MME ENGINE FAILURE UPDATE

Chris,

Did you sign any kind of contract, or agreement with MME?

Michael

Mike - Yeah my contract read as follows:

We build it, you pay for it, no we don't warranty it, now stop bothering us.

Good customer service from Jessel as its not really their responsibility. I'm betting that they'll find some kind of valve train alignment or similar problem. Good Luck!

MME will fall off their high horse, the cost of 3 rocker arms ... in exchange for bad publicity is going to cost them HUNDREDS of thousands ... I wouldnt make a trip to Maryland to have them build my motor .. only to find out they will not stand behind trouble shooting 3 rocker arms that JESEL will replace for free ?

I own a business and warranty ALL MY WORK against poor workmanship. I make the manufacturers provide their warranty on parts and equipment. The cost to lose business because of a poor reputation and then try to gain it back .. or even to get new business cost thousands of dollars. To keep and happy customer is the cost of 3 rocker arms that JESEL is warranting.

My be the Colleges should include a Business Course with a Mechanical Engineering Degree ... otherwise this is just plain old fashion common sence they cant teach in Harvard Business School.

Ron

Ron

Ron,

If you did an install for a customer, and several Swagelok fittings failed, (a fitting you've installed & tightened a million times) and the customer & Swagelok both said the failure was your fault, how would you feel?

I'd be a bit put off myself.

I've tightened a zillion jam nuts in my life, never used a torque wrench on one of them, never had a failure either. I'm sure MME has tightened a zillion lock nuts on Jesel rockers too. For a rocker arm manufacturer to blame the mechanic for their broken rocker arms is ludicrous. Absolutely, flippin' ludicrous.

Mel Goldenberg offered to examine the failed rockers to determine why they are failing, but Jesel said they would only replace them if they were NOT examined. I don't think Jesel is innocent.

cowboy from hell

Point well taken ... at which point to you say enough is enough and replace them all ?

Ron

A) I can't blame Jesel for wanting to look at them first. Most times their parts end up in race motors that see severe abuse. If every racer could just go back to Jesel and say replace my broken part for free, they would probably be bankrupt.

Jesel did not ask to see the third rocker arm and I am going to have Jersey Panteras member Mel Goldenberg examine the part to see what his opinion is as to failure.

B) Before replacing them all I think it makes sense and is very generous of the Jesel people to look at the valve train and see if there is something wrong with the set up. If it is a bad batch yes I will replace them all, but with Jesel's stainless steel arma which are an expensive proposition to say the least.

The Pro Series rockers I have are used in much more stressful situations without failure so I would think that there has to be

Either

A)Something wrong in the geometry of the valve train. This would be McKeown's fault.

or

B) The adjusters were overtorqued. Again Jesel says as little as 5-10 ft/lbs of over torque could cause failure over time. Agian this possibility would McKeown's fault.

or

B)The motor was over revved before the dyno pulls which never exceede 7200. Since then the motor was always in the car and the MSD limiter was set to 7200rpm, so it could not have been exceeded after install either. Again a possible McKeown fault.

or

C) Jesel made a bad batch of rockers and somehow did not catch it before it went out of the factory.

That Jesel is taking an interest and is showing an outstanding example of customer serivice is very refreshing. This is in sharp contrast to the lack of customer service I was shown by the McKeowns. It is nice to know that there are still people and companies trying to give you value for your dollar and NOT trying to squeeze every last penny out of you. AGAIN HEATHER TAKE SOME NOTES.

I lose money all the time to have happy, loyal customers. In the end it all comes back to you. I heard about MME and their work on clevelands in some kind of hot-rod magazine a while back and definitely would have called them when it is time for a rebuild or new motor. Based on how you have been treated here (ridiculous considering the price you've paid for supposedly superior performance but apparently not service) they are clearly off the list. I have followed your threads up until now. I am sure you are frustrated - you just want to enjoy the car after all of your efforts and expense and this keeps happening. Hang in there.

C'mon Chris! I think you're going a little too far with this. You only paid $21k for the motor. What do you want???
Seriously, either way, I hope you can find the problem, so you can go out for a drive without worrying if the car will make it home.
Unfortunately, most people will not admit to blame or failure. Mckeown is definately going to lose future work from the Pantera crowd.
Will

Just a bit more in response to Cowboy FH. I have no doubt your comment comes from a wealth of experience. If you know you have done your job correctly then you aggressively work to prove and substantiate that fact - your reputation is on the line and is worth far more than the cost to defend it. If I am MME and know that I am not to blame then I would be a bit put off as you say, I bring in the engine and make sure I have done my job in every respect, then I may be in a position to blame Jesel and save my good name. It sounds like MME is missing out on that opportunity.

Mark,

I had decided to stay out of this, since I don't know all of the facts. But now it seems you don't want to give what may be a legitimate gripe it's proper forum.

Since they don't post on this site, I think one of the moderators should give MME a call and get their side of the story. If MME has such a solid reputation, they should want to 'clear the air'. I would think the duty of the board, and the moderators, would be to defend our community and make sure we're not being taken for a ride. After all, we're the ones who contribute time and money (to our vendors) here. MME does not. Reputations can and do change.

You would be doing our community a tremendous disservice to just delete this post because someone is reporting about an engine builder that didn't do the right thing by him. Sure, people can exaggerate, but what if he's not? Talk to Chris and look over his paperwork. Get the other side, and report it here.

I heard Chris' side of the story first hand last night and would be very interested in hearing the other side. Just make sure, Mark, they don't bill you for the call.

Michael

Mark,

A heartfelt THANK YOU for your work and efforts here! See, it's no longer a thankless job, you now have one official one!

I think the ISSUE here is how is a WARRANTY handled.

Basically the simple rules of being in business as I run my business.

Most manufacturers will warranty the parts or equipment they sell with a MATERIALS replacement warranty. No Labor ..unless you buy it seperately.

Labor Warranties to replace the parts are expected to be handled by the installer.

Here I do disagree because a failed part whether a brand new rocker arm or a AC Compressor takes labor to replace them. A Installer doesnt have no responsibilty for a Manufacturers Warranty on a defective part.

BUT Defective workmanship .. which is hard to prove is the Installer responsibilty.

My Company personally purchases LABOR WARRANTY on every AC Unit we sell in or price. Because its costly to replace a compressor on a Roof top Unit of a MALL and the Bad Reputation of walking away from a unit we installed less then a year before ... will impact future business.

Most of us can relate to this ... Its not really a case of how MME built the motor ... its how it was handled when there was problem ... Sucessful Business's are sucessful because they know how to handle problems and know the impact of NOT handling them. Rarely they are costly ... like an AC Compressor on a mall 20k and most not 3 rocker arms .. 300.00 ?

Ron

First a comment about Jesel rocker arms: the Jesel & T&D rocker arms that I have experience with are extraordinarily beefy parts. They are designed to handle the strongest valve spring pressures available for high lift (0.700"+) camshafts at high rpm. I am aware of the recommendation to tighten the jam nuts to 5 to 20 foot pounds, but I cannot believe that snugging them down with a typical 7" or 8" long combination wrench could possibly damage these beefy parts. I've never used a torque wrench, just gave them a good tug and have never had a problem. What's even more puzzling, these rocker arms are failing on the short side, between the pushrod cup and the pivot, this area is so thick its hard for me to imagine a failure occuring at this place; look at the photo at the bottom of the page (the pen is pointing to the side that is failing) a picture is worth a thousand words.

Second, I think it is great that everyone is supportive of Chris and his plight.

Mark D is absolutely right, the policy of this forum is "if you have nothing good to write, write nothing at all". I've personally not silenced Chris because I've assumed people may interpret silencing Chris as "covering up" for MME, which would not be the case, but people are going to believe that anyway because I've recommended MME so many times in the past.

Mark McKeown is a fan of the Cleveland engine, as I am myself. That's why he's made the Cleveland engine a specialty of his, witnessed by the fact that MME offers a Cleveland crate motor, something unusual in this day. Mark understands the special prep required to make a Cleveland work reliably and make BHP. This is the biggest value MME offers the Pantera community. There aren't a lot of knowlegable Cleveland engine builders left, they've all retired or gone to the big dyno-room in the sky. There's plenty of engine builders who will tell you they know the Cleveland engine, but I know better. MME is the real deal. I have no business relationship with MME, no reason to defend them, I only respect Mark's ability to build a Cleveland engine right.

