USING MUSTANG ROTORS

Larry I trust you will photograph every step of the way? Pictures are perfect for me since I can not read a word.

Gotta do the rears too. I gotta see that one. The vented rotors should be worth the effort I would think.

I can't wait. How soon can you get started? In case you haven't noticed, it's already winter.

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In case you haven't noticed, it's already winter.

Yeah, yeah....

I DO plan on full documentation of this. It will make a good POCA newsletter article, a good Panteraplace item, and good for posting here.

Will likely tackle the rears first,as I want to install my Wilkinson stub axles and new bearings. No timetable yet, though.

Rear should go pretty smooth as I already have Quella's tapered bearing conversion so it should just be remove parts (No 700 pounds of torque on a tapered conversion), press out wheel studs, modify calipers?, install.

Yea, that's it. Should have both sides done some morning before lunch.

BWAAAHAHAHA

Larry

Are these vented rotors the correct width to fit the OEM rear calipers?

Maybe not so applicable in your case Larry with the easily dismantled tapered bearing conversion, but for others with stock bearings why not move to a more modern rendition and move the hats outboard so that you don't have to strip the carrier/axles to replace a rotor. Aftermarket rotors and hats are relatively cheap, the cost in brake kits is the calipers.

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Are these vented rotors the correct width to fit the OEM rear calipers?

Yes, so close as to not be an issue.

Larry

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for others with stock bearings why not move to a more modern rendition and move the hats outboard so that you don't have to strip the carrier/axles to replace a rotor.

Well, my thought is for owners that are willing to go for a low-buck swap like this, their priorities are probably cost first, future ease of replacement later?

Going to new hats with rotors on the outside is a great upgrade in terms of future rotor replacement, whether you keep stock calipers or upgrade them, too. But those new Mustang rotors are going to last on a street Pantera rear for how long? 30-50,000 miles? Why incur the expense (to get easily replaced rotors) for something that you won't be revisiting for many years?

And the stock rebuilt brakes, SS hoses and good Porterfield R4S pads have given lots of owners very good braking with stock everything.

To get far enough to do a hat/rotor swap, you've already taken everything apart. At that point, you just put everything back together with the Mustang rotors and total expense is about $150 plus some machine shop press costs. Can you get two hats and rotors for near that cost?

Larry

No not for $150 total, maybe for $150 a side using Wilwood parts.

In many cases going to the effort of stripping hub carrier/axle is going to result in replacing bearings, new axle nuts, maybe also axles in some cases. I suspect many owners would have this done at a vendor due to the torque specs invloved (that is a $350 a side cost), then it's worth consideration.

If you decide to upgrade calipers at a later date then you are ahead of the game. Just a thought.

Julian

Now , Now, Calm down fellas !! we can all play in this big pool !!
Not that I drive my pantera hard ( I am bit of a wimpy driver !!) are the brake discs an issue ? or is it for track days ? As mine seem ok, but when they wear out I may upgrade to vented discs if i can.
Being from 'down under' we have to make everything fit !! It's scary when people are saying I am the pantera expert !! Shows how little information we have on these beatiful cars !Lucky I am a hot rodder!!

Ladies, must we have a hissy fit over this? I for one am still running 15" wheels. It kind of limits the possibilities.

I have sleepy 300 horse car and my stock brakes work great...

Here my ongoing nightmare experience with the Wagner rotors:

I purchased a set of the Wagner BD60209 rotors twice. The first time they came in as a one piece rotor. The second time they were two piece but the disc was .91" thick. The stock Pantera rotor is .81 thick. The .91" rotors are too thick and the caliper will not fit on them. So I called Wagners tech line and they said the 60209 is for a'68 Mustang. He said the BD60208 were the right ones. They are a two piece seperate hub and rotor and the disc is .81" thick. So I ordered those. They came in .81" thick but one piece and made in China. I won't put cheap ass made in China rotors on my car, so they got returned.

My parts guy said he located some BD60208 rotor discs only (no hub) so I have those ordered and I am going to see if I can get the Pantera hub to fit on them. It looks like I may have to widen the center hole on the Wagner disc to fit the Pantera hub, but I won't know until they come in for sure. Of course this way I can use my original detomaso lug nuts. I had to special order these so this time they are mine and not returnable. Hopefully they are right.

