Aluminum radiators work fine, and there are two basic types: all-welded and partly welded with epoxy seals. Do not use the epoxy ones; tey are unrepairable while the all welded ones can be fixed. There are no secret alloys in OEM rads. The 'reliability' problem stems from corrosive local water in many areas. Corvettes and Z-28s have had aluminum rads since the early '80s and all aluminum engines since the late '90s and those guys have low warranty claims. THey also use sacrificial anodes of zinc or magnesium in their upper tanks. Most Fluidyne rads are now sold with a bottle of No-Rosion to keep your local tap water at bay.
One thing you can check (which is kind of fun), is your Pantera's 'local action'. Take a good VOM, set it on the lowest voltage range and ground one probe while sticking the other in your surge tank's water. A reading of more than 70 millivolts indicates you have what amounts to a small battery in your cooling system chewing away at anything that will dissolve. You desperately need a sacrificial anode, distilled water, No-Rosion or all three! But you'll need a really good VOM; a $9.95 one from Autozone will show nothing.
FWIW, mine shows 40 millivolts with that test and I run an aluminum rad, cylinder heads, waterpump and an oil-to-water heat exchanger with 50% Prestone antifreeze, and change it yearly. All those alloy parts have been in our car approaching 20 years without dissolving. I also have an aluminum engine block that will soon join the other light-alloy parts, with no worries. You just gotta understand what you're dealing with.
quote:a small battery in your cooling system chewing away at anything that will dissolve.
This is all news to me. If the main switch on the car battery is off, does that help in protecting the alu radiator, or is that unrelated?
I just use 50% water and 50% blue coolant, and hope it'll last forever. It can hold 13lbs for hours.
Mikael,
This type of corrosion is called galvanic corrosion. It occurs when 2 dissimilar metals are present in a conductive solution, like your cooling system. Its a chemical reaction which occurs regardless if the battery is connected or not. As mentioned one method to prevent it is to put in a sacrificial anode, i.e. zinc, which will corrode instead of the aluminum. Another method is to make your coolant system less conductive e.g. use distilled or de-ionized water instead of tap water.
This type of corrosion is called galvanic corrosion. It occurs when 2 dissimilar metals are present in a conductive solution, like your cooling system. Its a chemical reaction which occurs regardless if the battery is connected or not. As mentioned one method to prevent it is to put in a sacrificial anode, i.e. zinc, which will corrode instead of the aluminum. Another method is to make your coolant system less conductive e.g. use distilled or de-ionized water instead of tap water.
Mikael, sometimes its related via whats called a 'ground loop'. After getting your 'galvanic battery' evaluated with the VOM, try turning on the ignition and then the headlights with the meter still connected; a change in voltage on the meter indicates a bad ground somewhere, which you can generally isolate by pulling fuses one at a time. This is a separate problem that often shows up as a change in "oil pressure" or "engine temp" when the headlights are switched on. But as I said, it only works with a really good VOM; I use a $350 Fluke meter borrowed from my work. Another way you can sometimes rate your coolant's acidity is with swimming-pool pH paper; it should be above 7.0 for best longevity of light-alloys. But some anti-freezes are dye-colored and mask the change of color on the paper.
Tap water is not universally bad for cooling systems. In the town I formerly lived in we drank well water from the tap which was very hard, I had to use bottled water or RO water in the cooling system, as the tap water would leave a lot of scale and deposits in the cooling system. However, the tap water in Ventura is very low in deposits, I have no reservation about using Ventura's tap water in the cooling system.
The cooling system wants water that will not leave scale and deposits, while at the same time not corrode or pit the metal. Softened water is the best choice according to NoRosion. A softener exchanges positive sodium ions for positive calcium and magnesium ions. I would think that makes softened water an excellent electrolyte, yet Norosion recommends it. NoRosion claims water with a depletion of ions is to be avoided, i.e. double distilled water, de-ionized water, high purity water, ultra-pure water. Of course, the depletion of ions is what makes those types of water poor conductors.