It is obvious that a business relationship between MME and Chris has broken down. The details to that break down has two sides. That is (or should be) a private matter between two parties. I'm sure if you were to call MME and inquire they would tell you it is a private matter. Just as I am sure they would never come on this forum and write anything derogatory about a customer. Based on my own personal set of moral values, I believe Chris does himself a disservice in airing his displeasure with MME publicly the way he has. These things are best kept private.

I know for a fact that MME has many many satisfied customers on the Cleveland forum. Customers with whom they have friendly relationships. Repeat customers. They don't just build Cleveland engines either. In fact Cleveland engines are a small part of their business. They work on all Ford engines,GM engines and Chrysler engines. They do chassis work on race cars, trucks and even imports. They do a lot of work amongst Mustang owners. And they've built an admirable reputation. I've been privately thanked by a dozen Pantera owners for referring them to MME. Chris has been the only Pantera owner reporting a bad experience. Each of you need to consider this when you form your opinion of MME. Based upon all of these considerations, I do not believe that the breakdown in the relationship between Chris and MME is representative of the business practices of MME or that everyone would have the same experience with them that Chris has had. If I had any reason to believe otherwise, I would never have recommended them.

I want Chris' mechanical problems resolved as much as the rest of you. I don't want Chris to think that my comments above in anyway means I am not supportive of him. I understand the sentiment expressed by a couple of you that MME ought to come on this forum & defend themselves, or take care of Chris' complaints for no other reason than to avoid bad publicity. I also understand Chris' appreciation of Jesel's offer to examine the motor and replace the broken rocker arms. What am I to tell you? I don't advise MME or even work with them. The break down of the relationship between MME & Chris is between MME and Chris. MME is not going to come on this forum and tell their side of the story if it would mean making a derogatory comment about Chris in public, that would not look good. So they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Lets analyze this like adults. A business run by a husband and wife team has shut the door on a customer. Why they've totally shut the door on Chris we don't know, it is not likely we would all agree who is to blame even if we all had the complete facts, but we can agree that totally shutting the door on a customer is an extreme thing to do, and normally there is a "perceived" substantial reason for doing so. Mark and Heather did not wake up one morning and decide they didn't like Chris Lewis for no reason at all. Nor are they two immoral, unethical, uncaring people who routinely rip-off their customers. Life is not black and white like that. There are no indications shutting the door on customers is the normal business practice of MME. If there is, I want to hear about it.

It is a fact of life that relationships (both business and personal) break down between well meaning adults. I frankly do not want to know the reason why the business relationship between Chris and MME has broken down, I will be quite content if it is kept private between Chris and MME. No good guys, no bad guys, no victims, no perpetrators. Nobody has to take sides. Neither Chris nor the McKeowns need to have their character questioned. Which brings me back to an earlier point, these things are best kept private.

cowboy from hell

First, George, this is not aimed at you. Your comments are reasonable and diplomatic. I have no doubt that you hold MME in high reguard for good reason and I understand that you don't want this forum used to endlessly bash any person or business. I do think this has been a reasonable thread and I have been following it closely because I am planning an engine rebuild soon and want very much to see Chris get to the bottom of the problem and hope he continues to post his progress.

If the Jessel rockers are faulty, MME should be as interested as anybody in getting to the bottom of this problem. They are installing them in their engines, so their engines are subject to expensive failure if the components they select are not up to the job.
If there is a problem with over torqueing or alignment, MME should be interested in getting to the bottom of the problem. They are being paid handsomely for their expertise and someone is not doing their job.
If they are not interested in Chris' problem...then I am not interested in them. I thank Chris for airing his dealings with MME since MME has been recommended on this board and since I seem to remember Mark comming on this board to solicit business in the past.
What, exactly, is Chris supposed to do if MME refuses to do anything for him? Three identical failures on a brand new high dollar engine. SOMEONE at MME should be interested!
George is in a bad spot, MME is in a bad spot, Jessel is in a bad spot, oh yeah, and Chris is in a bad spot too. Maybe we shouldn't forget him.

It's not how you treat your customer when everything goes right...it's how you treat them when things go wrong that reveals your true character.
The only things I can think of that MME could be accusing Chris of is running the engine without oil (but other things would sieze up before the rocker arms broke). Or overreving the engine. If Chris is red-lining a brand new engine, he's bringing on his own problems. If he is not, then he has a reasonable expectation that it should hold together for more than a few weeks.
If MME doesn't want to address Chris' engine in specifics, maybe they could offer some explaination as to the failure risks with new high performance engines. MME's experience in this area would be useful to us all. Also, if they build engines that are race motors and were never ment for street use (a $21,000 motor sounds like it could be one of these) then it may be as simple as "a motor of this configuration and power output is not to be used on the street". We've all seen motors that are just hand grenades waiting to blow.
There ARE two sides to every story. I'd very much like to hear MME's side, even if they just respond in a way that is not specific to Chris or his engine.
We all have a lot to learn.

Mooso

Curious. What exactly broke on the "rocker arms"? Was it the arm, the shaft or the bolt studs?

Hopefully all will get resolved here but without even looking to see the damage I would say that it was the mounting studs that failed?

If that is so the most likely cause of failure there would be 'excesive' valve lift, more then the 'rocker arm asssembly' was tested at handling.

My personal experience would say that if you are over .600" lift, then that was the cause right there.

If that is so, then it is the engine builder that is at fault for specifying the cam.

Some engines for the street are being built with the same approach as a flat out race engine. That means every component is stressed to the maximum or as Dolly said, 'this is what happens when you put 10 pounds of mud in a 5 pound sugar sack'.

My personal opinion is that no component should be stressed to more then 85% of its yield point. That is a reasonable safety factor. .85"mue".

.85 x .700 is .595. You certainly can push it to the limit but when it breaks it is over the limit.

If you reach 100% of your heartbeat capacity you are dead. Morto.

The rocker broke on the push rod side of the fulcrum. Basically it snapped off. The first two were so close to being mirror images that you could have taken the broken end from one and put it on the other.

I want address the issue of over revving the engine. To my knowledge this has never happened. The Dyno pulls at MME never exceeded 7200 RPM (I was there for all of them) and MME said the motor was good for 7500-8000 rpm.

An MSD Digital 6-Plus box is in the car, with a rev limt set at 7200 rpm. I personally have never taken the engine over 7000rpm. The rockers all failed around 55-65 mph, in fifth gear which translates to about 2800-3000 rpm.

The only possibility for over revving was when the car was out of my hands at either the body shop or one other mechanics shop to disgnose a carb problem. Again when the car was out of my ahnds the MSD was still set with a 7200rpm limit.

A review of the spring pressures, cam specs and other details with the Jesel reps did not reveal anything on paper that would cause the rocker arms to be overstressed.

The broken rocker arms move freely on the shafts indicating that there has not been any oil starvation.

As for making a comments about an engine builder or any other vendor. Is not this forum a tool with which to share experiences good and bad? If all you ever hear is good things and you don't hear when there are problems how does that serve the community here?

I could spend time detailing many of the additional things that have made my dealings with MME less than pleasant. I have not done that. If anybody wants those additional details I will be glad to provide them directly via PM or email. Then you can judge for yourself what the situation really is.

Maybe I just had expectations that were too high. I feel that I paid a premium price and that requires a premium product, inclusive of premium customer service. Can any of you say you don't have similarly high standards?

Well that's really all I have to say for now.

What are the lift specs on the camshaft?

There are only a few ways to snap the rocker arm like that in my view.

Either the rocker arm, on the valve side was bottoming out against the rocker arm pedestals (unlikely), you have very high rate valve springs AND the valve spring retainer was bottoming out on the top of the valve guide ((pretty high likeliness) OR you have valve spring bind because of a mismatch with the lift requirements of the camshaft.

The assembled height of the valve springs may also be incorrect. That would make the rocker arm go past center of the valve stem and COULD cause a binding.

These problems all stem from high valve lifts and the fact that if they did happen, none of those clearances were checked by the builder.

Did you decide initially on one camshaft lift spec, say .585", and then at the last minute increase it to over .600"?

Also remember that if you chose a hydraulic lifter camshaft, normally you never get 100% of that lift. If the clearances were checked while the engine was not runnig and the lifters were not pumped up, it is likely to get a false reading of something like .100" too low.

The percentage of lift attained with a hydraulic lifter is going to depende on how much oil pressure they get at running.

It is possible that in the break in period you lost some of the tension in the springs allowing more lift and causing bottoming out that was never seen on the engine stand.

Unless God said it was OK, NEVER run an hydraulic lifter in a performance engine.

Doug - The cam has .674 lift on the intake and .681 on the exhaust. This is a lobe lift of .385 and .389 respectively.

The spring pressures are like 280 on the seat, 650 on the nose.

