Radiators?

I installed a Fluidyne a couple of years ago. I had never been able to drive my car for more than a few minutes before it got dangerously close to overheating, and heaven forbid I should get stuck in traffic. I found myself spending so much time and attention looking at the temperature gauge, that it was dangerous to driving the car. Ever since I installed the Fluidyne, it's been a non-issue. Highly recommended.

Another item I would highly recommend is the Pantera Electronics radiator fan controller. It takes the load off the fuse panel and ignition and ramps both fans up to top speed depending on coolant temp.

I've got the Fluidyne with twin sucker fans from P.I. Motorsports.

I have the fans turn on at 195 via the EFI control, and they stay off most of the time if you are moving on the freeway. Saw max about 216 degrees running uphill in 90 degree weather. System works great.

Just make sure you have a high output alternator to serve the radiator fans, blower fans, a/c fan, and headlights all at once. I vote for the 140 amp Powermaster.

I'm kinda afraid of the Fluidyne. It is aluminum and you just can't solder that thing up to fix a leak.
Anyone out there where their Fluidyne has lasted more then 5 years?

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Anyone out there where their Fluidyne has lasted more then 5 years?

Mine is going on seven years...

If I can remember I think I'm going on 7/8 years!

Agreed! I was very disappointed in mine which started leaking after only 3 years! My stock rad lasted 25 years. Anyhow, I got another Fluidyne. It's still the best priced rad. This time I used Norosion coolant and we'll see how long it lasts. So far so good.

I always based my decisions, rightly or wrongly, on what Gary Hall would tell me. Gary's gone a while now so what what he said might be dated. He told me he would not sell me a Fluidyne. It was a piece of junk.

Aluminum radiators don't dissipate more heat then brass does. The only benefit to aluminum was to reduce the weight of the car for racing. The Fluidyne had a time clock running on it and would fail and leak within a couple of years. There seems to be supporting evidence to that effect? Sounds like about a 50% failure rate withing 5 years to me?

Compare that to the original radiator, which in my case is still good but the problem for me is that I am listening to everyone else in saying to change it and some of the fine fins have detached themselves from the fluid tubes and are floating. I don't like that.

Gary thought that the Phoenix was the way to go. He admitted that it was a monster size wise but was tested in the summer in Phoenix and the car ran normally? His criteria was that there would be no possibility of under capacity, which I think he achieved?

Wilkinson on the other hand thinks that Halls radiator is a joke. Gross overkill? It is brass and is not light. It is repairable though.

Wilkinson and Hall are certainly good to use as yardsticks and often seem to find themselves at odds? Halls thinking seemed to be in the "ultra Pantera" category, while Wilkinson's in the, what's wrong with the original theory?

Bev Hall doesn't even know what the Phoenix is, they just have their own radiator now to sell? I believe it is the Phoenix since it is 50% greater capacity then original.

Both are in the same price category so that isn't really an issue here.

This is why I asked you guys here about all this. As usual there is a 100% disagreement on the results and it is up to me to determine, based upon all data, which is the best way to go.

It would seem that the vendors opinions are biased upon which product they handle. I suspect that simply is a function of what they can make the most money on? None of them are angles in that sense.

I will say to all that I have received private messages asking for anonymity that the Fluidyne was a mistake. Don't go that way.

To some I suppose, going $600 every couple of years is no big deal and is more then acceptable?

I suppose that there is no perfect unit, at least in the eyes of the beholder?

I thank everyone for their inputs. I am not judgmental on the opinions. I need to decide for myself.

I do believe that your Fluidyne data may be dated. I believe the issue was that they at one point epoxied the core to the side tanks and the epoxy would fail. Recogniziong the error, Fluidyne changed the technique to solder. Thus, I believe the older Fluidynes were a problem and the newer less so. This is why you may be recieving mixed feedback.

Panteradoug,

I totally follow your last post.

I"m looking to replace or rebuild my stock radiator. I actually appreciate the opinions here. Every vendor has their own wildly different opinion, and it is truely frustrating.

Facts about the Hall radiator are simple: it seems very suited for street cars and can be easily repaired by a radiator shop. It's heavy.