Today I found a company who sells Disc-Italia brand rotors and they suposedly have sloted or sloted and drilled rotors only (no hub)for the '66 Mustang. I think they were like $240/pair plus shipping. If the Wagners don't work out I will pursue these, but I will not order unless I can talk to someone who has one in his hand and can describe them and give me dimensions. But I will let everyone know what I found out either way.

I would strongly recomend that you don't order the Wagner brand rotors because you don't know what you are going to get. You may get the good two piece, but more than likely your going to get the cheap Chinese ones. You are better off going with a better quality American brand like Stainless Steel Brakes or EBC from England

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better quality American brand like Stainless Steel Brakes or EBC from England

I apologize for getting this thing started. Based on what I had been told from one who had been there, done that,I was pretty sure my info was valid.

This has been kicked around a LOT on the POCA forum, and experiences have been all across the board.

I do know the SSBC units are one piece; I strongly suspect they are made in China. They will work, are the correct thickness but will require front lug nuts to be switched to SAE. They will also need a new dust cover to match what came on the Mustang.

I have a Quella conversion to Wilwood Super Lites using stock Pantera rotors. In my case, the calipers are for a thicker rotor, and to make them work on the thinner Pantera rotor there is a metal spacer plate behind one of my brake pads - this was Dennis' solution, not mine. For me, and any others with similar conversions, IF the Wagner rotors are too thick, I intend to mill / fabricate a thinner set of spacer plates to solve the problem.

Again for those of you who have been playing buy/return/buy roulette, I'm sorry.

My intent was to provide info on an easily sourced, replacement rotor for those with stock systems. Didn't quite work out that way.

Larry

OK. Larry. What is the application for the part number you specified? Is it a '66 Mustang or a '68? Everyone is talking sideways here.

Go with the '66 Mustang rotors they will fit fine but you must use SAE lug nuts. The 68's are the exact same dimensions all around but the rotor is thicker and will not fit stock Pantera calipers.

Ian

Why do you need to change the studs? Are the holes in the Mustang rotors larger then the Pantera's?

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Are the holes in the Mustang rotors larger then the Pantera's?

Yes, so I've been told.

Larry

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The 68's are the exact same dimensions all around but the rotor is thicker and will not fit stock Pantera calipers.

Correct, so I've been told.

Larry

yes, the Pantera studs are slightly smaller and will not fit into the Mustang rotor. Also the Paantera studs are made for a two piece rotor and they wouldn't work anyway. I will try to post some pics of what I have later tonight.

Ian

Okay I know I've said it before, but why wouldn't you purchase a set of Wilwood hats and rotors? With all the uncertainty of the Mustang units, then added cost of replacing studs etc. you've almost bought yourself a set of Wilwoods, hats are around $100 and rotors $80 and it's a bolt on upgrade.

In your case Larry it'd be pretty crazy not to match the Wilwood calipers with a decent set of rotors. I can't understand why Dennis didn't do it originally.

Just my 2 cents,
Julian

Well maybe this is a good place to determine all of this. I'm still on my original rotor and brake calipers. I'm collecting information here that will help me know what to do when it is time.

I would make one comment on the Wilwood vs the Mustang. The Mustang is not likely to be the flash in the pan in ten years.

Ok, I posted some pictures of the two rotors and the two different wheel studs on this forum. Heres a direct link. http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1510042044/m/8480044095

If I am understanding this correctly the Pantera studs are too large in diameter for the Mustang rotors.

I personally have no problem using the Mustang studs BUT I would look to honing the Mustang rotor holes out to the Pantera dimensions. That's something that I can do and therefore it is fun and cheap AND I'll be able to get rotors for ever.

Now I just need to find a metric hone of the correct dimension. I'll bet it's 14mm.

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If I am understanding this correctly the Pantera studs are too large in diameter for the Mustang rotors.

No.

Other way around.

Knock out the Mustang SAE studs and the Pantera studs are too small. Welding steel studs to cast iron hub is a tricky weld.

And if they break, you then have a spinning lug nut and a bitch of time getting that wheel of.

Larry

OK. How many hole patterns do the Wilwood hats come with? A bunch correct? Why not just redrill the Mustand rotors to the Pantera stud size?