Again these numbers and specs were reviewed with Jesel and they have repeatedly said that these numbers are not beyond the capabilities of the rocker arms being used. I have an appointment with them to have the motor looked at to find the root cause.

I will let the forum members know what we find and hopefully once solved I will be able to enjoy the use of my car.

I believe you and I believe Jessel.

Again, with those kinds of lifts, and that kind of failure, I think that it is highly likely that you have binding in the valve train.

First, that lift requires a competition head. Competition in the sense that the valve springs need to be much taller then normal.

The head needs to be able to accomodate them without the valve spring retainer and the valve guide coming into contact.

That means that the lengths of the valves need to be something like 1/2" longer then stock.

I think that if you look in that area, you will have found your culpret.

Incidentally, your engine builder should have advised you that the life of those valve springs is going to be considerably reduced over that of a stock engine because of the increased lift of the camshaft.

What does that mean? It means that in less then 5,000 miles, if that, you are going to need to replace them.

The numbers you quoted to me is nothing less then a full competition valve train. They simply do not have the same durabilaty as stock. The pressure of the springs at full lift alone puts the engine on the ragged edge. If I remember correctly (and that's a stretch for me ) some race engines require the springs to be changed after every run down the 1/4 mile.

Also, any lift over about .550 the builder needs to be 1000% sure of the valve train geometry and that the valve spring retainer is not coming into contact with the rocker arm, because they have a nasty habbit of doing that.

Just my opinion.

If that is the case I will detune the engine with a lower lift cam and try to get about 600-625hp at the flywheel instead of the 713hp the engine dynoed at.

quote:

Originally posted by DJEZC:
If that is the case I will detune the engine with a lower lift cam and try to get about 600-625hp at the flywheel instead of the 713hp the engine dynoed at.

What's wrong with a good old 500hp engine? Anything more in a Pantera is questionable anyway? Torque limits in the ZF, radiator limitations, suspension limitations. 700 belongs in a dragster. Not a car that you want to go anywhere with without a trailer.


It took me two hours to get from Giant Stadium to the GWB. I can't immagine what it would be like driving a 700hp Pantera in that.
Just my opinion.

I would say I would have to agree with Doug 100%. Not sure why there is an 700hp motor in your Pantera ? You cant drive it anywhere .. it breaks ... and personally I dont think even the rocker arms are the end of it.

Its a race motor .. not meant to be driving down the parkway to whiskey, kingston, ... it requires adjustments, tuning, tweeking, on a daily basis and unless you can od it yourself ..its costly.

My experience has always been with engine builders ..they ask me whats the application and then we go at it. My builder at present has made adjsutments to the build ... we are going Hydraulic Roller, lower compression ... ever since I decided a Pantera wasnt the car to go roead racing with. When I went from racing Super Stock Comet to Super Pro ...it was because SS got too expensive ... Cerralli adjsuted the build but not too far from SS ..he kept it reliable for me .. because as a twenty year old kid I was learning ..he thought it best that I learned how to drive a race car then set the land speed record.

Application Application Application

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by DJEZC:
... Is not this forum a tool with which to share experiences good and bad? If all you ever hear is good things and you don't hear when there are problems how does that serve the community here ...

No commmunity is ever served by the defamation of the reputation of a decent person or his business.

quote:

No commmunity is ever served by the defamation of the reputation of a decent person or his business.

True. But everyone - everyone - goofs once in a while. As Mooso wrote earlier,

"It's not how you treat your customer when everything goes right...it's how you treat them when things go wrong that reveals your true character."

Strangely, with the exception of George, I have not seen a bunch of postings on this thread from anyone else who have also dealt with MME.

As far as I can tell at this point, the jury is still out on exactly what is causing catastrophic failure in Chris' motor.

As for defaming the reputation of a businessman, I remember (and found) the following posted back on March 11,2008:


"2. Doing business with Flow Kooler

I had difficulties with the new owner of Flow Kooler on a businessman to businessman level last year. I am leary of the man's motives. I would prefer to send business elsewhere when possible. That's all I am prepared to write.

cowboy from hell"


Larry

quote:

As for making a comments about an engine builder or any other vendor. Is not this forum a tool with which to share experiences good and bad? If all you ever hear is good things and you don't hear when there are problems how does that serve the community here?

You mean a free and open exchange of thoughts and ideas?

Why, what kind of radical ARE you?

I agree with your statement 100%.

Larry

Hellow Chris,
Sorry for your troubles,Your problem is with the rockers breaking, considering the whole of your hard earned investment, If this is locallized to just the rockers and all is well with the rest of the engine, then something in the geometry of your rockers or just a bad set of parts would be a small problem and in the end I hope it is a simple thing. I would not want to try and sharpshoot any of the problem at this point.
I also know that I would be livid after spending as much as you have and not getting a better response from the builder!
Thank You for warning myself and others of your experience with yet another vendor that would take advantage of enthusiast threw this or any website!
I am sure that if you would have gotten what you expected, and I know they said they could deliver what you wanted before they got your money, you would be praising them instead!

Again, Thank you! Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:

quote:

Originally posted by DJEZC:
... Is not this forum a tool with which to share experiences good and bad? If all you ever hear is good things and you don't hear when there are problems how does that serve the community here ...

No commmunity is ever served by the defamation of the reputation of a decent person or his business.

Every business uses recommendations to fuel their future business. Customers need to know the non-recommendations as well.

This is just a non-recommendation. What's the big deal?

I am in business also. I simply have a clause in my proposals that state that the "components" are waranteed by their manufacturers. I am not responsible for the labor cost to replace those items under waranty.

It's very simple. I didn't make them. I don't guaranty them either. That's the manufacturers problem.

I'm sure that this is as close to an identical problem as can be, considering we are talking about apples and oranges.

I don't think that is a harsh statement at all. Let Jessel pay the costs of replacing the arms. (Yea, right!)

Doug - Jesel has agreed to replace all three arms for free and they have connected me with a preferred vendor of theirs for a free diagnosis of the cause of the rocker arms.

Kudos to Jesel for going way out of the box to help an owner of their parts who did not buy directly from them.

The car is scheduled for the 26th to have the valve train diagnosed. Big thanks to Jersey Panteras member Mel Goldenberg for the use of his newly purchased trailer to transport the car.

For some of the other forum memebers who question the wisdom of a 700hp motor in a street car, I did not spec a 700hp motor when working with MME.

My specs were 600+hp, 500 ft/lbs of torque from 3000 rpm to 7000 rpm and ability to spin 7500 rpm without coming apart and more than about 40,000 miles before needing any major rebuild. That would be about four years for me between rebuilds.

Larry - Thanks for the support.

That's great progress. Congrats.

I am very interested in what the cause is found to be. I think that Jessel suspects what I did.

When I was younger and crazier (imagine that?) most manufacturers would replace the parts for free. It just makes good sense for them to do that.

I like the original requests you made for hp. Unless it is made by more cubes it would still be a handful too though.

The big block Cobras have a lot of similar characteristics with 500 ft-lbs Panteras right off of idle. They are going to break traction off of idle.
Whatever. I hope it all works out ok for you.

Kudos to Jesel ??? WHAT DA F$%# ..Kudos to a multi million dollar co warranting 3 rockers ? yea right ?

For some of the other forum memebers who question the wisdom of a 700hp motor in a street car, I did not spec a 700hp motor when working with MME ..... but you certainly are going to have to deal with what comes with a 700hp motor and if you think your going to get 40k miles out of it your dreaming .. maybe 25k. Mybe the use of this CHI Jesel combo in te MASTER COMP for a total of 20 minutes ... doesnt hold up longer then 1 hour on the street ??

The point is simple and I deal with it every day ... to warranty or not to warranty .. whos responsible and who spec'd. Lord knows I battled this theory in court a few times.

Me myself and my Business we are not in any YELLOW PAGES or any paid advertizement , we dont do mailings ...its all word of mouth and I know for sure the cost of 3 rockers wouldnt be in question .. the knowledge to why they failed would make me lose sleep at night wondering how many more I installed that are going to fail and cost me future business.

Best of Luck.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Kudos to Jesel ??? WHAT DA F$%# ..Kudos to a multi million dollar co warranting 3 rockers ? yea right ?

For some of the other forum memebers who question the wisdom of a 700hp motor in a street car, I did not spec a 700hp motor when working with MME ..... but you certainly are going to have to deal with what comes with a 700hp motor and if you think your going to get 40k miles out of it your dreaming .. maybe 25k. Mybe the use of this CHI Jesel combo in te MASTER COMP for a total of 20 minutes ... doesnt hold up longer then 1 hour on the street ??

