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Here's my logic.

Consider a stock Pantera with it's marginal cooling system, meaning the engine will rise to a safe and comfortable operating temperature sooner than later. Yes, in low temperatures you may not get heat when you want it, and you may increase engine wear a little, but given the few miles that these cars are driven who cares. I don't drive my car at anything less than about 45 degrees, and rising to optimal operating temperature quickly at anything over about 60 degrees ambient is NEVER a problem. A slightly modified Cleveland putting out more power would put out more heat, thus reaching optimal operating temperature pretty quickly is even more of a sure thing.

The "only thermostat that really works", 333-180 is not available.

Given this scenario, why do I need a thermostat at all? It's just another obstruction.
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1)...first, the thermostats ARE available. Marlin modifies the appropiate base by adding the "hat". yes they are at a premium, but Marlin does have to import acquire the correct bases and machine/install components

2)...just removing the thermostat will result in only a portion of the coolant going to the radiator unless the brass plate is plugged.

3)...with 100% radiator flow, one would expect the temperature NEVER reaching design operating. Being only 10 to 15F less than design results in a significant increase in bearing and piston wall WEAR
Last edited by jfb05177
quote:
2)...just removing the thermostat will result in only a portion of the coolant going to the radiator unless the brass plate is made solid.

Frankly, without the correct thermostat with the hat to seat against the block-off plate in the block, your water pump will NOT generate enough head pressure to move coolant up to the radiator and back. It will merely circulate coolant around the block without forcing it to and through the radiator to be cooled.
...I have Experimented with driving Without a Thermostat, ONCE!!
I use to Drive Cross-Country in the Early '70's...A Lot! Numerous trips between Oakland, California, Chicago, Illinois and Fort Riley, Kansas.
In a '67 Mustang 390 GTA, Cruising at a Sustained 100+ Miles Per Hour.
The Radiator is small in Those Cars, forcing Me to run the Heater and FAN at FULL BLAST, to keep the Engine from Boiling Over. Yes, cooking My feet in the process, But Stayed Stable Just Below the Point of Boiling!
On one of those trips, somewhere on I-80 or I-70, Heading East in Nebraska or Kansas...I got the Brainy Idea to remove the Thermostat. Upon Continuing On My Journey, with-in just a few miles, the Coolant System Immediately BOILED OVER!
I was saved at a Small Garage in the Middle of Nowhere, with a Mechanic who cared enough to help re-Install the Thermostat. I went back on the Highway and Temps Remained 'Stable', on the Edge of Boiling Over, Me sweating in a Sauna, Loving every Minute. Had a Girl in Chi-Town, Made Oakland to Chicago in 22 Hours Flat, on a Different Sojourn! AND...'High-Test' Gasoline was $0.27 Cents a Gallon in Kansas, in 1971!! Believe it or Don't! But That's Another Story!

Back to My Point!
The Physics about Hydro-Thermal-Dynamics, that I was Later made aware of, was...'With-Out the Thermostat in Place, in the Block, The Coolant Circulates THROUGH The Engine Way TOO FAST, and Is NOT Allowed Enough Time to ABSORB the HEAT, and to Deliver That Heat to the Radiator.'

...I am Not here to sell a Thermostat. You'll do what ever You want, But The Thermostat was put there for many good reasons by Engineers who are a Lot Smarter than You or I.

By the way, I DO NOT Import The RobertShaw Thermostats. I Buy the RS 330-180F and 195F here in the USA and I Modify them Into the 333-180F/195F, Far Better than the Original Ever Was!

This week, I Just Shipped My 336th Robertshaw Hi-Flow Thermostat! You should read My Feedback, As A Seller, on Ebay!
Last edited by marlinjack
Here in florida we really don't need to warm the cars up for long, I usually run the car for four minutes or so before leaving.

We have done the washer thing where you change out washers to find the sweet spot.

Really, if you want to do this type thing the easiest way to do it is just rip the articulation out of your thermostat and the restriction will be perfect...
quote:
Originally posted by PLT-1:...rip the articulation out of your thermostat and the restriction will be perfect...



speaking of which but going off on a tangent....

One "measurement" I wish to take would be gag the thermostat wide open and measure the delta pressure accross the radiator from idle to redline with the ultimate to include a gpm flowmeter. then during running, I could monitor the dP/rpm to determine the % the thermostat was open. But that is just wild thinking.
quote:
The "only thermostat that really works", 333-180.....

I don't think even Marlin would agree with that statement. The high-flow 333 version is felt by many to be optimal. But I do not believe it is mandatory for satisfactory operation. YMMV, of course.

The 333-180 is correct for the Cleveland (has the hat) AND it is a high-flow design as the original Ford thermostat was.

