15 inch Tire Advice Needed

Cesar,

Have TWO brand new PIRELLI P-7's, 285/50VR15 in stock, bought in Europe (4) and they were the very last one's. They're pretty expensive, but if you're interested, give me a mail to jetfly@earthlink.net.
Regards,
Fritz

Pantera Parts Connection sells P7's in your size for $450 each FYI.Just so "pretty" expensive wasn't too pretty.
Thought we'd all like to know...

Would be great to buy those P-7's, but unfortunately thy're existing on the catalogue site only. P-7'S with 285/50VR15 doesn't exist anymore for over 7 years !!! There were Pirelli's 275/55VR15 available in the past, but even those aren't reachable in new condition anymore.
Tip to all: Don't just check on OLD catalogues or out of time web-sites only. Check with the company itself first and than blow something out to the public !!
Again: I still have TWO BRAND NEW and original P-7's for the 10"-Campi-wheels. They are expensive, but real and not only listed on a Website or Catalogue !!
Regards,
Fritz

quote:

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Originally posted by NWPantera:
Pantera Parts Connection sells P7's in your size for $450 each FYI.Just so "pretty" expensive wasn't too pretty.
Thought we'd all like to know...

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I'll take your word for it Fritz,thanks for the heads up.
As an owner of 4 beautifully powdercoated original 8 and10in. Campys with the P7's, I can't believe not one tire manufacturer hasn't stepped up for what I perceive to be a n untapped market.The need for a V rated or higher tire in these sizes seems apparent to me and would justify a production run for all the classic Supercars of the world.
Just my nickels worth,I feel better now.
BTW,what are you asking for yours?
Take care,
Matt http://members.aa.net/~mattwell/newtires2.jpg

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Matt Wells
1972 #3584
NWPantera

All,

The only reasonable alternative to the P-7 285/50 is the BF Goodrich Euro T/A in 305/50. This is a GREAT-looking tire, and unlike a P-7 it won't just melt away and be bald in 7,000 miles. It is only H-rated, unfortunately, but it's still a pretty decent tire. And the price is right--about $120 each.

You see that other tires have disappeared from the market because of low sales volume--this is the LAST option left and could be gone soon if sales don't continue. I just purchased another set for myself that I don't need right now, because (1) I want to help the company keep the perception that there is still a market for these tires and (2) if they DO go away, at least I'll have a set!

Mike Drew

Matt,

Unfortunately that's the situation for the 10"-rims. However a friend of min in Europe is a pretty big guy in the tire business and he was one of the key persons who organized the "after"-production of the Goodrich 275/50VR15's few years ago. They produced a very few of them, I believe about 1000 pc's. There gone as well and there is no other production in sight by now unless a group of people with appropriate investment is willing to complete an order. However the alternative with any other tire, like the mentioned 305 H-rated one, is just a bad choice. How can people install such tires on a 10"-rim and on a car which is capable to overrun the safety margin on a H-tire ?? This is nut and shouldn't even belong to a bulletin board. FOLKS...DON'T INSTALL H-RATED TIRES on Pantera's !!! Weight- and speed-ratio is a very serious thing. Don't hurt yourself or others. BE SAFE !!
Fritz

Fritz wrote:

>[However a friend of min in Europe is a pretty big guy in the tire business and he was one of the key persons who organized the "after"-production of the Goodrich 275/50VR15's few years ago. They produced a very few of them, I believe about 1000 pc's. There gone as well and there is no other production in sight by now unless a group of people with appropriate investment is willing to complete an order.

>>>I believe the tires you are referring to are the (relatively) recent run of Pirelli P-7 in 275/55-15. These were made at the behest of Aston Martin, who used them as original equipment on their cars in the �80�s. Aston Martin still has a good supply of these tires, but they are expensive--about 450 UK Pounds each last time I checked. I�m not aware of any 275/50 VR15 Goodyear ever produced.

>However the alternative with any other tire, like the mentioned 305 H-rated one, is just a bad choice. How can people install such tires on a 10"-rim

>>>Uh, hello? BFG recommends a rim width of 8.5 inches to 11 inches for the 305/50. I admit it�s a bit of a squeeze on 8-inch wheels, although lots of people do it. I don�t recommend it since the back end of the car wiggles around somewhat with these tires on 8-inch wheels.

>and on a car which is capable to overrun the safety margin on a H-tire ??

>>>The safety margin you refer to is this: An H-rated tire is certified to run at 130 mph for TWO HOURS continuously. While it�s possible that some European drivers may have the opportunity to exceed this limitation, there is NOBODY in the USA who will ever come close to seeing the safety limits of an H-rated tire on the street. If you�re talking about running the Silver State race or a high-speed track like Pocono, that�s a different story.

And FWIW, I've seen 165 mph on H-rated Euro T/A tires more than once, with no problems.