Facts about the Fluidyne (maybe even the Ron Davis one also): it's lightweight and works well. Some versions may be undersized for high-hp engines. They can't be repaired by your average radiator shop. Beware of any radiator that use zip ties to mount the fans to the core. I can't say that they last as long, as I don't really know that.

I hope this adds to the discussion. I'm not saying any vendor's advise isn't worth much, but how in the world do they get so wildly different?

My point here is not to defend or deficate on vendors, manufacturers or individuals. I need to extricate as much of the truth as I can within a given amount of time,

I do understand that opinions will vary. It is disturbing to find major experts like Hall and Wilkinson disagreeing so vehemently.

Not necessarily thinking of Pantera owners review statements here but I do acknowledge reading tire reviews at the Tire rack. One in particular sticks in my mind.

It was a review of snow tires by an owner in
Florida. He commented that he had about 150 miles on them and that they wore very well and were great in the snow. It was August.

Think about that a little,

So what is the advantage of the Fluidyne if you don't hate Hall

To Bev's defense, she always tells it like it is and she knows what it is not. And it's not the Phoenix. They don't sell them anymore. I also heard that the newer Fluidynes are less prone to corrosion. I know many guys who have not had any problems for years with theirs. Given the deal on Fluidynes is about half the price of a brass 'not Phoenix' rad and that the in and out tubes are in a different configuration, I opted to give Fluidyne another chance. Wilkinson speaks highly of them and his decent price and the simplicity of the install not affecting my current layout, tube and hose locations and 3 fans, my choice was easier.

There is very little difference in cost. Hall is 625. Wilkinson $525(not stated which radiator). Procision (fluidyne) 561. Not enough top argue over, especially to get the right unit.

Halls whether or not it is the Phoenix, says 50% greater capacity.

I wish Marlin would stop holding back and say what he means to say?

Fluidyne is also available on eBay for $550 with free shipping. The same guy has been selling them for a long time.

http://tinyurl.com/Fluidyne-Radiator

John

Summit sells the Fluidyne for $530. Again, Mine is going on 7 years without an issue. As I see it, the 2 reasons to go with Aluminum is weight and cost. If those aren't issues for you then Brass is the answer... To each their own...

There is also a Superior aluminum radiator online at ebay. Anyone here know anything about it? Sounds like it is only 2" thick?
The Fluidyne is 3.5" thick. That's a monster if you ask me? Who said the Phoenix was overkill?

The only issue I have with the alumimum is durability. Here in the Northeast, I get corrosion on the car in the garage because of the salt used on the roads in the winters.

These aluminum radiators are delivered in "polished" finish. That's not any protection at all.

Brass radiators just don't have problems like that.

The Fluidyne has just a 1 year guaranty? Wonder why? Wonder if it will make it 35 years like the brass did?

Decisions, decisions? What's a boy to do?

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Brass radiators just don't have problems like that.

The Fluidyne has just a 1 year guaranty? Wonder why? Wonder if it will make it 35 years like the brass did?

Decisions, decisions? What's a boy to do?

If Weight or Price isn't an issue then you should get Brass. It sounds like Brass is the best fit for what you are looking for. IE: Longevity...

After reading many posts regarding the reliability (or lack there of) of aluminum radiators, I decided to have my radiator recored by the only shop locally that recores radiators these days. Works great in stop-and-go traffic with A/C on in 90+ degree temps and high humidity. I should be good for another 39 years.

Ron
#3336

I looked into having my stock radiator re-cored, and it was $400+. Not cheap, but for longevity, it would probably work fine. I'm not sure how long an aluminum radiator will last, but since many oem radiators are aluminum, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. The radiator shops tell me that the oem aluminum radiators are different than the aftermarket radiators, but I have forgotten how. It seems like it was something to do with the alloy and the design. The radiator shops also recommend a rebuilt stock or brass-type, and don't recommend aftermarket aluminum radiators for street-driven cars. (I admit that they're biased to what they sell) If I'm not driving the car much, there's still corrosion potential, but it's much less than your grocery-getter. I could see how a car like our Panteras that don't see 10k miles per year could be fine with an aluminum radiator.