The additives in coolant controls a lot of the problems associated with corrosion, but those additives deplete with age and/or use, therefore the coolant will become corrosive with age and use. This is why the cooling system should be drained and refilled with new coolant every 18 to 24 months unless your coolant treatment specifies otherwise. For instance, Norosion claims if you add their treatment every 12 months you can extend the coolant service interval to 5 years.
-G
The cooling system wants water that will not leave scale and deposits, while at the same time not corrode or pit the metal. Softened water is the best choice according to NoRosion. A softener exchanges positive sodium ions for positive calcium and magnesium ions. I would think that makes softened water an excellent electrolyte, yet Norosion recommends it. NoRosion claims water with a depletion of ions is to be avoided, i.e. double distilled water, de-ionized water, high purity water, ultra-pure water. Of course, the depletion of ions is what makes those types of water poor conductors.
The additives in coolant controls a lot of the problems associated with corrosion, but those additives deplete with age and/or use, therefore the coolant will become corrosive with age and use. This is why the cooling system should be drained and refilled with new coolant every 18 to 24 months unless your coolant treatment specifies otherwise. For instance, Norosion claims if you add their treatment every 12 months you can extend the coolant service interval to 5 years.
-G
I've been using premixed anti-freeze. No more chemicals to worry about in the tap water.
In my experience you can't eliminate galvanic action on aluminum. The thinner it is, the bigger the problem.
The aluminum fins on the a/c condensers here suffer the worst. There seems to be no way to neutralize it and with the rock salt used here in the NE, the stuff grows on the cars even in a sealed garage that never sees salt itself.
The only thing worse that I can imagine would be living right on the beach with a salt water source right there. The salt is going to be in the air.
Zinc is used on galvanized metal here simply to attract the action to it rather then the metal it is protecting, which is usually steel.
There is no way to eliminate the process, just slow it down some.
There is only a one year warranty on the Fluidyne. That alone tells me volumes.
In my experience you can't eliminate galvanic action on aluminum. The thinner it is, the bigger the problem.
The aluminum fins on the a/c condensers here suffer the worst. There seems to be no way to neutralize it and with the rock salt used here in the NE, the stuff grows on the cars even in a sealed garage that never sees salt itself.
The only thing worse that I can imagine would be living right on the beach with a salt water source right there. The salt is going to be in the air.
Zinc is used on galvanized metal here simply to attract the action to it rather then the metal it is protecting, which is usually steel.
There is no way to eliminate the process, just slow it down some.
There is only a one year warranty on the Fluidyne. That alone tells me volumes.
I have an aluminum radiator on my 2002 GMC truck. I had to replace the radiator a couple of years ago. It wasn't the aluminum, it was the plastic end tank the failed. I inlet pipe on the plastic tank cracked.
Why do aluminum tanks on production vehicles have better survival rates? They are driven more, as daily drivers and in general and don't tend to sit.
Here's a a way to lessen the affects of galvanic action - disconnect the battery whenever the car is parked in the garage.
Fluidyne said to ground the radiator. I don't know if they still say that now but if you want to promote galvanic action, giving it a good path to ground is definitely the way to do it. Also, I am told Fluidyne now includes a bottle of Norosion their new radiators. I don't know if it's still true but at least it sounds like they are starting to listen to the complaints. They should probably also fire their tech support.
Regarding the laydown kit, I used one on my car even though I didn't have hood vents since my friend installed a laydown kit on his car without vents either but he had a different aluminum radiator setup. No problems with the set up on my friends car but mine wouldn't cool, even at freeway speeds. Hall has a 45 degree radiator that might work better for me but I can't recall if it's brass or aluminum.
Well... en.ough ramblings from me
Why do aluminum tanks on production vehicles have better survival rates? They are driven more, as daily drivers and in general and don't tend to sit.
Here's a a way to lessen the affects of galvanic action - disconnect the battery whenever the car is parked in the garage.
Fluidyne said to ground the radiator. I don't know if they still say that now but if you want to promote galvanic action, giving it a good path to ground is definitely the way to do it. Also, I am told Fluidyne now includes a bottle of Norosion their new radiators. I don't know if it's still true but at least it sounds like they are starting to listen to the complaints. They should probably also fire their tech support.