>This is nut and shouldn't even belong to a bulletin board. FOLKS...DON'T INSTALL H-RATED TIRES on Pantera's !!!

>>>Overreacting a bit, are we? The early Panteras came with V-rated tires, but do you know what the speed rating on the Goodyear Arriva (original-equipment on the L-model Pantera) was? I�m pretty sure it wasn�t V-rated!

>Weight- and speed-ratio is a very serious thing. Don't hurt yourself or others. BE SAFE !!

>>>Obviously, somebody who has the best of intentions but is a bit ignorant on the subject. First of all, weight has nothing to do with speed ratings. As a matter of fact, the 305/50 is rated for a max load of 2601 lbs on EACH tire. Fritz, have you ever weighed a Pantera? I�ve weighed about 20 of them, and depending on a variety of factors, the weight on each rear wheel is about 950 pounds, plus or minus 50.

(Also, FWIW, a modern 17-inch performance tire like the Dunlop SP Sport 8000 335/35ZR17 has a Max load of only 1609 lbs)

Speed ratings are important if one is to ever drive his car fast enough to reach the threshold of danger. As I said, if somebody plans to drive at high speeds in Europe, or for extended periods in speed events in the USA, then they need to consider it carefully. But for a street-driven Pantera in the USA, H-rated tires are more than adequate.

(In fact, Carroll Shelby is currently selling his Cobras with S-rated tires, which should tell you something.)

Some people have the mistaken notion that the higher the speed rating, the �better� the tire, i.e. the more grip it will provide. There is NO direct relation between speed rating and traction. In fact, I have Yokohama A-008RS tires for my VW Scirocco, these are DOT-legal full-RACING tires, commonly found on cars running in the SCCA. They are super-sticky and will only last a few thousand road miles, and probably under 1000 open-track miles.

And they�re H-rated.

Looking at the BFG 305/50 again, you�ll see that it has a treadwear rating of 340 (the higher the number, the more durable the tire--my Yoko race tires have a treadwear rating of ZERO), with traction rating of �A� (the highest) and temperature rating of �A� (also the highest.) The high treadwear rating tells you that even though it earns an "A" traction rating, it won't stick as well as a super-duper performance tire.

These are certainly not GREAT tires--they can�t hold a candle to the performance of a modern 17-inch performance tire. But they are still very GOOD tires, certainly the equal of the vaunted Pirelli P-7 when it was at its best in terms of available traction and �feel� .

Furthermore, I can tell you that inflation pressures and tire condition are FAR more important than speed rating when determining the safety of a given tire. Pirelli P-7�s are renowned for having a very short lifespan. They will typically melt down to the cord in about 7000-10000 miles of driving. And when they are stored, they have a very bad habit of dry-rotting, much more so than most other tires I�ve seen.

I find it laughable that some people will drive around on rock-hard P-7�s whose sidewalls are cracked and whose tread blocks are literally rotting away from the carcass, yet believe that they are better off than the guy who is driving on NEW H-rated tires, because the old rotten ones wear a �V� rating on the sidewall. I would maintain that many P-7�s out there are fundamentally unsafe, even if brand new, if they have suffered from deterioration while in storage.

The simple fact is, there are no excellent tire choices available for the stock wheels. You can buy tires that fit perfectly, but are only H-rated (or even S-rated--112 mph for two hours.) If you are only driving the car below the speed rating threshold, then there�s no problem. Alternately, you can buy tires which are almost the same size as the original Pre-L tires with a V-rating; both Yokohama and BFG make a V-rated 235/60 tire which works reasonably well in the rear (my car is currently wearing these tires, borrowed; my 10-inch wheels with 305/50�s are in storage but will be mounted on the car later this year.)

(Early Panteras had a 215/70 or 225/70 rear tire, while the Arriva was roughly a 255/60)

If you seriously want to drive the car to its potential, then you either have to spend big bucks for the Aston Martin tires (and hope they have lasted while in storage for the past 5-6 years), or make the switch to 17-inch rear wheels (preferably with 16-inch front wheels) which is what most people are doing.

Mike Drew

I have been following this interesting discussion. Several years ago, I was at the SEMA show and spoke with an offical with Yokohama about this exact issue. The gentleman indicated that in the time it takes to set up and create the tires we need, he could create 10,000 other tires that could be sold to other owners, such as Asian cars. I asked this person if he realized that most Pantera owners have more than one car and that given a choice, would probably be faithful to this brand for supporting us and would choose Yokohama for our other cars. He didn't seem impressed with my logic.

I heard a General tire engineer speak about buying old tires. He said to be careful that the tires you are purchasing were not stored on bare cement, especially the bottom tire in a set if they are stacked up. The chemicals in the tire that meets the concrete will transfer or leach out the chemicals the tire needs to perform. Try not to purchase the bottom tire if stored in this fashion! A lot of stores keep the tires elevated on shelves off of the floor to avoid this problem.

