or if there are 2 or 3 buyers all looking at the same car, and there is no second similar car on the market, the price can be driven up substantially.

David,

You will see from reading previous posts on the topic of Pantera values that there is no shortage of opinions.

In MY opinion, two of the most significant reasons that Panteras don't have the "collectible" value of other low-production exotics are:

1) They were originally presented as a "cheap" alternative to the thoroughbred exotics of the day. Other American powered cars have reached very high values (Iso Griffo, Monteverdi, Bizzarrini) but they were always presented as high-end, exclusive cars and thus are "blue chip" investments.

2) Pantera owners (even those with very rare GT5, GT5-S and Pushbutton cars) feel quite comfortable customizing and modifying their cars from stock to create their "perfect" vision of a Pantera. Just look at the values of a customized Ferrari or Shelby GT350 (or any other "blue chip" car) and you will GENERALLY see a dramatic reduction in value for "resto-mods" compared to a completely original stock or "survivor" car. Yes, there are ALWAYS a few exceptions (the 300 SL Gullwing with the new Mercedes driveline is a perfect example), but these exceptions are rare.

I think that it is unlikely that MOST Panteras will ever be "blue chip" cars for these two reasons. And that is fine with me because I didn't buy mine as investment. If, however, you DO wish to buy one as an investment, then you should ONLY consider a COMPLETELY stock, original car. I suspect there are less than a hundred or so Panteras worldwide that can claim that status. Ironically, the "100 mile" white '74 Pantera isn't one of them because the current owner/seller has made some minor "updates" that have rendered it "destroyed" to some in the serious collector community. Of course, many changes can be reversed, but as is so often said "they are only original once".

Good luck with your search David. Don't worry, ownership isn't a requirement of acceptance into our community, but it will be more fun for you when you do finally have "your" cat.

Mark

David,

I still don't know what kind of owner you want to be... 1, 2, 3, or 4?

Mark Charlton, you wrote such a great post. I completely agree with you the two reasons you stated why Panteras are not likely to ever become blue chip investments. Somehow over the years, Panteras have become a platform as a restomod for enthusiasts who love to tinker and enhance their car, with little or no regard for originality. People buy their Pantera, then they start making cosmetic and mechanical changes to the car in their perceived artistic image of beauty. That's ok, but in the process the bloodline has been permanently marred as being considered as a classic and prized asset.

The general public would be horrified to see someone use their artistic expression and cut a hole in the hood of a '67 Shelby to make custom air vents. Anyone who did that to an original Shelby should probably go to jail. But Pantera owners often do these types of things, then show their Pantera friends a pic of their car, from whom they usually get rave compliments and reviews.

If there was such thing as a Pevasi targa Shelby, and if only about 5 such Pevasi Shelby's were ever produced, such a car might command over half a million dollars or more. But we aren't talking about a Pevasi Shelby. We are talking about a Pevasi Pantera. And Panteras simply have not commanded big money under almost any circumstances, because the larger market doesn't think of Panteras in the same light as a Shelby or other low production car likely to go up in value. And I don't mean any disrespect to the marque or to Michael's car, because I love Michael's car. But the fact is that Michael's car was a targa each time it changed hands over the years, and it never commanded unusually higher money then, so I will be surprised if all of the sudden it will now.

Charlie McCall-- I also agree with everything you said. The Pantera is in such a tiny market. If several people are looking for a Pantera of a certain color or look all at the same time, the price could potentially be driven up. Conversely, if there aren't many buyers because of the economy or whatever, the car might have to be almost given away if the seller really wants to sell.

Panteras are good looking cars. They are fun, but they are not blue chip investments. Its been about 40 yrs since these cars came out. If they were going to go way up in value like the Shelbys and other low production cars, IMO it would have already happened.

Basically Panteras seemed to be bought and sold amongst the Pantera enthusiasts, which relatively speaking is a small group. And as a result this makes for stablized prices give or take. The larger public seems to be unaware of what a Pantera even is. So probably owning a Pantera will never be a big money winner. But that's ok. Because most people buy a Pantera for the love of the breed, and for their enjoyment, and to own a car that is unique and different. Most Pantera owners know going in that a Pantera is not a blue chip investment.

When I find my Pantera, I won't even be thinking of it as an investment to be making lots of money when I eventually sell. But I will be conscious of the price I pay when I buy a Pantera. Because I don't want to lose a ton of money when I eventually sell.

David

Since Panteras are supposed to be featured in the new Fast and Furious movie, perhaps there will be more public awareness forthcoming.

quote:

Originally posted by four walling:
Since Panteras are supposed to be featured in the new Fast and Furious movie, perhaps there will be more public awareness forthcoming.

Wait...what?

The real reason Panteras will never be worth anything is there was aa satanic rock group of the same name. It has forever tainted our hollowed marque with imagery of profain idol worship. We are lucky if we can give our cars away after someone does a google on Pantera.

quote:

Originally posted by RobertVegas:

quote:

Originally posted by four walling:
Since Panteras are supposed to be featured in the new Fast and Furious movie, perhaps there will be more public awareness forthcoming.

Wait...what?

I picked up the info here. Look at the topics that have "sacrificial Panteras" as the subject.

http://list.realbig.com/piperm...l/subject.html#start

...and maybe a trailer is coming soon?

http://fast-and-furious-5-movi...fast-five-movie.html

David B,

To answer your question, the type of Pantera owner I plan to be would be a combination of what you said in #2,#3, and #4 in your post.

