What are the basic things to look for

A good place to start is right here.

Thanks for moving the thread to the right place, yes I was 12 when they came out in '71, it'll be 38 years gone by before I act,

so when someone does a "bare metal" or rotisserie resto, other than repairs, are there precautionary measures taken to forestall future oxidation of the then inferior metallurgy, or does the process of rust starts all over again, with the only recourse is not driving and exposing the car to moist and salty surroundings

I'm in the same boat, as I've been lurking around this forum since May or so...

I will be in the market to buy one come this time next year, but I don't know how easy it is to come by a solid push button that isn't over 70K (im looking to spend 65K max).

All in all, hands down one of the best looking cars ever made...

hey these cars are always traded around, massaged and resold, and with the market soft i think there are deals out there

Check out my "How to Buy" page:
http://www.banzairunnerpantera.com/how_to_buy.htm

And join the clubs - POCA and PI. More cars change hands without ever being advertised than you would expect, merely because someone knows someone who is "thinking" of selling and a deal is struck. These also tend to be "known" cars so there's much less risk to the buyer.

thanks! lots of effort in all those pages

Off the top of my head, I would make sure that any car you look at has NO RUST whatsoever. If there are any signs of tinworm, the stuff hidden in the compartments will be unbelievable. Get a car with the best body you can afford as this is by far the most expensive part of the car to get correct. Also, I am from the Midwest and it can get really humid here. The differing humidity and temperature in the summer puts condensation on the inside of the untreated sheetmetal, so summers are worse on the cars than winters (if you do not drive them in salted roads and just leave the cars sit). Monocoque cars in the midwest will rust from the inside out if left untreated in the humidity and temperature changes, even without running on salty roads in winter.

For this reason, the car will be rustproofed with that yellow Wurth rustproofing product. This is the same stuff that Mercedes and BMW uses to coat the inaccessible areas that are either welded or non paintable in the monocoque.

Engine rebuilds are cheap compared to getting bodywork correct -- the same can be said of interiors and transaxles. These are all expensive, but to get a body correct takes the "most money of them all...."

Best of luck in finding a good car -- there seems to be a lot out there, so you'll have lots to pick from -- and you should look at a lot of them so you get intimately familiar with them so you can make an informed decision.

thanks for your insight on how geography can create differing incubation scenarios for the insideous rusting, i pay attention to the body and frame more than anything else, but i think if it's ( body) that clean, everything else could be in order

what is the general opinion as to the desireability of original low mileage cars represented as no rust and with a trained eye reveals no or neglegible(if that exists)rusting vs. verifiable bare metal resto.
are they the same or should one shoot for the redo?

Trick question. Here's a trick answer. The older car with absolutely no rust through the paint or undercoating would be my choice. Here's why this could be true. The newer redo was done 6 months ago -- underlying problems will not surface in paint for up to three to five years (i.e. a bad paint job that was not neutralized will have paint bubbling sooner or later). I have had an experience with this and it was a total paint redo on a bare metal restoration. And this was on a rotisserie and blasted to bare metal. Very bad for me; but I really liked the car so it was done with another paint/body man that I trusted -- that was 10 years ago and there have been no paint issues with the car.

Best of luck & have fun.

I would like to strongly echo DeMopuar's advice.

When I was shopping for a car, the primary criteria was a rust-free body. After a thorough going through, there should be no visible rust. Of greatest concern is rust at or near the lap joints. As such, my first choice was a car that had ORIGINAL paint - that is the one I bought. I may have paid a little more than I should have in 1990. But, after 18 years of ownership, I am happy with that decision. I passed on many beautifully repainted cars. However, as the years go by, cars in original paint and rust free are harder to come by - but from my point of view, I would pay the extra and get that type of car.

After the body, the second item to check is the ZF transaxle. A basic rebuild (just syncros) for example, could be $3.5K-$6K depending on how the associated gear centres are worn. I think a new ZF is $11.5K.

Finally, I never pay attention to the km/mileage of the vehicle. Mileage statements politely go in one of my ears and immediately out the other. It takes all but a few minutes to disconnect the speedometer/odometer. Moreover, a DeT technical bulletin explains how, in a straight-forward manner, to turn back the odometer. I have read examples of cars for sale, that have admitted that the odometer had been turned back after their "restoration".