You will easily be able to locate a Cleveland-correct (has the hat) thermostat. Locating the high flow Cleveland-correct version is where the trouble starts.

Thus Marlin and his well-needed cottage industry. Smiler

Larry
(1) The original thermostat was not rated at 180 degrees, it was rated at 192 degrees. I was working on these engines back then.

(2) There is a large "Classic Mustang" parts business which basically purchased the entire inventory of the final batch of Robertshaw (Flow Kooler) 351C thermostats. Those thermostats are sitting on the shelves of that Mustang parts business collecting dust. I was told the name of that business, but my memory makes it impossible for me to remember. There are only a few major Classic Mustang parts businesses. It should be easy to figure out which business it is.

(3) Flow Kooler makes a good 351C coolant pump for Pantera owners, because it improves low rpm coolant flow. But in terms of the thermostat, they have let ALL owners of 351C powered vehicles down. ASSHOLES.

(3) The cooling system built into the 351C is not a problem. Mustang & Torino guys don't go through the same drama that Pantera guys go through; with the proper thermostat Mustang & Torino cooling systems perform great! The cooling system built into the 351C was, in fact, advanced for its time. Kinda like the 351C cylinder heads. All cars today are equipped with functionally similar thermostat designs.

(4) The Pantera's cooling system ailments are entrapped air & insufficient coolant flow at low rpm.

(5) Marlin and Scott (SACC Restorations) are among my short list of personal heroes. If you own a 351C powered vehicle (Marlin's thermostat applies), or Pantera (Scott's water pump pulley applies), its in your interest to support those folks. Believe me, there's no profit in this niche market, these guys do it as a labor of love. They both produce these cooling system parts because I talked them into it.

Ray, operating the 351C with no thermostat is a bad idea. At the least replace the brass orifice below the thermostat with a freeze plug thus preventing any coolant from bypassing the radiator. The engine will warm-up very slowly. I hope you'll install the proper thermostat instead.


Debbie & I love all you guys ... no bull, from our hearts.
Last edited by George P
Running no Thermostat is silly, the Thermostat keeps the Engine at its desired operating temperature. Its basic!! If you have overheating issues its not because of the Thermostat (unless its faulty, but then replace it with the correct one) Instead invest in new Radiator, propper Fans incl propper wiring etc. All trapped Air can in my experience only escape the Engine/Heads if you raise the front of the Car up.

Having a 20psi Cap on also ensures that the system is propperly pressurised and raises the potential boiling point as well. I use 100% coolant with no water mixed and NEVER have any trouble under any driving conditions/weather with my 393"

Btw I use one of Marlins Thermostats
quote:
Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
quote:
Originally posted by PLT-1:
Here in florida we really don't need to warm the cars up for long, I usually run the car for four minutes or so before leaving.

We have done the washer thing where you change out washers to find the sweet spot.

Really, if you want to do this type thing the easiest way to do it is just rip the articulation out of your thermostat and the restriction will be perfect...


...That Might Work if you Blocked the By-Pass.
In ANY Climate, you would lose the Benefits of That Function. I Say DO IT! And See for Yourself!


yes the Moroso washer type restrictors work fine in a primitive always open external bypass system but the 351C is not in that category. as described in the link I posted earlier the 351C uses an internal bypass system controlled by the hat feature on the thermostat. remove the thermostat and the control is gone, the bypass is always open and as mentioned always recirculating HOT coolant back through the engine rather than directing it to the radiator

my 'worst case scenario' is if the coolant level goes low, or in a Pantera with an air pocket (same thing) there will not be enough coolant available to force ANY coolant to the radiator. the always open bypass will be fed by gravity and most if not all of the coolant will be stuck in the bypass recirc loop never going to the radiator

supposedly Yes the correct hat type T-stat is currently available from certain local parts chain stores

Yes it's very possible that the counter jockey will present you with the wrong T-stat as the listing info in the computer is corrupted over the decades by un-knowing people that first entered the data from the hard copy catalogs decades ago

one possible way to get the correct T-stat is to specify an intermediate, full size Ford or truck with a 351M or 400 engine, they use the same T-stat but still check to make sure it has the hat feature on the lower side
If your objective is maximun horsepower, then running cooler coolant is desired.

one experanice I had with company car decades back. After having a coolant flush, I notice the temp gauge was running about one divsion lower, but I just keep driving. the oil sample after running that way for a few thousands miles came back the oil was contiminated with fuel and some metals! I check the thermosat and found the oring had been left out. after replacing, temp was back up and following oil samples normal
Yes Marlin Jack the service you provide is certainly convenient, a guy can sit right where I'm at & get the right stuff without getting his hands full of coolant only to find out it's gonna be another road trip, another new unusable part on the shelf or both, and still not be able to obtain the elusive item

No, it doesn't get easier than that

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