MME ENGINE FAILURE UPDATE

Chris,

Did you sign any kind of contract, or agreement with MME?

Michael

Mike - Yeah my contract read as follows:

We build it, you pay for it, no we don't warranty it, now stop bothering us.

Good customer service from Jessel as its not really their responsibility. I'm betting that they'll find some kind of valve train alignment or similar problem. Good Luck!

MME will fall off their high horse, the cost of 3 rocker arms ... in exchange for bad publicity is going to cost them HUNDREDS of thousands ... I wouldnt make a trip to Maryland to have them build my motor .. only to find out they will not stand behind trouble shooting 3 rocker arms that JESEL will replace for free ?

I own a business and warranty ALL MY WORK against poor workmanship. I make the manufacturers provide their warranty on parts and equipment. The cost to lose business because of a poor reputation and then try to gain it back .. or even to get new business cost thousands of dollars. To keep and happy customer is the cost of 3 rocker arms that JESEL is warranting.

My be the Colleges should include a Business Course with a Mechanical Engineering Degree ... otherwise this is just plain old fashion common sence they cant teach in Harvard Business School.

Ron

Ron

Ron,

If you did an install for a customer, and several Swagelok fittings failed, (a fitting you've installed & tightened a million times) and the customer & Swagelok both said the failure was your fault, how would you feel?

I'd be a bit put off myself.

I've tightened a zillion jam nuts in my life, never used a torque wrench on one of them, never had a failure either. I'm sure MME has tightened a zillion lock nuts on Jesel rockers too. For a rocker arm manufacturer to blame the mechanic for their broken rocker arms is ludicrous. Absolutely, flippin' ludicrous.

Mel Goldenberg offered to examine the failed rockers to determine why they are failing, but Jesel said they would only replace them if they were NOT examined. I don't think Jesel is innocent.

cowboy from hell

Point well taken ... at which point to you say enough is enough and replace them all ?

Ron

A) I can't blame Jesel for wanting to look at them first. Most times their parts end up in race motors that see severe abuse. If every racer could just go back to Jesel and say replace my broken part for free, they would probably be bankrupt.

Jesel did not ask to see the third rocker arm and I am going to have Jersey Panteras member Mel Goldenberg examine the part to see what his opinion is as to failure.

B) Before replacing them all I think it makes sense and is very generous of the Jesel people to look at the valve train and see if there is something wrong with the set up. If it is a bad batch yes I will replace them all, but with Jesel's stainless steel arma which are an expensive proposition to say the least.

The Pro Series rockers I have are used in much more stressful situations without failure so I would think that there has to be

Either

A)Something wrong in the geometry of the valve train. This would be McKeown's fault.

or

B) The adjusters were overtorqued. Again Jesel says as little as 5-10 ft/lbs of over torque could cause failure over time. Agian this possibility would McKeown's fault.

or

B)The motor was over revved before the dyno pulls which never exceede 7200. Since then the motor was always in the car and the MSD limiter was set to 7200rpm, so it could not have been exceeded after install either. Again a possible McKeown fault.

or

C) Jesel made a bad batch of rockers and somehow did not catch it before it went out of the factory.

That Jesel is taking an interest and is showing an outstanding example of customer serivice is very refreshing. This is in sharp contrast to the lack of customer service I was shown by the McKeowns. It is nice to know that there are still people and companies trying to give you value for your dollar and NOT trying to squeeze every last penny out of you. AGAIN HEATHER TAKE SOME NOTES.

I lose money all the time to have happy, loyal customers. In the end it all comes back to you. I heard about MME and their work on clevelands in some kind of hot-rod magazine a while back and definitely would have called them when it is time for a rebuild or new motor. Based on how you have been treated here (ridiculous considering the price you've paid for supposedly superior performance but apparently not service) they are clearly off the list. I have followed your threads up until now. I am sure you are frustrated - you just want to enjoy the car after all of your efforts and expense and this keeps happening. Hang in there.

C'mon Chris! I think you're going a little too far with this. You only paid $21k for the motor. What do you want???
Seriously, either way, I hope you can find the problem, so you can go out for a drive without worrying if the car will make it home.
Unfortunately, most people will not admit to blame or failure. Mckeown is definately going to lose future work from the Pantera crowd.
Will

Just a bit more in response to Cowboy FH. I have no doubt your comment comes from a wealth of experience. If you know you have done your job correctly then you aggressively work to prove and substantiate that fact - your reputation is on the line and is worth far more than the cost to defend it. If I am MME and know that I am not to blame then I would be a bit put off as you say, I bring in the engine and make sure I have done my job in every respect, then I may be in a position to blame Jesel and save my good name. It sounds like MME is missing out on that opportunity.