As DeMopuar wrote, a clean body, then aside from the ZF, mechanically, the car is relatively inexpensive to maintain or repair.

HTH

hi splittin lanes

i owne #5603 a 73 pantera might be what your looking for.am in the L.A area.

e-mail me at russell.sena@sbcglobal.net

russ.

hey,splittin lanes

Correction on car no. its #5606

gentleman,

as somewhat of a extremely smalltime wannabe hodrod guy going back to the days when van nuys boulvard was one hell-of-a good time on weds nights; smallbock fords really did it for me,or anything with a v8, heck everything had a v8 back then.

obviously some of the appeal to these beauts is the mechanical simplicity of those years gone by; the venerable 351c powerplant sittin where most don't or ever will.

from what i have been reading over the years; is the italian factory let these things go to market before adequate r and d where implemented, and while all the pieces were there, these were not optimized as to function and safety, including the gussetting of the frame which was initially left to stroppe.

since untouched cars had welds that were bad, frames not properly reinforced, rustproffing virtually nil, and ideally are to be kept in that state in perpetuity, since originality is revered for these molestation-free copies.

these issues will never be addressed, and you say due to whatever storage, geographical,unfathomable or miraculous reason, they have been spare the ravages of oxidation, that should wrech havoc on an any illprepped, ill equipped original De Tomaso.

anyone attempting a bare metal approach is not lacking the time, vision,fortitude and bread, to see this undertaking through in the most highly advanced, including technology, in the deployment of the then best chemistry and workmanship, haste, ignorance and anything less could turn this into an excercise in futilly.

so in summation to your notion is that in regards of all things represented by the seller; the buyer should assign a clean bill of health after the visual, and in the case of a resto'ed car, only if enough time has elapsed prooffing the bodywork.

this could save me some time,but could one blister on a resto or anycar for that matter mean instint disqualification?, and indicate extreme exposure, flawed preparations or both; if the culprit is extreme exposure and taking the car out of this eviroment would arrest any further degradation, or is the march on; (the non-abatable cancer sickening the car).

and conversely, are rustfree original cars kept is such and ideal state of pamper and parking when extrication from this in any degree would mean the kiss of death.

resto'd car comes with it the peace of mind a stronger, healthier,skeleton, assuring better handling,and power accomadations, or is this not the case?

I have never driven, be have ridden it these, just once, is it enough of a car never to have seen another gusset?

Pantera value is real simple. A rust free car, if it really is rust free and can be proven is worth over 50K. If a Pantera has any rust at all it is worth less. In other words you have to pay someone to take it. Usualy to the scrap metal yard. Other than that it is worth the price of the transmission, usually about eight grand give or take. Cleveland engines are about three hundred bucks or so and parts are only worth something if you sell them as Ferrari, Lambo or Alpha parts. No one talks down Panteras values near as much as the owners themselves who are always saying that their fellow Pantera owners are asking too much for their cars.

my guess is that, knowledgable buyers who do their homework, suppress the prices and end up being owners who "got a good deal" and that is their reference point, further depressing the market,

the Pantera is not for everybody and those bodys that do don't wanna pay, have you seen some prices of some vintage mustangs lately?

might as well get a Pantera

Rule 1. All Italian cars from 71-74 have rust.
Rule 2. Most any muscle car from the same era also has rust.
Rule 3. Refer to rule #1.

Seriously, buy the cleanest straightest most rust-free car you can afford. Many claim to be rust-free, but I've heard it argued that there's no such thing in Pantera-land, or any other Italian from the early 70's for that matter. So, a properly restored car may be better in this regard, if you can afford it, AND if the owner exercised GOOD judgement when making upgrades/improvements.

When I was searching for my car, I found more than a few that were advertised with lots of upgrades/improvements (and were priced accordingly) however most were not done in good taste or at least not to my tastes, in which case I would have needed to spend more money to undo the seller's questionable upgrades.

Therefore, I wanted a clean original car so I knew what I was starting with since my budget didn't allow for a completely and properly restored bare-metal glass-out repainted car. Most of the "upgraded" or "restored" cars in my price range were bastardized. A clean mostly original Pantera gave me a solid foundation for what I wanted and meant that I didn't have to undo some knuckleheaded modifications.