Regarding the laydown kit, I used one on my car even though I didn't have hood vents since my friend installed a laydown kit on his car without vents either but he had a different aluminum radiator setup. No problems with the set up on my friends car but mine wouldn't cool, even at freeway speeds. Hall has a 45 degree radiator that might work better for me but I can't recall if it's brass or aluminum.
Well... en.ough ramblings from me
quote:FWIW, mine shows 40 millivolts with that test
I have 30 millivolts, should I just forget about then? Alu rad, heads, water pump.
I found my way here as I was about to post a report on my cooling mods.... It's hot as hell here in Central florida. I drive my car on five or ten mile trips just about every day. Today I drove it ten miles light to light and then 55 miles south to Tampa at 75mph, about six miles light to light to my parents house. I was there about 30 mins and then made the trip back. My car ran at 179 degress the whole way and bumped up to 185 light to light. I have a custom alum rad, single 16" spal, SS tubes, open hood and the swirl tank mods. My a/c was blowing cold the whole way, it's dripping a little but blowing cold as.... Love it!...
I just went through my cooling system, pulled the car out one day and had a nice steam plume coming from the hood, luckily it was just a pin hole.
I decided to go ahead and replace all wear items, waterpump, and thermostat.
1717 is equiped with the Hall Phoenix radiator, stainless tubing, and relocated stainless tanks.
When I pulled the radiator out and took to the shop is when I found out that brass copper radiators and a shop capable to work on them is almost a thing of the past now. I did find a shop who still repairs them, like others who have posted in this thread a recore was going to be in the $400-$500 range. But just the rod out was $240. I went ahead and got a new water pump, Stewart Stage 1, Robert Shaw 180 degree thermostat, the one in the motor was a 160 degree. had to repalce the green stripe hose at the radiator because I had to cut it to remove it from the radiators necks. I also went ahead and got t-bolt clamps to use instead of the worm gear hose clamps.
Before the reinstallation I flushed the entire system, until good clean water was flowing. I also flushed the block while the water pump was off.
I used two gallons of Prestone anti-freeze, and two bottles of Redline Water Wetter. Filled the system started the car checked for leaks and after I made sure everything was burbed I let her sit there and idle for 45 mins. Fans ran as they should and the car never got over 190 degrees!
I decided to go ahead and replace all wear items, waterpump, and thermostat.
1717 is equiped with the Hall Phoenix radiator, stainless tubing, and relocated stainless tanks.
When I pulled the radiator out and took to the shop is when I found out that brass copper radiators and a shop capable to work on them is almost a thing of the past now. I did find a shop who still repairs them, like others who have posted in this thread a recore was going to be in the $400-$500 range. But just the rod out was $240. I went ahead and got a new water pump, Stewart Stage 1, Robert Shaw 180 degree thermostat, the one in the motor was a 160 degree. had to repalce the green stripe hose at the radiator because I had to cut it to remove it from the radiators necks. I also went ahead and got t-bolt clamps to use instead of the worm gear hose clamps.
Before the reinstallation I flushed the entire system, until good clean water was flowing. I also flushed the block while the water pump was off.
I used two gallons of Prestone anti-freeze, and two bottles of Redline Water Wetter. Filled the system started the car checked for leaks and after I made sure everything was burbed I let her sit there and idle for 45 mins. Fans ran as they should and the car never got over 190 degrees!
I bought my'74 in 2003. The FIRST thing I did was replace the radiator (stock radiator was leaking when I bought the car). The PO had installed the Meriah fans in the stock "pusher" brackets. All I did was swap out the radiator. Last year I completed the cooling system upgrade by installing dual Spal 12" fans ("puller configuration") and Pantera Electronics' Radiator Fan Controller. Huge improvement over stock fans (or even Meriahs) and 37-year old RELAYS! I did a "partial lay-down", leaving just enough room for the fans. The Fluidyne has been 100% reliable. If I were changing a stock system, I would do it all at once. While the system is opened, change all of the rubber hoses using high quality silicone or Gates Green Stripe. The dual-fan Flex-A-Lite setup is very good too from what I have heard. Oh..one more thing, make sure you have the correct thermostat for the Pantera..easy to search this forum for the p/n. It's been written up a number of times! Be COOOOOL!
Swen
Swen