Aluminum radiators work fine, and there are two basic types: all-welded and partly welded with epoxy seals. Do not use the epoxy ones; tey are unrepairable while the all welded ones can be fixed. There are no secret alloys in OEM rads. The 'reliability' problem stems from corrosive local water in many areas. Corvettes and Z-28s have had aluminum rads since the early '80s and all aluminum engines since the late '90s and those guys have low warranty claims. THey also use sacrificial anodes of zinc or magnesium in their upper tanks. Most Fluidyne rads are now sold with a bottle of No-Rosion to keep your local tap water at bay.
One thing you can check (which is kind of fun), is your Pantera's 'local action'. Take a good VOM, set it on the lowest voltage range and ground one probe while sticking the other in your surge tank's water. A reading of more than 70 millivolts indicates you have what amounts to a small battery in your cooling system chewing away at anything that will dissolve. You desperately need a sacrificial anode, distilled water, No-Rosion or all three! But you'll need a really good VOM; a $9.95 one from Autozone will show nothing.
FWIW, mine shows 40 millivolts with that test and I run an aluminum rad, cylinder heads, waterpump and an oil-to-water heat exchanger with 50% Prestone antifreeze, and change it yearly. All those alloy parts have been in our car approaching 20 years without dissolving. I also have an aluminum engine block that will soon join the other light-alloy parts, with no worries. You just gotta understand what you're dealing with.

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a small battery in your cooling system chewing away at anything that will dissolve.

This is all news to me. If the main switch on the car battery is off, does that help in protecting the alu radiator, or is that unrelated?

I just use 50% water and 50% blue coolant, and hope it'll last forever. It can hold 13lbs for hours.

Mikael,
This type of corrosion is called galvanic corrosion. It occurs when 2 dissimilar metals are present in a conductive solution, like your cooling system. Its a chemical reaction which occurs regardless if the battery is connected or not. As mentioned one method to prevent it is to put in a sacrificial anode, i.e. zinc, which will corrode instead of the aluminum. Another method is to make your coolant system less conductive e.g. use distilled or de-ionized water instead of tap water.

Check this out:

http://www.no-rosion.com/

Mikael, sometimes its related via whats called a 'ground loop'. After getting your 'galvanic battery' evaluated with the VOM, try turning on the ignition and then the headlights with the meter still connected; a change in voltage on the meter indicates a bad ground somewhere, which you can generally isolate by pulling fuses one at a time. This is a separate problem that often shows up as a change in "oil pressure" or "engine temp" when the headlights are switched on. But as I said, it only works with a really good VOM; I use a $350 Fluke meter borrowed from my work. Another way you can sometimes rate your coolant's acidity is with swimming-pool pH paper; it should be above 7.0 for best longevity of light-alloys. But some anti-freezes are dye-colored and mask the change of color on the paper.

Tap water is not universally bad for cooling systems. In the town I formerly lived in we drank well water from the tap which was very hard, I had to use bottled water or RO water in the cooling system, as the tap water would leave a lot of scale and deposits in the cooling system. However, the tap water in Ventura is very low in deposits, I have no reservation about using Ventura's tap water in the cooling system.

The cooling system wants water that will not leave scale and deposits, while at the same time not corrode or pit the metal. Softened water is the best choice according to NoRosion. A softener exchanges positive sodium ions for positive calcium and magnesium ions. I would think that makes softened water an excellent electrolyte, yet Norosion recommends it. NoRosion claims water with a depletion of ions is to be avoided, i.e. double distilled water, de-ionized water, high purity water, ultra-pure water. Of course, the depletion of ions is what makes those types of water poor conductors.

The additives in coolant controls a lot of the problems associated with corrosion, but those additives deplete with age and/or use, therefore the coolant will become corrosive with age and use. This is why the cooling system should be drained and refilled with new coolant every 18 to 24 months unless your coolant treatment specifies otherwise. For instance, Norosion claims if you add their treatment every 12 months you can extend the coolant service interval to 5 years.

-G

I've been using premixed anti-freeze. No more chemicals to worry about in the tap water.

In my experience you can't eliminate galvanic action on aluminum. The thinner it is, the bigger the problem.

The aluminum fins on the a/c condensers here suffer the worst. There seems to be no way to neutralize it and with the rock salt used here in the NE, the stuff grows on the cars even in a sealed garage that never sees salt itself.