YMMV!
Garth

quote:

Originally posted by Splittin'lanes1:
my guess is that, knowledgable buyers who do their homework, suppress the prices and end up being owners who "got a good deal" and that is their reference point, further depressing the market,

the Pantera is not for everybody and those bodys that do don't wanna pay, have you seen some prices of some vintage mustangs lately?

might as well get a Pantera

9% of CA homeowners are in forelcosure or late on their mortgage payment.

Conventional wisdom would make me believe that this would cause the current low resale value of Panteras because of the limited pool of buyers.

quote:

Originally posted by four walling:

quote:

Originally posted by Splittin'lanes1:
my guess is that, knowledgable buyers who do their homework, suppress the prices and end up being owners who "got a good deal" and that is their reference point, further depressing the market,

the Pantera is not for everybody and those bodys that do don't wanna pay, have you seen some prices of some vintage mustangs lately?

might as well get a Pantera

9% of CA homeowners are in forelcosure or late on their mortgage payment.

Conventional wisdom would make me believe that this would cause the current low resale value of Panteras because of the limited pool of buyers.

i concur, but, ca is not the only state affected by the constriction of wealth, as i indicated before, the market is soft and subscribing to the notion that fossil fuels are at below 50 percent globally the writing is on the wall for mortorsports in general.

i wonder when we get to dire straits with gas what affects will it have on gdp, in other words how much does the motorsport contribute to the economy nationally and world wide?

Subject to verification of the claims ... This is the type of car I would seriously consider if I was shopping for a DeT Pantera.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Pantera-72_W...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

HTH

now that i think about things, too much has to be done to the originals to make it the car it should be, it was close in the beginning, but no cigars, aside of the purchase price countless amounts would need to rework plenty.

zero feedbacks, odd to see L bumpers on a pre L in 1972, hmmmm...

ebay 7 day acutions, don't give you much time to verify before commitment, nonetheless, if the highest bidder even ends up paying.

all in all glad to see a survivor intact

quote:

Originally posted by andriyko:
Subject to verification of the claims ... This is the type of car I would seriously consider if I was shopping for a DeT Pantera.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Pantera-72_W...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

HTH

This car was bid to $53655 on September 5th and was a no sale because it did not meet the reserve.

As of this post, the current high bid is $43100.

quote:

Originally posted by four walling:

quote:

Originally posted by andriyko:
Subject to verification of the claims ... This is the type of car I would seriously consider if I was shopping for a DeT Pantera.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Pantera-72_W...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

HTH

This car was bid to $53655 on September 5th and was a no sale because it did not meet the reserve.

As of this post, the current high bid is $43100.

people tend to fool around on ebay if they know the reserve is sky high,heck i may even bid on it just to make the ones who want it pay more,and now that ebay will allow up to 4 ebay motors auto listing per year free,you'll see more "test the waters type" listings

can't rule out one of his friends shell bidding, all i can say is this guy is off the mark and should be glad to get 35k-37k.

Splittin 'lanes1

I was thinking the same thing with the bumpers. L style bumpers with a 2 pod dash. I guess I dont know Panteras as well as I thought. I have a 74 and wanted exactly what you are looking for. I looked for 30 years. I wanted one that was not hacked up. I finally found one that was pretty much stock. I did the usual MSD, Fluidyne etc. but nothing to the appearance of the car. I get sooooo many compliments on the car by LEAVING IT STOCK... The engine however is not, but the numbers match. I was a bit confused by DeTom's comment "If a Pantera has any rust at all it is worth less" mine has a couple of bubbles at the drivers window base but when I rebuilt the engine and took out the gas tank I expected to find rust but I was able to install the original rubber mounts because every thing was still puuuurrrrfect, even the under side which I saw when I replaced the tubes. There is no way I would scrap my car and save the ZF just because a little rust. My paint is still very good but I know I have to fix the one rust spot I have so it does not get worse. I'm rambling. Good luck on your search and I hope you find the one you want. It's a unbelievable feeling to own a Pantera....

quote:

Originally posted by 74LQQKR:
Splittin 'lanes1

I was thinking the same thing with the bumpers. L style bumpers with a 2 pod dash. I guess I dont know Panteras as well as I thought. I have a 74 and wanted exactly what you are looking for. I looked for 30 years. I wanted one that was not hacked up. I finally found one that was pretty much stock. I did the usual MSD, Fluidyne etc. but nothing to the appearance of the car. I get sooooo many compliments on the car by LEAVING IT STOCK... The engine however is not, but the numbers match. I was a bit confused by DeTom's comment "If a Pantera has any rust at all it is worth less" mine has a couple of bubbles at the drivers window base but when I rebuilt the engine and took out the gas tank I expected to find rust but I was able to install the original rubber mounts because every thing was still puuuurrrrfect, even the under side which I saw when I replaced the tubes. There is no way I would scrap my car and save the ZF just because a little rust. My paint is still very good but I know I have to fix the one rust spot I have so it does not get worse. I'm rambling. Good luck on your search and I hope you find the one you want. It's a unbelievable feeling to own a Pantera....

What I meant was if you had rust, no potential newbie could buy it because all of us supersmart Pantera owners would tell him not to, Pantera owners wouldn't risk having to do extensive repairs. In other words, if you have rust you can't sell your car at all. It is almost illegal. You are fine until you go to sell your car. If you do, Mike Drew will come after it with ascrewdriver and poke it plumb full of holes looking to excise the reust demon. Yet 66 Mustangs can be caving in with rust and they are somehow "National Treasures that must be restored". At least according to the super stupid Mustang owners who don't know that the least little bit of rust makes a car totaly worthless. In fact you will have to pay the recycler to take it away.
I was just be facisious about how we Pantera owners blow our feet off everyday with our thoughtless utterances.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:

quote:

Originally posted by 74LQQKR:
Splittin 'lanes1

I was thinking the same thing with the bumpers. L style bumpers with a 2 pod dash. I guess I dont know Panteras as well as I thought. I have a 74 and wanted exactly what you are looking for. I looked for 30 years. I wanted one that was not hacked up. I finally found one that was pretty much stock. I did the usual MSD, Fluidyne etc. but nothing to the appearance of the car. I get sooooo many compliments on the car by LEAVING IT STOCK... The engine however is not, but the numbers match. I was a bit confused by DeTom's comment "If a Pantera has any rust at all it is worth less" mine has a couple of bubbles at the drivers window base but when I rebuilt the engine and took out the gas tank I expected to find rust but I was able to install the original rubber mounts because every thing was still puuuurrrrfect, even the under side which I saw when I replaced the tubes. There is no way I would scrap my car and save the ZF just because a little rust. My paint is still very good but I know I have to fix the one rust spot I have so it does not get worse. I'm rambling. Good luck on your search and I hope you find the one you want. It's a unbelievable feeling to own a Pantera....

What I meant was if you had rust, no potential newbie could buy it because all of us supersmart Pantera owners would tell him not to, Pantera owners wouldn't risk having to do extensive repairs. In other words, if you have rust you can't sell your car at all. It is almost illegal. You are fine until you go to sell your car. If you do, Mike Drew will come after it with ascrewdriver and poke it plumb full of holes looking to excise the reust demon. Yet 66 Mustangs can be caving in with rust and they are somehow "National Treasures that must be restored". At least according to the super stupid Mustang owners who don't know that the least little bit of rust makes a car totaly worthless. In fact you will have to pay the recycler to take it away.
I was just be facisious about how we Pantera owners blow our feet off everyday with our thoughtless utterances.

hey guys, worth less is 2 words and worthless is 1 word, the 2 word accessment would apply if the cancer had not metastasized, and remain isolated.

sometimes a car living in salt ladened roads show very bad surface and flash rusting throughout the whole car on every concievable unprotected surface, not just hidden, these are the kinds of cars i would difff like to avoid, (poor car)

yes i'm a wannabe owner, i've been lurking on every archived pages my stinkin computer can open, so even though i haven't snuggle up to a pantie lately,or soon( next year) i'm getting up to speed.

now i'm thinkin a bare metal restored for sale done in good taste could be fetched for 35-41,500.00 with big rims.

i don't know how many of those 50 and 60k units actually sell, of course where not talking showcase cars, garage and trailer nellies.