The point is simple and I deal with it every day ... to warranty or not to warranty .. whos responsible and who spec'd. Lord knows I battled this theory in court a few times.

Me myself and my Business we are not in any YELLOW PAGES or any paid advertizement , we dont do mailings ...its all word of mouth and I know for sure the cost of 3 rockers wouldnt be in question .. the knowledge to why they failed would make me lose sleep at night wondering how many more I installed that are going to fail and cost me future business.

Best of Luck.

1000% correct...and why did they fail? 700 horses can be a rough bunch.

I'm anxious to hear the results of Jesel's failure analysis. FWIW, these things don't just break. A bad batch of castings is a nice fantasy, but highly unlikely. I suspect there's an interference problem - valve spring coil bind, pushrod length too long, etc. - any of which would be the builder's responsibility as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, I've been thoroughly impressed with an engine builder in the LA area who has stood by his work when the engine he rebuilt lost oil pressure and failed within the first couple hundred miles, three consecutive times! Each time he tore it apart to analyze the cause of the problem and rebuilt it again at no additional cost. The owner of the car is a good friend of mine who said (IIRC) that he was only out the cost of the oil, filter, and intake/exhaust gaskets, and the effort to pull and replace the engine 4x after the initial build. That engine now has about 1,200 miles on it and all looks good. Kudo's to the builder for standing behind his work and supporting his customers!

Once the engine is done being broken-in and survives another 1,000 miles (within 1-2 months) I'm sure there will be a follow up post with all the gory details.

I was referred to MME sometime last year by a forum member when I was looking for someone that knows the 351c. After speaking with MME I felt good about them doing my build. I told them my use, seldom on the track but still driven hard as well a good street driving car. They said any hard driving on the track I should go to a Windsor. I didn’t want to go that way. My number one requirement was reliability, then HP. I mentioned going with MSD, they recommended ICE. I didn’t want to be adjusting lifters either. I let them do what they do best… Bottom line.. 586hp/540tq…..2000+ miles. Not so much as a hic-up.. (and 15mpg)

I usually try to stay out of most of these type of post's. But I believe that what was said earlier over rides all other views (at least to me).
"It is not how you treat your customer when everything is working great, but how you treat your customer when everything is going wrong, that defines your true character"!
All my business comes by word of mouth (I do not really advertise my business to the public), And yet for the most part I stay very busy year after year, despite the economy. Not that the econmy does not effect me, because when it is down I have to lower prices (so less profit) to compete with guys who are desperate to get business and give away the farm. I put thousands of dollars of manufactured parts and equipment into every job, and I guarantee it. If the manufacturer does not stand behind the product, then I replace it with another brand of equal quality and drop the other manufacturer. If he cannot guarantee his product to my customer and me, then I will have nothing to do with that company!
I have had to make a few demands time to time to remind some companys that they need to step up and take care of things. But for the most part they want my business and I make it clear what it will take to keep my buiness. Years ago I remember reading a couple of books called "In Search of excellence", and another called "Excellence the High Calling", and the truth is each business makes a valid decision each day whether they are going to rise to the excellent level or motor along at the average level.
I have had to eat the cost of some repairs because a home owner has missused products and caused damage to them (and some of these customers were real jerks), but I have taken care of them any way, and I have never regretted these type of decisions. I believe you always come out miles ahead to take the high road!

A couple of quotes on excellence:
The ordinary seek to do what is easiest, the excellent seek to do what is right.

The cowardly do right because it is safer.
The ambitious do right because it is expedient.
The miserly do right because it is cheaper.
The average do right because it is expected.
But the best do right because it is!

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle

1). By its very nature excelence is irrational.
2).True excellence is totally impractical.
3). True excellence is totally uncalculating.
4).True excellence is completely unlimited.

The truth is that each day we wake up and make a decision to get out of bed, a decision to get dressed, maybe even a decision to eat breakfast.
Why not a decision to take the high road of excellence. One thing that I have noticed with a few of the excellent ones that I have come to know and appreciate, is that as I watch their very impressive life style, they are not satisfied with just walking the high road of excellence, but also take the time to reach down to one like myself maybe walking the middle road of average, and try to bring us up to their level. What a view from the high road! Please understand I do not think that I am there yet, but I certainly have an appreciation of that sweet aroma of EXCELLENCE!

quote:

....."We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle......Please understand I do not think that I am there yet, but I certainly have an appreciation of that sweet aroma of EXCELLENCE!

The excellent never accept that they have arrived at the level of "excellence". That's how they get there. In the end, we can choose to be miserable or choose to strive to be the best we can be. It really is a choice. Not everyone realizes this. -Well said Rapid.

Terry - I am happy for you that everything worked out great. I can only wish my experience was as good as yours. - Chris

In reality 3 broken rocker arms ..... after a total restoration of a Pantera isnt bad considering the amount of parts and labor that went it to your car ..I think you really should be happy.

Ron

Any updates on the inspection of the rocker arms?

Mark - Jesel has inspected them and found no material defect and has set up an evaluation of the entire valve train with a local vendor who tests parts for them. That inspection/evaluation is scheduled for this Friday.

A big thanks to Jersey Panteras member, Mel Goldenberg, for letting me use his pickup and newly purchased enclosed trailer to transport my Pantera. For those of you who don't Mel he is one of the most genuine and generous individuals you could ever know. His help and support for years has been essential in me totally re-doing the car cosmetically and mechanically.

I will report back with the results as soon as possible.

Any update?

I was sent a link to this forum by someone who thought i should take a lok here.
The first issue to clear up here with Chris or others who think this is a warranty issue, they may wll be correct. However the only way a company can help a customer is if the customer tells the company they have a problem. We have had no calls or any form ofcommuniction from Chris on this isue or any other. We are not mind readers. Yesterday we recieved a call from a shop who said they were working on Chris's car asked if the cam could be switched to a hydraulic. No mention of any part faiure was mentioned. The person did have a very strong opinion of the usage of the car. I have no facts on this, just his opinion.
I expect the reason that we have not gotten any communication from Chris is he probably feels bad about doing so since the last dealing we had with him was him attempying to try to stiff us with a credit card charge. He stopped payment saying he never recieved product. We went a copy of all Chris's e-mails to the credit card company which proved he had recieved the product and the credit card company reversed the stop payment and paid us back. i think Chris has a sor taste from this and just wants to cause trouble as a bit of revenge. Sorry Chris, In the eyes of the Credit card companies the customer is right and the vendors are wrong until proven right. We had enough evidence on you to reverse their decision. Next time don't try to stiff anyone and you will then have nerve enough to call and ask for help if you need it.

And by the way I would have loved to have gotten 21K for the engine. I'm not sure where that figure came from.

Anyone who wants to discuss anything with me is more than wecome to contact me and do so. I have my full name and contact info listed because that is how we do business..up front. We don't hide behind screen names or get our friends who hide behind screen names to try to cause trouble or throw accusations. We are always open to professional conversation. If in doubt, call me and then call the other parties, (if they will give you their contact info).

Thanks for responding Mark. I think we'd all like to hear the whole story, but since we have no standing in the transaction to demand the truth, we could only go with the info we had. Now we have more.
There is a tendency for a person of integrity to not respond to false charges. They feel that their reputation speaks for itself and that someone that would drag them through the mud will probably reveal themselves and their true character to those that they complain to...and that the charges will carry little weight with the listener.
The problem with the internet is that these kind of arguments have a massive reach and can really do damage. MME has been referred to in many posts by many of the participants on this board. I've been to your web site on numerous occasions. Many here feel like they know you even though we have never met. I'm glad to get your side of this story.
It's hard to imagine that DJEZC would go to such lengths to trash you. He has claimed to have contacted your company on numerous occasions and that your company refused to respond in any way. You say he never contacted you about his engine problems at all.
It seems pretty clear that someone is not being truthful.
Are we to understand that that DJEZC's bill is paid in full? If so, are you interested in helping him with his problem? If he never cleared up his bill, then I have sympathy for your position as a business man.
Then again, if DJEZC's engine failed immediately and you refused to help him, I can see how he would withhold payment as his only recourse to encourage you to address his problem. Then I'd have sympathy with his position as a customer.
Is there anything that either of you want to say to clear this up?
Right now, I'm personally ticked off at one of you, just don't know which one.
Mooso

Mark,

I said my peace .. an issue like this can do more bad then good to a Good Business Reputation. If it was, is and even a hint of a money problem .. you said enough, you did the right thing .. cut the cord .. period.