So what if it has an extra set of holes in it?

What is the deal with this set up? I know it is not stock. I have seen them on other Panteras so they must be a vendor option. I was able to get a smaller Willwood caliper and a thinner rotor, bolt the rotor to the other side of the top had and move the whole thing further inside the front rim. Offset is actually pretty close and will help with scrub radius.

forgot photo:

I don't see a Wilwood set up that would work with stock 15" wheels and stock calipers. You need a 11" rotor that is .81" thick and they have that, but the only matching hat for that rotor is a four lug hat. If you went up to a 13" rotor you could get the right hat but it won't fit with 15" Campys. Let me know if I am wrong.

Pantera Doug..........The Pantera studs are too SMALL for the mustang rotors not too big. Please see the pictures I posted.

Ian

Mine not only fit in the 15" rim but with the smaller Willwood caliper (same size piston) and thinner rotor I am able to move the rotor to the other side of the top (getting it further in giving me about a 1" deeper mount) and remove the spacer all together. I am using group5 wheels though. I will need to make a new brake caliper mount but that's not a big deal.

I will post some in another thread when I get a chance. I maybe hijacking his thread here a bit.

Pantera Doug,
I re-read your post and see what your saying now (oops!) I suppose that could be done..........

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I don't see a Wilwood set up that would work with stock 15" wheels and stock calipers. You need a 11" rotor that is .81" thick and they have that, but the only matching hat for that rotor is a four lug hat. If you went up to a 13" rotor you could get the right hat but it won't fit with 15" Campys. Let me know if I am wrong.

Sorry I was stressing a point and not specific enough. The Wilwood hat to use is the 170-0635 and Coleman make an 11.75 x 0.81 rotor (vented or solid) with the matching 8 x 7.62 bolt pattern.

Julian

Wilwood Part no#s for 15" wheels. This originally came from someone in the forum.
Some part no#s have been superceded.

Left front: caliper EG 120 31 91

rotor 160 38 73

hat AG 170-0635

Right front: caliper EG 120 31 91

rotor 160 38 72

hat as above

Left rear: caliper AG 120 31 93

rotor 160 29 01

hat GG 170 0635

Right rear: caliper AG 120 31 93

rotor 160 29 00

hat as above

I want to bump this to the top for some updating.

The Wagner #60209 Mustang vented rotor I initially posed to this thread was a number given to me by someone who said that item had worked seamlessly for his conversions, both front and rear.

I have come to the conclusion that number was provided in (an honest) error.

That Mustang vented rotor is for '68-69 cars. It is .94 in thickness. Panteras came stock with solid rotors measuring .81 in thickness.

My car has Wilwood Super Lite calipers, adapted by Quella. I was NOT able to use the thicker rotors on my car at either the front or rear.

My guess is Panteras with stock calipers will also have a no-fit issue with the 60209 rotor.

I now have four of them that will be showing up on eBay in the coming weeks. Sigh....

What DOES work on the front is the 65-67 Mustang rotors. This is Wagner # 60208. The Stainless Steel Brake Corporation (SSBC) 65-67 Mustang rotor/hub combo (a one-piece casting) has been used by several owners ON THE FRONT and it is the same as the 60208. The bearings are the same but you will have SAE (not metric) lug threads and the stock Pantera dust cap will have to be replaced with a Mustang unit.

I have just found a 65-67 vented rotor ONLY (no hub) part number. I have two of them in the garage. I have installed them on the rear stub axles and they are a direct plug-n-play swap (uses stock metric studs) for the original solid De Tomaso rotors. They are however about 5/16" smaller diameter, which means the outer edges of the pads are beyond the edge of the rotor. I know that is not ideal, but do not think it is a problem?

Can anyone comment on that point?

That now gives me vented rotors on the rear for a total cost of less than $125.

I suspect they will likewise be a direct swap on the front De Tomaso hub/hat, but I'm not saying that until I actually do the fitment.

I wish for the sake of real comparison, that 2511 still had stock calipers. Because anything I observe is only for the circa '95 Wilwood conversion Quealla did in-house for a PO's full restoration on 2511.

I'm still gathering information on this from other owners and do intend to get it all down with text and photos when finally finished.

Just thought I'd update to this point.

