Tracking Pantera on Race Track

Good for you for tracking the car. It's nice (and rare) to see people take their cars out, and now it's got "street cred"!

Glad it was fun, and you learned more about your car!

Rocky

Raiden,
I had the same exact experience as you several years ago. I had taken my Pantera up to Sonoma Raceway (or whatever they were calling it at the time, I think Infineon), spun it twice on a wet track, and decided that before I hit a wall (which is nearly everywhere at that track) I was going to retire it from tracking, and certainly never take it out on a wet track. Funny enough, I went to the closest rental car agency and rented a 6 cyl. Mustang that apparently had a governor on it, but it taught me a lot about driving trying to keep the revs up. I had a blast for the rest of the weekend. I've taken my 5.0L Jag XKR to several Hooked on Driving events and really like driving with that group.

Those experiences confirm what we all know about that hunk of heavy Detroit iron behind the driver's seat. Glad nothing was bent.

The month before this, I went to a Shelby sponsored Hooked on Driving track day/car show. I watched while 50-60 Mustangs took to the track. Some were Hertz rentals, some were unmolested street cars (Shelby configured) and some were just outright race cars. All were late model Mustangs. It was fun to watch and they really got around the track, certainly much faster then my 43 year old war horse. But, my Pantera was by far the most admired metal out there.

Sounds like a lot of fun! Great pic of the car too

Guys, Stirling Moss once said that he found going WFO in a slow car far more satisfying than going half-throttle (at the same speed) in a really fast car.
Starting out in a ground-pounder can be bad. Once you can consistently drive the poo out of a slow car, only then is it time to upgrade to a faster ride, because you've developed no bad habits that can be covered up with sheer power or tire width. I believe people who've discovered this is why one of my friends has no trouble renting his three race-prepped Pintos for Lemons enduros, every weekend of the season.

The Cobras have some of the same issues. Mostly the 427's which are the coil spring cars.

If you think of it a Pantera is a rear, mid-engine car. A Cobra is a front, mid-engine car.

The last of the 427 Cobra street cars had the handling ironed out to the point that they were "relatively safe" to sell to the public.

The first group had problems with "snap steer". Just one good bump in the road and the car would make a 90 degree turn.

That's if any 500hp/500ft-lb 2500 pound car would ever really be "safe"?



The Pantera that was offered to the public as a "sports car" had understeer engineered into it at EVERY consideration.

In this great big "free" world that most of us now live in, you can do anything that you want to your car as long as you can get your state to issue at least a "passed safety inspection" sticker.

Now, as soon as you start to change parameters on these cars such as tire/wheel size combinations, ride height alterations, shock and spring combinations NOT to mention putting a 650ft-lb monster in the back, YOU have drastically RE-ENGINEERED THE CAR.

Even the Pantera REAR brakes were purposely UNDER engineered so as to not induce braking oversteer in the car.



Now if you went out of your way to copy as closely as possible a factory Gp4 race car in EVERY consideration, you PROBABLY could get along going pretty fast with the car first time you jumped into it. That's my opinion anyway.

BUT believe it or not, the "ENGINEERS" did a heck of a lot of testing and development on the racecars to basically make them that ALMOST any idiot could get in and go fast in them first time.

All the driver is, is the monkey who pedals the car. As Austin Coyle once said of John Force, "stop blaming loosing on the chief engineer not giving you enough horsepower to win...once in a while the monkey ACTUALLY needs to pedal the car for a win". Shocking I know!



What most of 'US' (including me) have done is re-engineered an extremely sensitive design on so many parameters that the end result under "extreme duress" like even on an open track day can, may and IS unpredictable.

IF you seriously want to go fast on the track then YOU need to get to the track a week before the "race" along with YOUR five man pit crew, several sets of tires with various compounds, several sets of anti-sway bars, and several sets of springs with adjustable shocks.

Run the car there all week day in and day out, mark the braking points on the track,maybe even change brake pad compounds! Best if the track is empty so you need to rent the entire track for the entire week, then MAYBE you are ready to go out on the track in public? Maybe. If you think you are finished spinning the car and flat spotting all of those nice expensive tires? Best to do that in private. Hum?



There are only a few among us that truly know the settings and combinations on THEIR Pantera?
Probably not many are willing to share that information, for a number of reasons including but not limited to liability (you can still get killed out there).

Also I'm not sure if "their" personality profiles would technically qualify them as sane either, but I digress.

Frankly, it's a lot easier (not necessarily easy) to fly an F-15 at Mach 1 then it is to drive a modified Pantera fast on a closed track. A modified Pantera is likely very dangerous and unpredictable. It's low so it doesn't roll over that easy but best to use a trussed roll bar and the roll over check valve for the fuel tank.

I'm not even sure I have the rebound setting right on the shocks? That nose comes up way to easy over the cordaroys in the road for my liking. I keep thinking, get down, get down, get down.

A box stock 71? That's another story, skinny tires and all. I know what that car is going to do. I KNOW how fast I can go though a corkscrew...maybe?


Bosswrech thinks it would be a good idea to drive my car in the Silver State? I think he needs to think more seriously about that though?

I only run 8 & 10 inch Campis. Those in effect are a limiting device of sorts. After all "a man has got to know his limitations". You need to know the cars also.