QUOTE " We don't hide behind screen names or get our friends who hide behind screen names to try to cause trouble or throw accusations."

Just because Chris and I live in the same town doesnt mean we are friends. One thing you can bet on ..there is no hiding on my part .. especially behind a screen name.

Ron

Mark McKeown has had his say, and it sure puts a different slant on what we have heard from Chris.

And yet, no response from Chris??

The 'winner' in this issue, at least for me, is sliding over to MME unless we hear something new from Chris....

Larry

Mark - First let's clear up the credit card thing.

This was related to the charges for a custom set of valve covers as you should recall. We had very specific discussions about what I wanted and you assured me through the process you could deliver. Remember that you originally quoted me a cost of $350 for a custom set of valve covers?

The valve covers were supposed to be delivered as a set of anodized or powder coated blue valve covers with contrasting silver lettering engraved through the powder coating or anodizing. They were supposed to have breathers and a filler.

When they were delivered they did not have breathers or a filler and the powder coating covered the engraving making it impossible to see the lettering (Lettering that clearly advertised it was an MME product.)

When I offered a compromise to have a plain set of valve covers and have you take those back you refused what was a very fair solution to the problem.

They were returned to you and you were in possesion of them when I asked my credit card company to reverse the charges based on the fact that A) I had sent them back and was no longer in possesion of them. B) They were not what I had contracted for based on the fact that they were both functionally not correct and cosmetically not we had agreed on.

At this point I had paid you about $900.00 for valve covers I did not have, so of course I was within my rights to try and have the charges reversed.

You got the credit company to agree with you because you told them it was a custom part. Since all the discussions about the cosmetics were verbal, unfortunately I had nothing to send the credit card company proving I had ordered what I had ordered, the credit card company sided with you. Ok my loss, I eat $900 for a set of valve covers you still have to this day.

And then months later, to add insult to injury, after you finally put some hardware in the covers and etched it out with an electric pencil you tried to charge me another, what was it $450-$500? $1400 for a set of valve covers?

Mark, make sure you tell the truth when you respond. There are many reputable people on this board who were witnesses to these facts. In particular Mel Goldenberg.

AS for the cost of the engine being $21K. Your bill to me was for about $15,800.00 in round numbers. Ad to that the cost of the intake and heads, $3500.00, an Aviaid oil pan $500, an MSD distributor and ignition box another $600 and that gets you up to around $21k in round numbers. That was the total cost of the engine.

Now given that per your website you charge $15,999 for this package with the CHI heads I would think that you had plenty of profit margin in the build. I don't have any problem with the fact that you charged me almost what you charge somebody who did not provide about $4600 to their build. So you made $4600 plus whatever you you would make on the $15,999 engine package on your website.

Let me make it clear to the board memebers an Mark Mckeown, I don't begrudge Mark one dime of a fair and reasonable profit OR what he made on my engine build. He told me what it was going to be, I as an adult agreed to it.

But Mark let me ask you this. Clearly there was a reasonable level of profit in my build for you, so why did you charge me for phone calls to parts suppliers? Was that necessary? Did you really need to extract another, what was it $105, for one call to Dennis Quella to make sure I had the right flywheel, pressure plate and clutch?

Did you need to charge me for the two phone calls to Pat Mical so he could fab up the headers, that I recall you saying you wanted to copy, that would fit my car the first time without any hassle? (To be clear I was charged about $105 for all three calls)

Also wasn't it you that said you could not provide a detailed list of parts with their associated numbers because you thought I would give it to some engine builder who would turn out dozens of copies of your work? Yet you were very quick to step up and say you were interested in copying Pat's header design since they made 26 more HP on the dyno than a set of headers you tried.

I can only hope that you are man enough to respond truthfully here. As for me I would swear on any stack of bibles, appear in public court and be willing to testify as to THESE FACTS.

Mark in closing you should really think about a couple of things. If you had been a little more flexible and come to a compromise we would not be in this situation. You would not have a pissed off customer. If you had agreed to swap the valve covers for a plain set you could have gladly kept my $900 and I would have been a happy camper. If you had not sent me another bill when you took months to finally finish them I would still be ok with that also.

If you only knew how many car shows the car has been to and how many people have said they love the car you would be kicking yourself for all the lost promotional opportunities. I would have gladly have been the greatest MME promoter if you had just gone the extra couple steps.

It truly makes me sad.

CHRIS LEWIS

Oh and the latest update is that 4 rocker arms to date have failed. They are snapping like toothpicks at the rate of about every 150 -200 miles now. And please remember that the engine has only around 1200-1500 miles, all street driven, never raced and never seeing over 7000rpm

Oh and not to hide behind screen names. Let me sign this one for all

Chris Lewis
clewis@dmn.net
845-369-8889

I want to address one additional point, communication with MME.

During one of my last communications with MME, I was attempting to reach a compromise on the valve covers. I was informed by Heather McKeown that she could no longer talk to me on the phone because MME, WAS LOSING MONEY ON ME!

I don't know about other board members but let me ask you this. You get done with a 4-5 month engine build, you paid for the whole thing, and the owner is telling you they are losing money on you? ( I won't re-hash the details of what was paid, parts provided by me vs what MME charges for an almost identical package. You can see that in my first post responding)

Aren't you feeling more than a little insulted?

(The engine minus the valve covers was paid for weeks before it was picked up. In fact I was very insistent that all costs were listed up front so there would be no surprises and I could pay for everything and not be in over my head financially. I paid MME in advance every step of the way. The valve covers were not ready at the time I took delivery of the engine, their costs were omitted from the bill for the engine and were to be a seperate transaction. The engine went home minus valve covers and they were to be delivered and paid for later. When I showed up for run-in and dynoing of the engine, all that was left to be paid was a few hundred dollars, which again I gladly paid because I was excited about getting a premium engine build from an engine builder who had made a name for themselves in a national engine building competition with a very similar build.)

Anyway after being insulted what more do you say to someone like that? My communication since then has been through James Malin who works on my Pantera.

I am not in anyway embarrassed to talk to Mark, I just don't want to have somebody tell me they are losing money on me after I spent a good and considerable sum of money that I have worked very hard and made many sacrifices to earn.

THAT IS NOT HOW YOU TREAT YOUR CUSTOMERS.

FORGOT TO SIGN THAT LAST ONE


Chris Lewis
clewis@dmn.net
845-369-8889

Chris, is there any update on the cause of the rocker arm failures? At the core of all this is the fact that you have an engine that has a serious problem and I know we're all interested in the diagnosis by experts who have no loyalty to either side.
For anyone considering a Cleveland rebuild, this is important information.
Thanks, Mooso.

Wow Chris,

This has been a gut wrenching story. And the engine still breaks after every couple hundred miles. Un-freaking-believable. I hope you find out what's wrong and get it fixed once and for all. No customer should have to deal with threse issues regarless of the price... Please keep us posted as things progress.

I wonder if/how MME will reposond...

Billy
#3382

The latest update for all the interested watchers to this thread is that the car was transported last Thursday night to Big Daddy Performance in Lakewood, NJ. Big Daddy tests parts for Jesel and I was sent by Jesel to him to have the problem diagnosed.

I expect to hear from him by the end of this week as to what he finds. Obviously I am anxious to find out what is wrong and how much the solution is going to cost.

As soon as I hear, you guys will hear.

Not Hiding Behind Screen Names

Chris Lewis
clewis@dmn.net
845-369-8889

The latest is that yesterday at least two Jesel engineers were over at Big Daddy Performance looking at the engine. I don't what they did or what they took away from their time looking over the motor.

So the wait continues.

Waiting sucks

Some preliminary observations are in:

A) The springs are supposed to be 280lbs on the seat and they show only 230lbs.

B)The push rods are potentially the wrong length.

C)The valves show clear indications of floating.

D)Some of the rocker arms registered over 45 ft/lbs of torque applied on the adjuster.

E)The valve retainers were loose and did not appear to be correct for the springs.

F)The installed height of the valves was listed as 2.00, but measured 1.940.

So what do you guys think? Should an engine be experiencing this number and level of problems with 1200 to 1500 miles? Whose fault would these problems be?

Your input here is appreciated.

Based on that info, my preliminary judgement would be that it was amateur hour when they were setting up your heads. It would cause me to seriously wonder about the rest of the engine.

Michael

Not that I want to get involved, but springs do soften when they run in. so if they were 280 new, they will soften to that.
May be important to know the 'over the nose' pressure, should be around 700+
if the pushrods were wrong length were they hitting the arms ? ( the sides of the pushrods)
The shorter installed height is not so important as long as the srings are not bottoming out.
Moly retainers ? or titanium ?
I would think a titanium retainer should be a good fit.more importantly than a moly ( harder) retainer.