Mark,

I had decided to stay out of this, since I don't know all of the facts. But now it seems you don't want to give what may be a legitimate gripe it's proper forum.

Since they don't post on this site, I think one of the moderators should give MME a call and get their side of the story. If MME has such a solid reputation, they should want to 'clear the air'. I would think the duty of the board, and the moderators, would be to defend our community and make sure we're not being taken for a ride. After all, we're the ones who contribute time and money (to our vendors) here. MME does not. Reputations can and do change.

You would be doing our community a tremendous disservice to just delete this post because someone is reporting about an engine builder that didn't do the right thing by him. Sure, people can exaggerate, but what if he's not? Talk to Chris and look over his paperwork. Get the other side, and report it here.

I heard Chris' side of the story first hand last night and would be very interested in hearing the other side. Just make sure, Mark, they don't bill you for the call.

Michael

Mark,

A heartfelt THANK YOU for your work and efforts here! See, it's no longer a thankless job, you now have one official one!

I think the ISSUE here is how is a WARRANTY handled.

Basically the simple rules of being in business as I run my business.

Most manufacturers will warranty the parts or equipment they sell with a MATERIALS replacement warranty. No Labor ..unless you buy it seperately.

Labor Warranties to replace the parts are expected to be handled by the installer.

Here I do disagree because a failed part whether a brand new rocker arm or a AC Compressor takes labor to replace them. A Installer doesnt have no responsibilty for a Manufacturers Warranty on a defective part.

BUT Defective workmanship .. which is hard to prove is the Installer responsibilty.

My Company personally purchases LABOR WARRANTY on every AC Unit we sell in or price. Because its costly to replace a compressor on a Roof top Unit of a MALL and the Bad Reputation of walking away from a unit we installed less then a year before ... will impact future business.

Most of us can relate to this ... Its not really a case of how MME built the motor ... its how it was handled when there was problem ... Sucessful Business's are sucessful because they know how to handle problems and know the impact of NOT handling them. Rarely they are costly ... like an AC Compressor on a mall 20k and most not 3 rocker arms .. 300.00 ?

Ron

First a comment about Jesel rocker arms: the Jesel & T&D rocker arms that I have experience with are extraordinarily beefy parts. They are designed to handle the strongest valve spring pressures available for high lift (0.700"+) camshafts at high rpm. I am aware of the recommendation to tighten the jam nuts to 5 to 20 foot pounds, but I cannot believe that snugging them down with a typical 7" or 8" long combination wrench could possibly damage these beefy parts. I've never used a torque wrench, just gave them a good tug and have never had a problem. What's even more puzzling, these rocker arms are failing on the short side, between the pushrod cup and the pivot, this area is so thick its hard for me to imagine a failure occuring at this place; look at the photo at the bottom of the page (the pen is pointing to the side that is failing) a picture is worth a thousand words.

Second, I think it is great that everyone is supportive of Chris and his plight.

Mark D is absolutely right, the policy of this forum is "if you have nothing good to write, write nothing at all". I've personally not silenced Chris because I've assumed people may interpret silencing Chris as "covering up" for MME, which would not be the case, but people are going to believe that anyway because I've recommended MME so many times in the past.

Mark McKeown is a fan of the Cleveland engine, as I am myself. That's why he's made the Cleveland engine a specialty of his, witnessed by the fact that MME offers a Cleveland crate motor, something unusual in this day. Mark understands the special prep required to make a Cleveland work reliably and make BHP. This is the biggest value MME offers the Pantera community. There aren't a lot of knowlegable Cleveland engine builders left, they've all retired or gone to the big dyno-room in the sky. There's plenty of engine builders who will tell you they know the Cleveland engine, but I know better. MME is the real deal. I have no business relationship with MME, no reason to defend them, I only respect Mark's ability to build a Cleveland engine right.

It is obvious that a business relationship between MME and Chris has broken down. The details to that break down has two sides. That is (or should be) a private matter between two parties. I'm sure if you were to call MME and inquire they would tell you it is a private matter. Just as I am sure they would never come on this forum and write anything derogatory about a customer. Based on my own personal set of moral values, I believe Chris does himself a disservice in airing his displeasure with MME publicly the way he has. These things are best kept private.