Tell you what splittin, if you just wait long enough Panteras will keep going down in price because most of the owners are ancient old gasbags like myself. As we die off and sell them to get money to pay for nursing home care, younger people who never heard of a Pantera will buy them as curios. Probably for about ten cents on todays dollar.

Hmmm. I've been watching this thread. At first I took DeTom to be serious, but now I think he is just being sarcastic.

If that's the case, then I agree wholeheartedly. I have resisted putting any of my progress pics on here specifically because of the way my fellow owners tend to "pounce" on rust and other issues. A bit of "schadenfreude" perhaps. I have said it before and I'll say it again: we are our own worst enemy when it comes to these cars. Mustangs do have just as many rust issues as Panteras, but aren't treated nearly as negatively by their owners. Panteras and Mustangs aren't even in the same league, yet the price differential isn't that great. I sold my '66 Fastback GT for $37K two years ago. That's definitely Pantera territory. I replace the floors and rear frame rails on that car as well as the lower rear quarters. I was open and honest about it. No one cared because, much like in the case of a Pantera, there is no such thing as an orignal Mustang with no rust. Its just not how they did it back then.

You get it John. Once you complete your car you will have added a good twenty thousand dollars to its value. A person could make a living restoring Panteras if he did all his own work. You can buy rusted out Panteras for under 16K. If you don't go hog wild buying new parts to put on you could flip that same Pantera for 45-50K and pocket the rest after you bought the next rust bucket for 12K.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Tell you what splittin, if you just wait long enough Panteras will keep going down in price because most of the owners are ancient old gasbags like myself. As we die off and sell them to get money to pay for nursing home care, younger people who never heard of a Pantera will buy them as curios. Probably for about ten cents on todays dollar.

Tell you what DeTom, a buyer is always biased towards paying less and seller is polarized, as in any market; finacial, housing, cars whatever, price discovery is dynamic and can or cannot reflect a myriad of sentiments, it is when the buyer finds the car he wants and negotiates the the best price positions for himself based on the value he has assigned to that vehicle, armed with a base knowlegde of pantera valuations and the seller acts or react accordingly. this price discovery plays out everytime a Pantera tranfers owners; as in any things sold.

I can understand your tone and I don't take you seriously, you have a characteristic brand of sense of humor not everyone can detect.

My intentions are not to be a wannabe too too long, nor could I live with myself should i plunge headlong into ownership.as i said on my first post some of my play money is taking a beating in wall street, and paying attention to the market right now is more important to me for the time being that having to buy a car i'll end up TINKERING WITH ad infinitum, which is all too consuming.

to me everything is a game and the search in and of itself is a game to me.

Most Pantera owners have prolly secured their place in nursing homes financially by now and even if they didn't, the state does a decent job of caring for the very old, decrepit, sick and feeble, besides who gives a damn about how you feel when your'e so close to death, not even the victim/patient really knows or care they just wanna die.

so no, 10 cents on the dollor no, 40-60k yes, it takes thousands of man hours and thought , effort, to maintain and create a finished car, i've been there, that price a owner pays cannot reasonably be quantified but most buyers will try to dismmiss it from the purchase price, it's happen to everyone and it is a know fact of being car crazy.

Pantera is also subject to supply and demand. A whole lot of us owners die all at once, over a period of say six months, hundreds of survivors, wives and kids, put these pieces of tin on the market all at once and there are only three guys lookig for a car, you bet they can bid them down. It WILL happen. In maybe five or ten years most all of us old foggies will be dieng off like flies.

i prolly don't subscribe to the scenario that current owners will drop dead in lock step, and causing a flood of italiamericana rusty tin to saturate the market, however, in light of the cost of gas and the constant attention p/o's and future owners of panteras are required to dote onto their prized or future prized possesions, the future owner or current is of a different breed, and caveats for those contemplating crossing the threashold into this self hazing fraternity, my sorry self included.

Thousand appologies DeTom and thanks John, now I get it, hope I'm not getting close to dropping dead. Actually that's an issue that my wife talks about. What's my Pantera worth if I kick it, of course I don't want a new guy driving the car of his dreams when I'm gone, sell it. I told her to contact George or at least someone on this board. She's seen how much time I've put into it and thinks it's worth, say over 100K so you guys would have to bring her back to reality. The time spent on the car is good therapy.. cheers