Chris and Pantera World

I am an honest business man and when problems like this arise, I try to stay as neutral as possible. We must all remember that we are human and not perfect. I have taken this job on to help the situation not inflate it. I hope all parties involved have the same attitude and what's important is getting to the root of the problem.. If this problem continues to be dealt with on the internet I will not continue to work on this problem. Thank You

BD@BDP

Dwayne "Big Daddy" Gutridge
OWNER: Big Daddy Performance Inc
Phone 1-732-363-6236...

Fair enough ? I respect you for at least making an attempt to deal with it, most including myself as a honest business man would not get involved.

Best of Luck.

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by DJEZC:
Some preliminary observations are in:

A) The springs are supposed to be 280lbs on the seat and they show only 230lbs.

B)The push rods are potentially the wrong length.

C)The valves show clear indications of floating.

D)Some of the rocker arms registered over 45 ft/lbs of torque applied on the adjuster.

E)The valve retainers were loose and did not appear to be correct for the springs.

F)The installed height of the valves was listed as 2.00, but measured 1.940.

So what do you guys think? Should an engine be experiencing this number and level of problems with 1200 to 1500 miles? Whose fault would these problems be?

Your input here is appreciated.

Hum, that's what, 3000 or so 1/4mile runs? The valve train just needed to be replaced 500 runs ago. Put in something reasonable. 700 pound springs are ridiculous for a street car.

The rocker arms broke for one reason, you have valve bind. The only question is why.

quote:

Hum, that's what, 3000 or so 1/4mile runs? The valve train just needed to be replaced 500 runs ago. Put in something reasonable. 700 pound springs are ridiculous for a street car. The rocker arms broke for one reason, you have valve bind. The only question is why.


Wow, where do you get your info a kracker jacks box. He tells you 1200 miles and you turn that in to 3000 miles and 1/4 mile runs. That motor should run for atleast 5000 mile before any adjustment to lash or distributor gear checking. And to asume that he's getting coil bind with out knowing is just a bad guess. Maybe get more info before you voice your lame guess.

quote:

Maybe get more info before you voice your lame guess.

My, aren't you just a lovely ray of sunshine?

With 2 posts, you are excused. However, in the future, please remember we all try to be friends here.

Larry

Maximus you sell that 86 yet ?

Ron

That would be an 88

Thanks,

Thanks, Maxuass. Nice meetin' u 2.

Mark - The diagnosis of the problems which are detailed in a 12 page written report all point to lack of attention to deatil in parts selection and set-up. I'll be bringing a copy of the report to the luncheon for any interested parties.

-Chris

We are interested in if its fixed so we can put away our towels ? LOL

Ron

Maxiumis .. that was a 1987 GTS REd ..NO ? How is it looking these days ?

Ron

Ron - Towels? What are you talking about? Well it is nice to see I again occupy so much of your time energy and thoughts.

-Chris

Crying towel ... LOL 100k car and we are pissing over 900 valve covers ? Damn !

Boy you would know if I was exerting energy ! LOL

Ron - Once again it is very touching to see that you care so much. It is so nice to have all your care and concern that you have demonstrated here on the forum. You are truly a wonderful human being. Everybody should try to be just like you.

-Chris

Why are you being nice to me ? What do you need ? I shut my ringers off ! LOL

Ron - It is nice to see you are in such a good mood now.

Well have a nice day then.

Sorry not 87 gts ,but 88 GT5-S And it's doing very well thank you.


Thanks, P-MAXIMUS

P-MAX WAAAAASSSSUUUUPPP?

Ah the other MAXIMUS bought the 87GTS ? OK names and faces got it.

I think members of the forum would benefit from knowing what was causing the rockers to break. For this reason, and this reason alone, I am leaving this thread open for now. This way, if Chris wishes to share with the forum the findings of Dwayne Gutridge, he can. Mr. Gutridge mentioned getting to the root of the problem. I think we would all benefit from knowing the root of the problem.

Mark or I will lock this thread up after Chris posts the findings of Dwayne Gutridge, or in about a week even if Chris hasn't posted by then.

In the mean time I would like to request that other members refrain from posting in this thread. I think everything that needs to be expressed has already been expressed.

I've allowed this thread to stand without locking it down first to avoid people thinking I was in some way protecting MME, because I have recommended MME to members here. Another reason for allowing this thread to stand was as an experiment, to see what would happen. I will summarize my thoughts on that at some time in the future, after Chris has had a chance to post Dwayne Gutridge's findings.

cowboy from hell

OK GEORGE - The bottom line is that incorrect part selection and incorrect set up resulted in a valve train that was out of control. A 12 page report was generated by Jesel detailing all the issues.

The issues that are happening are real and forum members should have the chance to judge for themselves the merits of any vendor they are considering using.

Chris Lewis

Scan .... copy ...paste ... and post ? Were waiting ?

I also think that it should be posted. I think that MME should be given a copy as well. I think that MME should have the right to go over the claims by Jessel and post his comments here also.

I am sure that can be done by early next week. The report is currently with Mel Goldenberg, I will get it this weekend and find a way to get it scanned and posted. I am all for full disclosure, I certainly have nothing to hide.

Chris Lewis

I'd like to see the report for the purpose of learning what causes problems. Please post and George, please leave the thread open for a while longer so that we may all learn.

Hey , Here is the info on Chris's engine results. Just click the link and enjoy.

http://preverts-lair.com/Chris's_engine_results.zip
Thanks, P-MAXIMUS

That report made for some interesting reading.
How long before thread is deleted?

I really don't see any reason that this thread should be deleted. That would be like censorship, wouldn't it?

Ok locked

Why mark, would you lock this thread when the result info just gets posted. At least give other a chance to voice what they have read in it. Pro or con.

Thanks, P-MAXIMUS

Interesting.

They way I read it it says 1)normally this kind of failure is only found in coil bind situations. There was no coil bind found.

2)It could have been caused by the adjuster nut being held on by only 1-1/2 threads. That was because the push rods were too long.

3) More likely it occurred because the pushrods were flexing because they weren't strong enough for the spring pressure.

4)The spring pressures may have been excessive or the cam profile too radical for the springs to maintain proper control of the valve train.

5)the rocker arms may have failed because the pushrods "flexed" enough for them to come out of their guides, the rocker arms then were uncontrolled and crashed on something or each other, bound and broke.

In my experience the pushrods are the fuseable link, i.e., they bend or brake first. That is what you want to keep the valve stems from the part that needs to fail. Therefore they probably aren't a mismatch at all. They didn't break. They are the super hardened ones and don't bend at all. When they fail the tips usually shatter. Ask me how I know that one.

Bottom line conclusion, the cam is PROBABLY too radical for DEPENDABLE street use, spring pressures PROBABLY too high for longevity BUT no one can prove it.

Culpret? ...drum roll here...who picked the cam? Great suspense but a predictable ending.

Incidentally I am sorry for your grief, expense and heartache. It's a lousy situation. I'm not picking on anyone or making fun of anyone. Live and learn I guess? I still am.

The rockers failed because the pushrod was too long and the adjuster wasnt caught with enough threads ... the rest is surge and bounce .. due to the incorrect geometry. dont confuse examples and theory.

Some additional information for the forum.

The springs on the head are Manley Part No. 221424-16. The retainer found on them was tool steel and did not fit the springs. The retainers were loose on the springs not fitting properly at all.

According to Manley the correct retainer is a titanium piece that fits precisely this spring set. Please feel free to verify this with Manley.

Based on the all the evidence of the valve train not being in proper control I feel that it points to two basic areas: A)Mistakes in part selection (1. Wrong retainers, 2. Improper length pushrods) and B)Mistakes in the set-up.(1. Not properly shimming the springs to limit any tendencey for resonance. 2. Improper setting of the lash adjusters, thereby negativley affecting the geometry of the push rods vs the tail of the rocker arms.)

Anyhow that is how I read the report.

Hey, Doug,
>2)It could have been caused by the adjuster nut being held on by only 1-1/2 threads. That was because the push rods were too long.

Actually the push rods were to short. A shaft system needs to have the adjuster in the middle of it's travel, Doug.

> 5)the rocker arms may have failed because the pushrods "flexed" enough for them to come out of their guides, the rocker arms then were uncontrolled and crashed on something or each other, bound and broke.

The puhrods could not come out of their guides, because there are no guides on a shaft system.

> Culpret? ...drum roll here...who picked the cam? Great suspense but a predictable ending.
Well here it comes it's, it's,it's---------_________>MME's pick!