The only thing worse that I can imagine would be living right on the beach with a salt water source right there. The salt is going to be in the air.

Zinc is used on galvanized metal here simply to attract the action to it rather then the metal it is protecting, which is usually steel.

There is no way to eliminate the process, just slow it down some.

There is only a one year warranty on the Fluidyne. That alone tells me volumes.

I have an aluminum radiator on my 2002 GMC truck. I had to replace the radiator a couple of years ago. It wasn't the aluminum, it was the plastic end tank the failed. I inlet pipe on the plastic tank cracked.

Why do aluminum tanks on production vehicles have better survival rates? They are driven more, as daily drivers and in general and don't tend to sit.

Here's a a way to lessen the affects of galvanic action - disconnect the battery whenever the car is parked in the garage.

Fluidyne said to ground the radiator. I don't know if they still say that now but if you want to promote galvanic action, giving it a good path to ground is definitely the way to do it. Also, I am told Fluidyne now includes a bottle of Norosion their new radiators. I don't know if it's still true but at least it sounds like they are starting to listen to the complaints. They should probably also fire their tech support.

Regarding the laydown kit, I used one on my car even though I didn't have hood vents since my friend installed a laydown kit on his car without vents either but he had a different aluminum radiator setup. No problems with the set up on my friends car but mine wouldn't cool, even at freeway speeds. Hall has a 45 degree radiator that might work better for me but I can't recall if it's brass or aluminum.

Well... en.ough ramblings from me

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FWIW, mine shows 40 millivolts with that test

I have 30 millivolts, should I just forget about then? Alu rad, heads, water pump.

I found my way here as I was about to post a report on my cooling mods.... It's hot as hell here in Central florida. I drive my car on five or ten mile trips just about every day. Today I drove it ten miles light to light and then 55 miles south to Tampa at 75mph, about six miles light to light to my parents house. I was there about 30 mins and then made the trip back. My car ran at 179 degress the whole way and bumped up to 185 light to light. I have a custom alum rad, single 16" spal, SS tubes, open hood and the swirl tank mods. My a/c was blowing cold the whole way, it's dripping a little but blowing cold as.... Love it!...

I just went through my cooling system, pulled the car out one day and had a nice steam plume coming from the hood, luckily it was just a pin hole.
I decided to go ahead and replace all wear items, waterpump, and thermostat.
1717 is equiped with the Hall Phoenix radiator, stainless tubing, and relocated stainless tanks.
When I pulled the radiator out and took to the shop is when I found out that brass copper radiators and a shop capable to work on them is almost a thing of the past now. I did find a shop who still repairs them, like others who have posted in this thread a recore was going to be in the $400-$500 range. But just the rod out was $240. I went ahead and got a new water pump, Stewart Stage 1, Robert Shaw 180 degree thermostat, the one in the motor was a 160 degree. had to repalce the green stripe hose at the radiator because I had to cut it to remove it from the radiators necks. I also went ahead and got t-bolt clamps to use instead of the worm gear hose clamps.
Before the reinstallation I flushed the entire system, until good clean water was flowing. I also flushed the block while the water pump was off.
I used two gallons of Prestone anti-freeze, and two bottles of Redline Water Wetter. Filled the system started the car checked for leaks and after I made sure everything was burbed I let her sit there and idle for 45 mins. Fans ran as they should and the car never got over 190 degrees!

I bought my'74 in 2003. The FIRST thing I did was replace the radiator (stock radiator was leaking when I bought the car). The PO had installed the Meriah fans in the stock "pusher" brackets. All I did was swap out the radiator. Last year I completed the cooling system upgrade by installing dual Spal 12" fans ("puller configuration") and Pantera Electronics' Radiator Fan Controller. Huge improvement over stock fans (or even Meriahs) and 37-year old RELAYS! I did a "partial lay-down", leaving just enough room for the fans. The Fluidyne has been 100% reliable. If I were changing a stock system, I would do it all at once. While the system is opened, change all of the rubber hoses using high quality silicone or Gates Green Stripe. The dual-fan Flex-A-Lite setup is very good too from what I have heard. Oh..one more thing, make sure you have the correct thermostat for the Pantera..easy to search this forum for the p/n. It's been written up a number of times! Be COOOOOL!

Swen