And again, I'm seeking thoughts on the smaller rotor diameter and how that might be okay/not okay.

Larry

Larry,

Do your aftermarket Wilwood calipers use a caliper mounting adapter? If so you could modify that to move the calipers toward the spindle centerline.

Personally I would not run with the pad/rotor scenario you suggest, the pads will ridge, probably round over the edge of the rotor and at worst dig in and lock up a wheel.

I understand 'thrifty' but all this faffing around and you could have bought a decent set of rotors and hats by now a couple times over. When you already have aftermarket calipers & wheels why keep beating yourself over the head?

Julian

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Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
[QUOTE]Do your aftermarket Wilwood calipers use a caliper mounting adapter? If so you could modify that to move the calipers toward the spindle centerline.

For complicated reasons, modifying the existing adapters will not work. I will study the option of wholly new adapters, but am doubtful.

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When you already have aftermarket calipers & wheels why keep beating yourself over the head?

Because my mind is befuddled with liberal, communist, socialist propaganda?

Seriously, there are many owners who do not want or can not afford to go the hat/rotor/adapter/wheels $olution.

As genuine replacement De Tomaso rotors are no doubt rare and priced accordingly, it seems a more affordable solution is a goal worth pursuing. I'm getting closer to doing that, and want to see this through to the end.

Perhaps next Winter, after selling enough GRP 4 tail lights, I'll just toss the whole shebang and go the full route as you suggest.

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the pads will ridge, probably round over the edge of the rotor and at worst dig in and lock up a wheel.

Yup, same thought I had. I have talked with two owners who also found they had an overhang issue. They just let it be and have not found it to be a problem.

Does anyone know if all four stock rotors were all the same .81 thickness? Where they all the same diameter? I've been told the fronts were thicker and the rears a little larger diameter, but my source said he may have been suffering from CRS syndrome.

Larry

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Does anyone know if all four stock rotors were all the same .81 thickness? Where they all the same diameter? I've been told the fronts were thicker and the rears a little larger diameter, but my source said he may have been suffering from CRS syndrome.

Just looked at the stock rotors I pulled from #7024, one pair 11.1" dia. the other 11.7" dia, both 0.81" thick. I don't know which are front or rears now, but would have expected front to be larger.

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Seriously, there are many owners who do not want or can not afford to go the hat/rotor/adapter/wheels $olution.

Then you should be commended for carrying their burden and I'm not going to let politics slip into this thread any further....it's not in the 'Pub'

Julian

Larry, to answer some questions, using slightly smaller rotors in the back will not be a problem, except for the maintenence issue of the outer edge of the rotor grinding a notch in the edge of rear brake pads. This is especially true if you're still using the toy-sized stock rear brake calipers because pad area is very small.
For those with too-wide Mustang rotors, why not cut down the pad thicknesss? Sure, the pads will wear out faster but you've saved so much over aftermarket Pantera rotors, you should still be financially ahead after a few years. The rotors could be cut down in width, too.
Stock '71-74 Pantera front rotors were about 1/4" smaller than the rears. Don't have the exact diameters available- something like 285mm and 297mm as a guess.
Finally, in mounting bone-stock Mustang rotors in the rear: was this done to the outside of the axle flange? If so, that pushes the wheel outboard by the thickness of the rotor's flange, and there are aftermarket wheel combinations that will then have fender clearance issues.
All rotor-swappers: keep in mind that a ventillated 0.81" or 0.94" thick rotor, on either end, will lighten your Pantera's unsprung weight, and will stabilize at maybe-150F degree lower temperatures, in street and light competition. Brake fade may be eliminated under these conditions. But for long, hard open-track events or possibly ORRs, rotors less than 1" wide WILL warp. Gr-4, GT-5 & -5-S cars used 1.25" thick vented rotors that're heavier than the stock 0.82"-thick solid rotors on '71-74 Panteras. Thermal mass is more important in competition than ultralight-weight rotors.

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I don't know which are front or rears now, but would have expected front to be larger.

I would, also.

BUT, I have been told the rears are the larger pieces.

Any other owners with info to add here?

Larry

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Finally, in mounting bone-stock Mustang rotors in the rear: was this done to the outside of the axle flange?

No, this swap duplicates the stock configuration and uses the stock metric studs.

Larry