Thanks, P-MAXIMUS

Thanks Max, got me on that one, I kept thinking rocker studs, sorry. T many Martuni's.

I would have bet that the bottom of the arms hit the spring retainers, especially with a short push rod. No mention of that though.

These rocker arms were the cup design right? 1-1/2 threads. Wow. Even I wouldn't do that.

I do know that I didn't spec the cam, and am really glad about that one.

Something else to think about.

1. Where the pedestals the correct ones ? where they the correct hieght ?
2. Where the heads milled the proper hieght by CHI ?

All this would have contributed to the incorrect geometry not just a push rod too long.

The rest of the surge and bounce theory with the wrong retainers caused the overheating on the shaft and rocker arm potentially combined with the bolt caught on the last thread ... too bad we didnt still have a broken rocker for it to be tested for stress cracks and see if over heating was the cause ? hint hint.

Ron

Push rods were too long and didnt allow enough thread purchase on the adjuster screw ..they were caught on the last threads and tore the top of the rocker off .. if you look the bottom threads are still in the rocker.

Thanks for the report,it makes for a very interesting and educational read.
My next engine is with shaft Jessels, and I notice that they say correct pushrod length is crutial, that is why they give you an adjustable pushrod, to set the correct length. With the advise given in the report I will put that technology towards my new engine.
Thanks, and good luck.
For the record I also believe it was wrong length pushrod. I have seen this before on engines down under.
Good luck.

Guys

First ... thanks for keeping things respectful. That's my biggest concern. I don't want members hurling insults at one another.

Second, I agree it would be nice to keep this thread open and give MME a chance to respond, so I'll do that. But I ask your cooperation. The chances of MME responding will be much better if the tone of the thread is not combative, accusatory, derogatory, etc. Give MME some respect too.

Lets stay focused on getting to the bottom of why the parts failed, that is something everyone can learn from. Its obvious to everyone here there is a dispute between MME & Chris, if that dispute spills back into the thread, the conditions will deteriorate & at that point any open dialog about why the parts failed will come to a grinding halt. Lets allow that dispute to remain private, and make MME feel welcome to discuss the parts failure & findings of Jessel. Deal?

cowboy from hell

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Something else to think about.

1. Where the pedestals the correct ones ? where they the correct hieght ?
2. Where the heads milled the proper hieght by CHI ?

All this would have contributed to the incorrect geometry not just a push rod too long.

The rest of the surge and bounce theory with the wrong retainers caused the overheating on the shaft and rocker arm potentially combined with the bolt caught on the last thread ... too bad we didnt still have a broken rocker for it to be tested for stress cracks and see if over heating was the cause ? hint hint.

Ron

Yea, I agree. The too long or too short of the push rod and the 1-1/2 thread business is still confusing to me. What is the difference in length of the push rod between 1-1/2 threads and 3-1/2 threads? Is that in the pedistal height or is that in the head gasket thickness?

I'm going to stick with stud mounted rockers. I understand them much better.

I didn't know that a spring can have too much clearance.

I think the reason is that these are some of the things that normally don't get looked at on an under 7000 rpm engine. I think that this is 7 to 10 thousand rpm race detailing.

I'm thinking that I wouldn't count on the springs being wrong for the application. The retainers being steel or titanium, what does it really matter? The important thing for me would be to match a CompCams retainer and a CompCams spring. They may have been the best choice for the application.

Exactly where in the manufactuters specs are the spring oscillations specified?

Doug - Let explain why the retainer mismatch matters. It was not a mismacth simply of material.

The tool steel retainer was wrong based on FIT, not just material. The retainer found on the spring did not fit snugly inside the diameter of the spring set. This then permits the spring and valve a greater a range of movement contributing to the lack of control exhibited in the valve train.

When checked with Manley it turns out that the only Manley part that fits that spring set correctly is a titanium retainer.

So again this demonstrates another instance where parts selected were not the correct ones.

None of the valve train parts inclusive of the cam were chosen or specified by me. I left it up to the engine builder.

I get what you are saying.

You have the part number of the spring. What is the recommended retainer? If these are all part of the "cam kit" then the argument should be with the cam manufacturer?

Maybe all of these "issues" contributed to the failure but I'll be you a nickel that the design of the arm gets modified so that this can't happen again. Bottom line, the arms failed and they shouldn't have. Use the stainless steel roller rockers instead of aluminum. Greater tensile strength. Would they have failed too? I don't know?

Yes. You paid the builder to make the RIGHT decisions for you. Got it!

Doug - The recomended part number for that spring set specifies a titanium retainer. According to Manley there is only one correct part number made by them for that spring set.

Again this why I am saying this was an error in part selection. Sorry if I was not clear the first time.

If I had stainless rockers I am sure that something more critical may have gotten broken, like maybe a valve dropping a head into the cylinder. As far as I'm concerned I was actually something worse did not occur requiring a far more expensive fix than waht i am looking at now.

Anyway you slice it an engine should not be breaking itself at less than 1500 street driven miles.

The valve train was not functioning in a smooth motion. As per the report a surge and loft motion was taking place creating huge stress on the valve train components.

Was it parts selection or the wrong parts shipped by Jesel.

With SS rockers you would have ripped the pedestas out of the aluminum head.

Ron

How can you blame Jesel for shipping parts the engine builder ordered?

The rocker arms were what was specified by MME, so if they were wrong for that application,

(Which nobody has said they were wrong. Jesel was given full specs of the cam and they said that the cam specs IN NO WAY EXCEEDED the capabilities of the the Pro Series Shaft Rockers.)

again wrong part selection. Again this would be the responsibility of the engine builder.

THE ROCKER ARMS WERE MOST DEFINITELY NOT THE REASON THINGS STARTED FALLING APART.

Things? What broke besides the rocker arms?

The explanation from the examiner is why he thought they failed.

They failed #1 because there was only 1-1/2 threads left to go before the adjusting cup bottomed out and because of the way the threads are cut on it, at that point was expanding the aluminum in the tip of the rocker enough to begin a stress riser.

The tensile strength of a stainless steel arm is much greater. Probably enough to have prevented the stress riser from starting. This is a strength of materials class. That's all.

Were all of the rocker adjuster cups set at the same height including the ones that didn't break?

You have hydraulic lifters. The plus/minus on the centering the plunger on them is more then a couple of threads on the adjuster. They are not all going to be exactly the same.

You use the shaft/rockers to eliminate the need for guides. The bearing assembly in the arm eliminates sway. What slop in the assembly? The arms? Again the arms are the only thing that failed.

When he is talking about excessive accelleration, he is talking about the rate at which the valve is opening because of the rate of angle of the lifter lobe. This is a roller lifter cam. What is unusual about that? That's the benefit of a roller lifter. It can open and close faster then a standard lifter cam.

Does that cause oscillation? I guess.

It didn't last? It lasted plus or minus what any race valve train would.

Should it be in a street engine expected to last 100,000 miles? AH HAH. Inspector Cleseau says NO, NO. NO, I have solvead the crime!

Kato? Kato? Where are you, you swine?

Doug -

A) I do not have hydraulic lifters. I have mechanical roller lifters.

B)The rocker arms broke as a result of bad parts selection, lack of attention to detail and poor set up of the valve train. The breakage was a symptom, not a cause in and of itself.

The rocker arms themselves were not defective in material or workmanship. They have proven themselves in more severe applications when properly set up.

It should be pretty clear what the issues were that resulted in failure and it was NOT THE ROCKER ARMS THEMSELVES

As Doug is trying to explain to you ... A CAM usually comes with recommended valve train parts PER THE MANUFACTURER for most applications ... I purchase materials every day and LATELTY everything is getting shipped wrong ...boxed wrong, packaged wrong. All I say its a possibilty ... but as you made your point in not the same words ..the engine builder should have checked all this, your correct.

Read between the lines ... all the parties involved are not going to give you a straight answer .. who did the report and who paid them to do it. Take it for what its worth and have Mel analyis it further.

The rocker arms were the reason things fell apart ..they broke ... but not the cause of the failure.

What you need to do is pull the motor and redo the valve train.

Years and years ago a person could walk into a Shelby/Ford dealership and purchase a factory built race car and drive it home. My how times have changed?

The strange thing about it was that the only thing that was not really a race part was the engine.

Sure it was hotter then the regular Mustang GT BUT it was the same engine as supplied in the production Shelby GT350 street car. Why?

To avoid the inevitable hard feelings between the two parties, the buyer and the seller when the "super duper race engine" broke.