I know for a fact that MME has many many satisfied customers on the Cleveland forum. Customers with whom they have friendly relationships. Repeat customers. They don't just build Cleveland engines either. In fact Cleveland engines are a small part of their business. They work on all Ford engines,GM engines and Chrysler engines. They do chassis work on race cars, trucks and even imports. They do a lot of work amongst Mustang owners. And they've built an admirable reputation. I've been privately thanked by a dozen Pantera owners for referring them to MME. Chris has been the only Pantera owner reporting a bad experience. Each of you need to consider this when you form your opinion of MME. Based upon all of these considerations, I do not believe that the breakdown in the relationship between Chris and MME is representative of the business practices of MME or that everyone would have the same experience with them that Chris has had. If I had any reason to believe otherwise, I would never have recommended them.

I want Chris' mechanical problems resolved as much as the rest of you. I don't want Chris to think that my comments above in anyway means I am not supportive of him. I understand the sentiment expressed by a couple of you that MME ought to come on this forum & defend themselves, or take care of Chris' complaints for no other reason than to avoid bad publicity. I also understand Chris' appreciation of Jesel's offer to examine the motor and replace the broken rocker arms. What am I to tell you? I don't advise MME or even work with them. The break down of the relationship between MME & Chris is between MME and Chris. MME is not going to come on this forum and tell their side of the story if it would mean making a derogatory comment about Chris in public, that would not look good. So they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Lets analyze this like adults. A business run by a husband and wife team has shut the door on a customer. Why they've totally shut the door on Chris we don't know, it is not likely we would all agree who is to blame even if we all had the complete facts, but we can agree that totally shutting the door on a customer is an extreme thing to do, and normally there is a "perceived" substantial reason for doing so. Mark and Heather did not wake up one morning and decide they didn't like Chris Lewis for no reason at all. Nor are they two immoral, unethical, uncaring people who routinely rip-off their customers. Life is not black and white like that. There are no indications shutting the door on customers is the normal business practice of MME. If there is, I want to hear about it.

It is a fact of life that relationships (both business and personal) break down between well meaning adults. I frankly do not want to know the reason why the business relationship between Chris and MME has broken down, I will be quite content if it is kept private between Chris and MME. No good guys, no bad guys, no victims, no perpetrators. Nobody has to take sides. Neither Chris nor the McKeowns need to have their character questioned. Which brings me back to an earlier point, these things are best kept private.

cowboy from hell

First, George, this is not aimed at you. Your comments are reasonable and diplomatic. I have no doubt that you hold MME in high reguard for good reason and I understand that you don't want this forum used to endlessly bash any person or business. I do think this has been a reasonable thread and I have been following it closely because I am planning an engine rebuild soon and want very much to see Chris get to the bottom of the problem and hope he continues to post his progress.

If the Jessel rockers are faulty, MME should be as interested as anybody in getting to the bottom of this problem. They are installing them in their engines, so their engines are subject to expensive failure if the components they select are not up to the job.
If there is a problem with over torqueing or alignment, MME should be interested in getting to the bottom of the problem. They are being paid handsomely for their expertise and someone is not doing their job.
If they are not interested in Chris' problem...then I am not interested in them. I thank Chris for airing his dealings with MME since MME has been recommended on this board and since I seem to remember Mark comming on this board to solicit business in the past.
What, exactly, is Chris supposed to do if MME refuses to do anything for him? Three identical failures on a brand new high dollar engine. SOMEONE at MME should be interested!
George is in a bad spot, MME is in a bad spot, Jessel is in a bad spot, oh yeah, and Chris is in a bad spot too. Maybe we shouldn't forget him.

It's not how you treat your customer when everything goes right...it's how you treat them when things go wrong that reveals your true character.
The only things I can think of that MME could be accusing Chris of is running the engine without oil (but other things would sieze up before the rocker arms broke). Or overreving the engine. If Chris is red-lining a brand new engine, he's bringing on his own problems. If he is not, then he has a reasonable expectation that it should hold together for more than a few weeks.
If MME doesn't want to address Chris' engine in specifics, maybe they could offer some explaination as to the failure risks with new high performance engines. MME's experience in this area would be useful to us all. Also, if they build engines that are race motors and were never ment for street use (a $21,000 motor sounds like it could be one of these) then it may be as simple as "a motor of this configuration and power output is not to be used on the street". We've all seen motors that are just hand grenades waiting to blow.
There ARE two sides to every story. I'd very much like to hear MME's side, even if they just respond in a way that is not specific to Chris or his engine.
We all have a lot to learn.