My future Pantera will always be garaged when I'm not driving it and never driven on rainy days. I plan to drive the car 5000 miles or more per year. I hope to find a Pantera that has already been substantially upgraded mechanically for reliability. My dream Pantera would be a GT5-S that has been built to sound loud and mean so when I drive off my neighbors windows would rattle. (I say a little harmless mischief is a good thing.)

A couple of years back I went to P.I. Motorsports to look at black Grp4 tribute with a 427 hammer engine. They fired the car up for me. Wow that car sounded absolutely ferocious, it was almost frightening. It would be great to find a GT5-S with a 427 hammer or something like that. But if not, I'll buy the nicest car I can find and possibly upgrade the motor eventually. Dave Adler told me although the 427 hammer engine pushes 600 hp, the engine is quite tractable and can be street driven no problem.

My goal would be to be the best caretaker of a Pantera that I could possbily be. Eventually when I sell, I want the future owner to enjoy the car as much as I did.

David

More food for thought regarding your monster motor... (I'm bored and stuck in an airport...)

Panteras sometimes get a bad rap for being unreliable. The stock 351C is an extremely reliable engine in its original, factory format. People aren't content with 300hp, and begin experimenting. And that's where things start to go awry.

The Ford factory built millions of motors with parts that were engineered to go together, with extensive testing. YOur local speed shop may have built a hundred, max, with the same configuration. You are forging your own path and you have to know that.

I'm convinced that a lot of engine problems come from people who didn't select parts that play well together, or didn't optimize the overall system, or they strayed too far from the main path. The performed a certain amount of experimentation, and some experiments turn out well and some don't.

Talk to owners of the 427 hammer before buying it, and talk to owners of any speed shop before spending your money there. There are lots of reliable, high output motors out there. There are also some sad stories.

When I had my motor rebuilt, I had Dan Jones specify every component, and I'm thrilled. Seek out someone you trust and let them tell you what you should and should not aim for.

I guess my point is that a stock, 300hp engine is going to be dead reliable. The further you stray from stock configuration, the more likely you could have problems if you aren't careful. (this isn't a warning away from radical engines, just make sure you know what you are getting into)

Let's see... where's the bar in here?

I don't want to contradict anyone, but after much review of the options, I went ahead with a stroker rebuild. That was 10 years ago.

In the 10 years since, I have added lot of 20/50 Mobil 1, but all I've replaced was a carb power valve, spark plugs and plug wires. That's it - over 10 years!

And I drive my car everywhere. 522 HP, 510 ft lbs of torque and I put the hammer down wherever and whenever. I take this beast downtown in traffic and on 1000 mi road trips. It has never overheated. Never failed to start. Never broke down. Absolutely bulletproof (...looking for some wood to knock on).

The 351 block is what makes a Pantera. Just find a reputable builder. Have others verify the specs of the planned build. There's lots of info and qualified experts here.

BTW, all my specs are detailed on my website below.

When the time comes to rebuild my engine, I will probably go with a stroker as well, and will search out those that are happy with their engines to shamelessly copy what they have done. I've heard that you are happy, David, so when that day comes (hopefully in the rather distant future!) I may come looking to see what you've done.

I guess that over the years we've all heard "The Pantera isn't reliable", and when we investigate a little bit we find that the owner strayed far from the original formula, didn't do his homework, and his experiment was less than satisfactory.

By the way - wandering around somewhat aimlessly from subject to subject, another data point for what a Pavesi targa may be worth...

Here's a picture from 1998 or 1999 of me sitting in Roland Jaekel's Pavesi convesion GTS. It was for sale back then for $30,000 USD. The engine was nothing special and smoked a little, if I remember correctly, but the engine is the least of the issues... the car itself was rust-free and was one of the 14 (14? 8? I forget) targas built.

I was sorely tempted as I thought it was priced low based on the rarity of the targas. I also thought it would be cool to have a targa Pantera, but I was already beginning to think of buying a GT5-S, so I passed.

Roland later bought the last set of factory GT5-S panels and converted it to a 5-S because he couldn't find any takers at the time despite a rather attractive price.

Last year Roland had a rather high speed crash with it and I don't know its whereabouts, or if the car was scrapped.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie McCall:
Last year Roland had a rather high speed crash with it and I don't know its whereabouts, or if the car was scrapped.

I thought Roland sold that car a couple of years ago and bought an Si?

That car was originally a '75 GTS and was used by Pavesi as the prototype for the targa conversion.

Michael

No, as far as I know he never had an Si.

His GT5-S conversion had an SI spoiler thingie at the base of the windshield so perhaps that's what you are thinking of?

He now has a Guara, although I don't remember if he bought it before or after crashing the targa, but the targa was apparently rather comprehensively destroyed. :-(

Charlie,

Are there any pictures of it crashed?

(I am truly saddened by this news.)

Michael

Michael -
I don't believe there are any photos. At least I've never seen any.

What I think I remember is that the passengers were ok, but the car was not. I imagine we'll see Roland in 6 weeks time at Le Mans Classic and I'll ask him.

It's funny - I only know of 2 Pavesi targas - yours and his, so I don't know what ever happened to the rest.

I also know of (and have photos of) 2 Pantera SI targas, although I don't know if Pavesi converted those cars as well.

One belongs to Franz Krump, and the other has a total of 20km on the odometer (or something like that), and still has the plastic on the doors!!

I wonder where the other cars are?