This certainly to me is a case in point. You have a race engine with all of the warts that go along with it. The reality is that even if you paid a "gazzillion dollars" for it and Jack Roush built it for you, at some point it is going to break. As the owner of it I would hope later rather then sooner, but it is inevitable.

To me the mistake here was made by both parties in that the buyer had no idea what the nature of this engine was going to be and the seller presumed that the buyer understood the nature of the engine he was getting.

The logic that I see is that if you don't like the risk inherent to the valve train in this type of engine, change it.

Bottom line is, ALL THAT HAPPENED WAS THAT THE ROCKER ARMS BROKE. Blame it on the Bush Administration. Everything else is.

Exactly !

For the Forum Participants

As you can see still no response from those who shall remain nameless.

I hope you took the time to read the report for yourselves.

The latest is that the engine will be pulled within the next couple of weeks hopefully.

The word has gone out to the Jersey Panteras membership and I will try to pick a Saturday when the most members are available to help. It should only take a few hours to get the engine out.

I plan to re-spec the entire valve train. I have not decided at this point whether I will stay with a mechanical roller or change to a hydraulic roller set-up.

I will say given the overall poor attention to detail, cutting of corners, and the lack of checking whether things were set up correctly to begin with my plan is to thoroughly examine every aspect of the motor. I will be photographically documenting anything found.

If the engine ends up requiring a complete re-build I just hope I can have my car ready for next years CSD and other shows.

I am still absolutely blown away as to how an engine built by a quote "top builder" could require a complete rebuild with less than 1500 miles.

Thanks to all the people who showed support for my situation both publicly and privately.

I will keep you updated.

Chris Lewis

.... and where is it going after that .... whos shop ? Most times engine builders will not touch anyone elses work ?

.... years ago it was possible to install hydraulic rollers on a solid cam ,, is that still possible ?

....1500 miles thats about the same milage in a MASTERS COMPETITION ?? LOL

I have some suggestions on what to do with the unused mismatched parts but I'd hate to see them used on another MME motor

Thanks for keeping us up to date on your progress Chris. I hope everything works out with the rebuild.

Until your next update,
Billy
#3382

Ron Lombardo (accobra)- As usual your response is clearly an attempt to instigate and distort the situation.

There is no shortage of qualified local engine builders that are willing to take on this job, so no worries there.

I did say that I was going to re-spec the entire valve train, yes? I am assuming you can read, if only selectively.

If I go to a hydraulic roller set-up I will get a compatible cam ground and installed. It should have been clear to you but either you didn't read what I wrote or you are just looking to distort the conversation.

As for your comment about only getting 1500 miles, why is that funny? It is very apparent from your comments that you enjoy other people's misfortune.

Again I did not do ANYTHING wrong here.

I went with a builder whose reputation was good from everything I could research. When it came down to it they cut corners on the build leading to an early demise for the engine. Due to lack of customer service skills or really caring about their customers it became an issue that I shared with the forum so that other Pantera owners could be aware.

I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of, so why do you keep trying to push it back on me?

Maybe your answer will be something other than your usual sarcasm and sniping. If you have an answer that has some subtsance it is most welcome.

If your response is the usual sarcasm that we have come to expect from you here I am sure that the forum members will see it for what it is.

-Chris Lewis

Chris

Your limited intellegence is the reason you dont understand my statements.

Chris your pulling an expensive motor outside in a gravel driveway in New York at the begining of the winter ... give the car to a professional shop and let him fix it for you inside a shop .. other wise this situation is going to go on forever and you will never get to drive your car. Give the car to OLSEN or Cerralli ... you want intellegent conversation ..no sarcazm ..here it is !

Ron

Yikes! Do you guys drive by each others houses and shoot out the windows too?

I was going to bring my hoist but maybe I should bring a gun?

Chris seriously. Are you going to pull the engine on an unpaved driveway? I hope that is a joke?

The hoist, at least mine would be fully extended to reach the sucker and you are going to need to roll the hoist back on a good concrete slab. The wheels are cast iron and you would wind up bending the legs and maybe tipping the hoist.

Wait? Your engine is all aluminum? No problem then. Six guys lots of beer and pizza. Who needs a hoist?

The process is to pull out the car into the driveway(which yes is gravel) lay down plywood behind the car so the engine hoist can be moved easily, and pull the engine. Then drop it in the back of a pick-up and off it goes to rebuild land. Really it is not difficult at all. Hope to see you there Doug.

The engine is an iron block, aluminum heads. The last time we did this was when the old engine was pulled and it was a standard Cleveland, iron block, iron heads. Again not particularly difficult.

As it has been said other times many hands make light work. In the mean time I will be disconnecting coolant hoses, taking out the chassis brace, etc, so we can get it out in about an hour on the 22nd.

Come on guys, lighten up. We should be supportive not critical of one another. We belong to a small community, what affects one will subsequently affect the others.

quote:

Originally posted by 4NFORD:
Come on guys, lighten up. We should be supportive not critical of one another. We belong to a small community, what affects one will subsequently affect the others.

Dennis, is that a picture of our new president? Someone told me he is actualy a black guy. I thought he was Irish when I voted for him cause his name was O'Bamma.

O'bama? Oh, geese DT, I thought it was Alabama. Did I miss something? What happened?

Way to go boys! Keep the mood light and friendly, the way it should be here!

quote:

Originally posted by DJEZC:
The process is to pull out the car into the driveway(which yes is gravel) lay down plywood behind the car so the engine hoist can be moved easily, and pull the engine. Then drop it in the back of a pick-up and off it goes to rebuild land. Really it is not difficult at all. Hope to see you there Doug.

The engine is an iron block, aluminum heads. The last time we did this was when the old engine was pulled and it was a standard Cleveland, iron block, iron heads. Again not particularly difficult.

As it has been said other times many hands make light work. In the mean time I will be disconnecting coolant hoses, taking out the chassis brace, etc, so we can get it out in about an hour on the 22nd.

What an incredible saga Chris! Wish I was there to help you.

Best wishes!
Please keep us updated on your progress.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Chris

Your limited intellegence is the reason you dont understand my statements.

Ron

nice..

Chris,

Do you really think that you need the entire engine rebuilt? I would think that the entire bottom end would be ok and all you had to do was replace the valve train assembly to what ever you decide. If it's running good dispite the valve train problem the bottom end should be good. I guess you just want to be sure but I would bet that every thing on the bottom end is ok. Hope all works out for you, I'm going through driving withdrawls at the moment until I get my leaky head problem solved.

good luck, just my .02

Panterh - Thanks for the support!

74 LQQKR - Given the extreme lack of care in set-up and attention to detail found in every aspect of the motor so far, I think it only makes sense to have the bottom end examined thoroughly.

The incremental time and money to check the condition of the short block and rebuild if necessary is minor compared to the potential inconvenience of having to do it twice.

I hope it is not necessary, but I suspect it will be.

Agree, the report was interesting reading it made me really think how serious part selection is when deviating from stock. I went through many nights myself calculating every thing in the valve train on mine. So far I think that my geometry is good, time will tell.

Good Luck...

Chris, it amazes me the lack of support you've received from those that live near your town. After many years of Pantera ownership, I can tell you that is not representative of the Pantera community in general.

Best wishes.

Panther - My experience is quite the opposite. I have received many many hours of help and support from nearby Pantera owners.

Among them:

Mel Goldenberg - To be honest without his help it would have taken an extra year and many more thousands of dollars to get my car on the road. Mel has provided his facilities, his time, and too much to mention here in detail.

Pat Orlando - Pat worked with me in the snow, in my gravel driveway when I was doing suspension work.

So I have a very positive view of most of the Pantera community. Your support here on the forum has been very much appreciated as well.

Thanks again! - Chris Lewis

OK the engine and transmission are out

BIG THANKS TO JERSEY PANTERAS MEMBERS:

EHREN DIMITRI

ANTON MALNER

FRANK LISI

I COULD NOT HAVE GOT IT DONE WITHOUT YOU!

Now it is time to start planning the rebuild.

NOTE TO THE FORUM MEMBERS, IT HAS BEEN VERI QUIET, NOT ONE PEEP FROM MME SINCE THE REPORT WAS MADE PUBLIC.

Chris Lewis

OK the engine is going to Jim Malin's house next week to be fully inspected.

Given how bad things were on the top end I really don't trust anything that was done by MME.

Top end to bottom end will be fully gone through and that way any additional problems found can be fixed. Then I will decide what mods or changes to the combination should be made.

Also in the meantime I am soliciting some input from David Vizard as to what type of valve train set-up will serve my goals with regards to performance and durability.