Mooso

Curious. What exactly broke on the "rocker arms"? Was it the arm, the shaft or the bolt studs?

Hopefully all will get resolved here but without even looking to see the damage I would say that it was the mounting studs that failed?

If that is so the most likely cause of failure there would be 'excesive' valve lift, more then the 'rocker arm asssembly' was tested at handling.

My personal experience would say that if you are over .600" lift, then that was the cause right there.

If that is so, then it is the engine builder that is at fault for specifying the cam.

Some engines for the street are being built with the same approach as a flat out race engine. That means every component is stressed to the maximum or as Dolly said, 'this is what happens when you put 10 pounds of mud in a 5 pound sugar sack'.

My personal opinion is that no component should be stressed to more then 85% of its yield point. That is a reasonable safety factor. .85"mue".

.85 x .700 is .595. You certainly can push it to the limit but when it breaks it is over the limit.

If you reach 100% of your heartbeat capacity you are dead. Morto.

The rocker broke on the push rod side of the fulcrum. Basically it snapped off. The first two were so close to being mirror images that you could have taken the broken end from one and put it on the other.

I want address the issue of over revving the engine. To my knowledge this has never happened. The Dyno pulls at MME never exceeded 7200 RPM (I was there for all of them) and MME said the motor was good for 7500-8000 rpm.

An MSD Digital 6-Plus box is in the car, with a rev limt set at 7200 rpm. I personally have never taken the engine over 7000rpm. The rockers all failed around 55-65 mph, in fifth gear which translates to about 2800-3000 rpm.

The only possibility for over revving was when the car was out of my hands at either the body shop or one other mechanics shop to disgnose a carb problem. Again when the car was out of my ahnds the MSD was still set with a 7200rpm limit.

A review of the spring pressures, cam specs and other details with the Jesel reps did not reveal anything on paper that would cause the rocker arms to be overstressed.

The broken rocker arms move freely on the shafts indicating that there has not been any oil starvation.

As for making a comments about an engine builder or any other vendor. Is not this forum a tool with which to share experiences good and bad? If all you ever hear is good things and you don't hear when there are problems how does that serve the community here?

I could spend time detailing many of the additional things that have made my dealings with MME less than pleasant. I have not done that. If anybody wants those additional details I will be glad to provide them directly via PM or email. Then you can judge for yourself what the situation really is.

Maybe I just had expectations that were too high. I feel that I paid a premium price and that requires a premium product, inclusive of premium customer service. Can any of you say you don't have similarly high standards?

Well that's really all I have to say for now.

What are the lift specs on the camshaft?

There are only a few ways to snap the rocker arm like that in my view.

Either the rocker arm, on the valve side was bottoming out against the rocker arm pedestals (unlikely), you have very high rate valve springs AND the valve spring retainer was bottoming out on the top of the valve guide ((pretty high likeliness) OR you have valve spring bind because of a mismatch with the lift requirements of the camshaft.

The assembled height of the valve springs may also be incorrect. That would make the rocker arm go past center of the valve stem and COULD cause a binding.

These problems all stem from high valve lifts and the fact that if they did happen, none of those clearances were checked by the builder.

Did you decide initially on one camshaft lift spec, say .585", and then at the last minute increase it to over .600"?

Also remember that if you chose a hydraulic lifter camshaft, normally you never get 100% of that lift. If the clearances were checked while the engine was not runnig and the lifters were not pumped up, it is likely to get a false reading of something like .100" too low.

The percentage of lift attained with a hydraulic lifter is going to depende on how much oil pressure they get at running.

It is possible that in the break in period you lost some of the tension in the springs allowing more lift and causing bottoming out that was never seen on the engine stand.

Unless God said it was OK, NEVER run an hydraulic lifter in a performance engine.

Doug - The cam has .674 lift on the intake and .681 on the exhaust. This is a lobe lift of .385 and .389 respectively.

The spring pressures are like 280 on the seat, 650 on the nose.

Again these numbers and specs were reviewed with Jesel and they have repeatedly said that these numbers are not beyond the capabilities of the rocker arms being used. I have an appointment with them to have the motor looked at to find the root cause.

I will let the forum members know what we find and hopefully once solved I will be able to enjoy the use of my car.