Would anyone consider lending me their COMPLETELY stock '71 on track day? It's probably the safest of the bunch?

quote:

Originally posted by Raiden:
Tracked my Pantera at the Homestead-Miami Speedway, with organization called "Hooked on Driving" where they train you to drive better (and maybe learn about racing, driving lines, car dynamics and proper braking. I learned that even if your tires look new, that if they are 8 years old, they probably need to be replaced. During the second 15 minute session, I spun out at 40 mph accelerating out of a tight corner. The second spin out was at about 80 mph, accelerating onto the straightway, coming out of a shallow corner, but hitting the apron of the bank. Retired the car at that point, rather than put it into a wall or worse rash into someone else. Guess I will go out and buy new tires and maybe a new Mustang for tracking. In meantime Pantera is now regulated to static shows only.

Those walls can do a lot more than just bend up your car. They can hurt you really bad or worse. I certainly respect them when I track my Pantera.

Took my Pantera to Mosport last year with the Ferrari club. It made my 328 seam like a shopping cart.
Did four 15 minute sesions.Never spun out, I continually did 130 mph down the back straight and could have gone faster with more seat time. Only problem was fitting in the car with my Helmut. It was the most popular car that day.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt W:
Took my Pantera to Mosport last year with the Ferrari club. It made my 328 seam like a shopping cart.
Did four 15 minute sesions.Never spun out, I continually did 130 mph down the back straight and could have gone faster with more seat time. Only problem was fitting in the car with my Helmut. It was the most popular car that day.

Yes, the Pantera needs a Gurney bubble for the helmet.

With my power seat arrangement and lowered floor pans I have the ability to sit lower with the helmet on BUT my eyebrows seem even with the top of the dash and I wind up peaking over!

Kinda' like this.

I have to remove my head rest and move the seat forward till I get acquit head room. Tight but manageable. I have stock seats.

Matt, if you have early seats, its quite easy to slot the seat backstay straps and thus make stock seats rake-adjustable- within limits anyway. I'm 6'2" and drove with a helmet for years without bubbling the roof. When my 5'3" wife drives, I adjust the seat rake more upright for her. This can be done while underway too.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
The Cobras have some of the same issues. Mostly the 427's which are the coil spring cars.

If you think of it a Pantera is a rear, mid-engine car. A Cobra is a front, mid-engine car.

The last of the 427 Cobra street cars had the handling ironed out to the point that they were "relatively safe" to sell to the public.

The first group had problems with "snap steer". Just one good bump in the road and the car would make a 90 degree turn.

That's if any 500hp/500ft-lb 2500 pound car would ever really be "safe"?
<snip> .......
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...131048066#6131048066

Doug, I always enjoy reading your posts and this is one of the best!!

quote:

Originally posted by rbarkley671:

Doug, I always enjoy reading your posts and this is one of the best!![/QUOTE]

Thank you Richard. I hope you get the intention? Something to think about isn't it?

Did "we" really know what we were doing when we modified the car?


...something about "the meek shall inherit the earth?" Hum?

More Pictures of tracking my Pantera.

Note, instructor was 6'2" and had a difficult time getting in, but once in had just enough room. He seems to be puckering up a bit though.

Car looks tiny when wearing a helmut.

Fun day.

Wish I had the video camera running. Oh well, next time. I did hit about 125 on the final straight.

Your car certainly looks beautiful out there. I'm also about 6'-2" and everytime I wear a helmet at the track, I have to tilt my head at a 45* angle. Can't see the speedo or tach, and have a stiff neck for a week, but still fun.

Hey Boss - got a photo of what you did back there?

Being just on 6'3 I'm tapping out without a helmet on and lke the idea of raking the seat back to fit a helmet into the picture for future without serious mods to the car at least in the short term.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Matt, if you have early seats, its quite easy to slot the seat backstay straps and thus make stock seats rake-adjustable- within limits anyway. I'm 6'2" and drove with a helmet for years without bubbling the roof. When my 5'3" wife drives, I adjust the seat rake more upright for her. This can be done while underway too.

With stock floor pans and seats for the driver it is really tough to fit with a helmet over a certain size. Somewhere over 6 foot and 200 pounds is about where it starts.

I think the original concept of the cabin was for a European soccer player or a jockey? A retired one that had grown to 150 pounds works but not too short. Maybe 5'6" so you can still reach the pedals?

You CAN just take the bolts out of the straps on the back of the early seats and that will allow you to adjust the seat with a rake to the back but that does push the bottom of the seat forward.

You would then need to make a decision on either to cut a hole in the inner front fender so you have a place for your left foot, or remove the steering wheel entirely so there is a place for your knees. There is also going to be an issue with your right leg not bending in the right place to operate the throttle.

A hand control might work at this point also?


Now that's just the driver. As far as fitting the instructor into the passenger seat, it is possible if that instructor has had their left kidney removed and there is a void in their back?


Yes there are people who can successfully fit with a helmet into the car that are over six feet tall. You can identify them on the street by the obvious deformities and alterations to their bodies.

The driver is going to have their left leg amputated to just under the knee. I suppose if they are ingenious enough they will have a detachable device that is modified to the car?

The instructor will likely be bent over, twisted to the side and unable to stand erect. Probably walk with a cane? They probably will seem to be smiling but I think it is a grimace from the pain.


The more logical people who own Panteras most likely would have taken engineering measures to lower the floor pans and make the bulkhead flush. Of course if you are a midget there could be other issues like not being able to reach the pedals but who knows for sure?

Another possible solution is to have a custom helmet made to fit the cabin of the Pantera? How you would get a Snell number on it though I don't know.

With the stock configuration you should also consider moving the driver seat to center it better to the steering and pedals. As built, the thing is off to one side.