I believe you and I believe Jessel.

Again, with those kinds of lifts, and that kind of failure, I think that it is highly likely that you have binding in the valve train.

First, that lift requires a competition head. Competition in the sense that the valve springs need to be much taller then normal.

The head needs to be able to accomodate them without the valve spring retainer and the valve guide coming into contact.

That means that the lengths of the valves need to be something like 1/2" longer then stock.

I think that if you look in that area, you will have found your culpret.

Incidentally, your engine builder should have advised you that the life of those valve springs is going to be considerably reduced over that of a stock engine because of the increased lift of the camshaft.

What does that mean? It means that in less then 5,000 miles, if that, you are going to need to replace them.

The numbers you quoted to me is nothing less then a full competition valve train. They simply do not have the same durabilaty as stock. The pressure of the springs at full lift alone puts the engine on the ragged edge. If I remember correctly (and that's a stretch for me ) some race engines require the springs to be changed after every run down the 1/4 mile.

Also, any lift over about .550 the builder needs to be 1000% sure of the valve train geometry and that the valve spring retainer is not coming into contact with the rocker arm, because they have a nasty habbit of doing that.

Just my opinion.

If that is the case I will detune the engine with a lower lift cam and try to get about 600-625hp at the flywheel instead of the 713hp the engine dynoed at.

quote:

Originally posted by DJEZC:
If that is the case I will detune the engine with a lower lift cam and try to get about 600-625hp at the flywheel instead of the 713hp the engine dynoed at.

What's wrong with a good old 500hp engine? Anything more in a Pantera is questionable anyway? Torque limits in the ZF, radiator limitations, suspension limitations. 700 belongs in a dragster. Not a car that you want to go anywhere with without a trailer.


It took me two hours to get from Giant Stadium to the GWB. I can't immagine what it would be like driving a 700hp Pantera in that.
Just my opinion.

I would say I would have to agree with Doug 100%. Not sure why there is an 700hp motor in your Pantera ? You cant drive it anywhere .. it breaks ... and personally I dont think even the rocker arms are the end of it.

Its a race motor .. not meant to be driving down the parkway to whiskey, kingston, ... it requires adjustments, tuning, tweeking, on a daily basis and unless you can od it yourself ..its costly.

My experience has always been with engine builders ..they ask me whats the application and then we go at it. My builder at present has made adjsutments to the build ... we are going Hydraulic Roller, lower compression ... ever since I decided a Pantera wasnt the car to go roead racing with. When I went from racing Super Stock Comet to Super Pro ...it was because SS got too expensive ... Cerralli adjsuted the build but not too far from SS ..he kept it reliable for me .. because as a twenty year old kid I was learning ..he thought it best that I learned how to drive a race car then set the land speed record.

Application Application Application

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by DJEZC:
... Is not this forum a tool with which to share experiences good and bad? If all you ever hear is good things and you don't hear when there are problems how does that serve the community here ...

No commmunity is ever served by the defamation of the reputation of a decent person or his business.

quote:

No commmunity is ever served by the defamation of the reputation of a decent person or his business.

True. But everyone - everyone - goofs once in a while. As Mooso wrote earlier,

"It's not how you treat your customer when everything goes right...it's how you treat them when things go wrong that reveals your true character."

Strangely, with the exception of George, I have not seen a bunch of postings on this thread from anyone else who have also dealt with MME.

As far as I can tell at this point, the jury is still out on exactly what is causing catastrophic failure in Chris' motor.

As for defaming the reputation of a businessman, I remember (and found) the following posted back on March 11,2008:


"2. Doing business with Flow Kooler

I had difficulties with the new owner of Flow Kooler on a businessman to businessman level last year. I am leary of the man's motives. I would prefer to send business elsewhere when possible. That's all I am prepared to write.

cowboy from hell"


Larry

quote:

As for making a comments about an engine builder or any other vendor. Is not this forum a tool with which to share experiences good and bad? If all you ever hear is good things and you don't hear when there are problems how does that serve the community here?

You mean a free and open exchange of thoughts and ideas?

Why, what kind of radical ARE you?

I agree with your statement 100%.

Larry

Hellow Chris,
Sorry for your troubles,Your problem is with the rockers breaking, considering the whole of your hard earned investment, If this is locallized to just the rockers and all is well with the rest of the engine, then something in the geometry of your rockers or just a bad set of parts would be a small problem and in the end I hope it is a simple thing. I would not want to try and sharpshoot any of the problem at this point.
I also know that I would be livid after spending as much as you have and not getting a better response from the builder!
Thank You for warning myself and others of your experience with yet another vendor that would take advantage of enthusiast threw this or any website!
I am sure that if you would have gotten what you expected, and I know they said they could deliver what you wanted before they got your money, you would be praising them instead!

Again, Thank you! Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:

quote:

Originally posted by DJEZC:
... Is not this forum a tool with which to share experiences good and bad? If all you ever hear is good things and you don't hear when there are problems how does that serve the community here ...

No commmunity is ever served by the defamation of the reputation of a decent person or his business.

Every business uses recommendations to fuel their future business. Customers need to know the non-recommendations as well.

This is just a non-recommendation. What's the big deal?

I am in business also. I simply have a clause in my proposals that state that the "components" are waranteed by their manufacturers. I am not responsible for the labor cost to replace those items under waranty.

It's very simple. I didn't make them. I don't guaranty them either. That's the manufacturers problem.

I'm sure that this is as close to an identical problem as can be, considering we are talking about apples and oranges.

I don't think that is a harsh statement at all. Let Jessel pay the costs of replacing the arms. (Yea, right!)

Doug - Jesel has agreed to replace all three arms for free and they have connected me with a preferred vendor of theirs for a free diagnosis of the cause of the rocker arms.

Kudos to Jesel for going way out of the box to help an owner of their parts who did not buy directly from them.

The car is scheduled for the 26th to have the valve train diagnosed. Big thanks to Jersey Panteras member Mel Goldenberg for the use of his newly purchased trailer to transport the car.

For some of the other forum memebers who question the wisdom of a 700hp motor in a street car, I did not spec a 700hp motor when working with MME.

My specs were 600+hp, 500 ft/lbs of torque from 3000 rpm to 7000 rpm and ability to spin 7500 rpm without coming apart and more than about 40,000 miles before needing any major rebuild. That would be about four years for me between rebuilds.

Larry - Thanks for the support.

That's great progress. Congrats.

I am very interested in what the cause is found to be. I think that Jessel suspects what I did.

When I was younger and crazier (imagine that?) most manufacturers would replace the parts for free. It just makes good sense for them to do that.

I like the original requests you made for hp. Unless it is made by more cubes it would still be a handful too though.

The big block Cobras have a lot of similar characteristics with 500 ft-lbs Panteras right off of idle. They are going to break traction off of idle.
Whatever. I hope it all works out ok for you.

Kudos to Jesel ??? WHAT DA F$%# ..Kudos to a multi million dollar co warranting 3 rockers ? yea right ?

For some of the other forum memebers who question the wisdom of a 700hp motor in a street car, I did not spec a 700hp motor when working with MME ..... but you certainly are going to have to deal with what comes with a 700hp motor and if you think your going to get 40k miles out of it your dreaming .. maybe 25k. Mybe the use of this CHI Jesel combo in te MASTER COMP for a total of 20 minutes ... doesnt hold up longer then 1 hour on the street ??

The point is simple and I deal with it every day ... to warranty or not to warranty .. whos responsible and who spec'd. Lord knows I battled this theory in court a few times.

Me myself and my Business we are not in any YELLOW PAGES or any paid advertizement , we dont do mailings ...its all word of mouth and I know for sure the cost of 3 rockers wouldnt be in question .. the knowledge to why they failed would make me lose sleep at night wondering how many more I installed that are going to fail and cost me future business.

Best of Luck.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Kudos to Jesel ??? WHAT DA F$%# ..Kudos to a multi million dollar co warranting 3 rockers ? yea right ?

For some of the other forum memebers who question the wisdom of a 700hp motor in a street car, I did not spec a 700hp motor when working with MME ..... but you certainly are going to have to deal with what comes with a 700hp motor and if you think your going to get 40k miles out of it your dreaming .. maybe 25k. Mybe the use of this CHI Jesel combo in te MASTER COMP for a total of 20 minutes ... doesnt hold up longer then 1 hour on the street ??

The point is simple and I deal with it every day ... to warranty or not to warranty .. whos responsible and who spec'd. Lord knows I battled this theory in court a few times.

Me myself and my Business we are not in any YELLOW PAGES or any paid advertizement , we dont do mailings ...its all word of mouth and I know for sure the cost of 3 rockers wouldnt be in question .. the knowledge to why they failed would make me lose sleep at night wondering how many more I installed that are going to fail and cost me future business.

Best of Luck.

1000% correct...and why did they fail? 700 horses can be a rough bunch.

I'm anxious to hear the results of Jesel's failure analysis. FWIW, these things don't just break. A bad batch of castings is a nice fantasy, but highly unlikely. I suspect there's an interference problem - valve spring coil bind, pushrod length too long, etc. - any of which would be the builder's responsibility as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, I've been thoroughly impressed with an engine builder in the LA area who has stood by his work when the engine he rebuilt lost oil pressure and failed within the first couple hundred miles, three consecutive times! Each time he tore it apart to analyze the cause of the problem and rebuilt it again at no additional cost. The owner of the car is a good friend of mine who said (IIRC) that he was only out the cost of the oil, filter, and intake/exhaust gaskets, and the effort to pull and replace the engine 4x after the initial build. That engine now has about 1,200 miles on it and all looks good. Kudo's to the builder for standing behind his work and supporting his customers!

Once the engine is done being broken-in and survives another 1,000 miles (within 1-2 months) I'm sure there will be a follow up post with all the gory details.

I was referred to MME sometime last year by a forum member when I was looking for someone that knows the 351c. After speaking with MME I felt good about them doing my build. I told them my use, seldom on the track but still driven hard as well a good street driving car. They said any hard driving on the track I should go to a Windsor. I didn’t want to go that way. My number one requirement was reliability, then HP. I mentioned going with MSD, they recommended ICE. I didn’t want to be adjusting lifters either. I let them do what they do best… Bottom line.. 586hp/540tq…..2000+ miles. Not so much as a hic-up.. (and 15mpg)

I usually try to stay out of most of these type of post's. But I believe that what was said earlier over rides all other views (at least to me).
"It is not how you treat your customer when everything is working great, but how you treat your customer when everything is going wrong, that defines your true character"!
All my business comes by word of mouth (I do not really advertise my business to the public), And yet for the most part I stay very busy year after year, despite the economy. Not that the econmy does not effect me, because when it is down I have to lower prices (so less profit) to compete with guys who are desperate to get business and give away the farm. I put thousands of dollars of manufactured parts and equipment into every job, and I guarantee it. If the manufacturer does not stand behind the product, then I replace it with another brand of equal quality and drop the other manufacturer. If he cannot guarantee his product to my customer and me, then I will have nothing to do with that company!
I have had to make a few demands time to time to remind some companys that they need to step up and take care of things. But for the most part they want my business and I make it clear what it will take to keep my buiness. Years ago I remember reading a couple of books called "In Search of excellence", and another called "Excellence the High Calling", and the truth is each business makes a valid decision each day whether they are going to rise to the excellent level or motor along at the average level.
I have had to eat the cost of some repairs because a home owner has missused products and caused damage to them (and some of these customers were real jerks), but I have taken care of them any way, and I have never regretted these type of decisions. I believe you always come out miles ahead to take the high road!

A couple of quotes on excellence:
The ordinary seek to do what is easiest, the excellent seek to do what is right.

The cowardly do right because it is safer.
The ambitious do right because it is expedient.
The miserly do right because it is cheaper.
The average do right because it is expected.
But the best do right because it is!

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle

1). By its very nature excelence is irrational.
2).True excellence is totally impractical.
3). True excellence is totally uncalculating.
4).True excellence is completely unlimited.

The truth is that each day we wake up and make a decision to get out of bed, a decision to get dressed, maybe even a decision to eat breakfast.
Why not a decision to take the high road of excellence. One thing that I have noticed with a few of the excellent ones that I have come to know and appreciate, is that as I watch their very impressive life style, they are not satisfied with just walking the high road of excellence, but also take the time to reach down to one like myself maybe walking the middle road of average, and try to bring us up to their level. What a view from the high road! Please understand I do not think that I am there yet, but I certainly have an appreciation of that sweet aroma of EXCELLENCE!

quote:

....."We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle......Please understand I do not think that I am there yet, but I certainly have an appreciation of that sweet aroma of EXCELLENCE!

The excellent never accept that they have arrived at the level of "excellence". That's how they get there. In the end, we can choose to be miserable or choose to strive to be the best we can be. It really is a choice. Not everyone realizes this. -Well said Rapid.

Terry - I am happy for you that everything worked out great. I can only wish my experience was as good as yours. - Chris