Thank you for participating in this discussion.
DAve!

Please note the following INTERNATIONAL SPEED-ratings:

N=87 MPH, 140km/h U=124 MPH, 200km/h
P=93 MPH, 150km/h H=130 MPH, 210km/h
Q=99 MPH, 160km/h V=149 MPH, 240km/h
R=106 MPH, 170km/h W=168 MPH, 270km/h
S=112 MPH, 180km/h Y=186 MPH, 300km/h
T=118 MPH, 190km/h Z=149 MPH, 240km/h and over

H-rated tires DOESN'T belong to any Pantera. It is NOT the question, how fast you are supposed to go legally on the streets you are driving, it is the capacity of the VEHICLE you are driving. Think logic...if tire manufacturers would produce tires just to keep up with the max.-speed in each country, it wouldn't even being necessary to produce all those different rated tires. I can assure everybody as a Ingenieer, that the weight to speed ratio is the most important factor with respect to any tyre. The test procedure which the meber before tried to explain, is partly false and I don't know from where he got the informations. Don't forget that the ambient temperature and air pressure is another factor in the test procedures. But in general we shouldn't mislead folks in a deadly and wrongful direction. AGAIN: Stay safe and don't be SORRY !! Think twice before you are going with under-rated tires on a basically heavy but pretty fast car. And one more thing: The price shouldn't be the factor for safety, life isn't a question of money, it is a fact of safety. And tires can be a very dangerous factor, we all have seen that in the past on Vehicles not even half capable of the speed (and weight) of a Pantera.

Some more info:

Load Ratings

Many tires come with a service description added on the end of the tire size. These service descriptions contain a number, which is the load index, and a letter which indicates the speed rating. The load index represents the maximum load each tire is designed to support. Because the maximum tire load capacity is branded on the tire's sidewall, the load index is used as a quick reference.

Load Index Pounds Kilograms

71 761 345
72 783 355
73 805 365
74 827 375
75 853 387
76 882 400
77 908 412
78 937 425
79 963 437
80 992 450
81 1019 462
82 1047 475
83 1074 487
84 1102 500
85 1135 515
86 1168 530
87 1201 545
88 1235 560
89 1279 580
90 1323 600
91 1356 615
92 1389 630
93 1433 650
94 1477 670
95 1521 690
96 1565 710
97 1609 730
98 1653 750
99 1709 775
100 1764 800
101 1819 825
102 1874 850
105 2039 925
110 2337 1060

And don't forget TIRE - PRESSURE, another factor which could lead to very hazardous situations:

Your tires support the weight of your vehicle, right? Well, they don�t! It�s the air pressure inside them that actually supports the weight. Maintaining sufficient air pressure is required if your tires are to provide all of the handling, traction and durability of which they are capable.

Since air is a gas, it expands when heated and contracts when cooled. In most parts of North America, this makes fall and early winter months the most critical times to check inflation pressures...days are getting shorter...ambient temperatures are getting colder...and your tires' inflation pressure is going down.

The rule of thumb is for every 10� Fahrenheit change in air temperature, your tire's inflation pressure will change by about 1 psi (up with higher temperatures and down with lower).

In most parts of North America, the difference between average summer and winter temperatures is about -50� Fahrenheit...which results in a potential "loss" of about 5 psi as winter�s temperatures set in. And a 5 psi "loss" is enough to sacrifice handling, traction, and durability !

Additionally, the difference between cold nighttime temperatures and hot daytime temperatures in most parts of the country is about 20� Fahrenheit. This means that after setting tire pressures first thing in the morning, the vehicle�s tire pressures will be almost 2 psi higher when measured in the afternoon (if the vehicle was parked in the shade). While that is expected, the problem is when you set your vehicle�s tire pressures in the heat of the day, their cold pressures will probably be 2 psi low the following morning.

And finally, if the vehicle is parked in the sun, the sun�s radiant heat will artificially and temporarily increase tire pressures.

It�s important to remember that your vehicle's recommended tire pressure is its "cold" tire inflation pressure. It should be checked in the morning before you drive more than a few miles, or rising ambient temperatures or sun�s radiant heat affects it.

And by the way, if you live in the North and park in an attached or heated garage you will "lose" pressure when you leave its warmth and venture into the real world outside during winter. Add 1 psi "cold" pressure tire pressure to compensate for each 10� Fahrenheit temperature difference between the temperature in the garage and outside !!!

Hope this gives some more clear vision to the tire matters. And again, tires are coming in different ratings NOT because of the LEGAL speed limits of the country you are in, but because of the diferent weight:speed-ratios in different climates. That has nothing to do with the mixture of a tire (soft, medium, hard, etc.) just belongs to the fundamental basics for handling your vehicle within a certain safety envelope. Below and above, left and right of this envelope, there is NO safety margin anymore. And we all do better stay within that envelope.

Wish you all a successful and enjoyable PANTERA time !!!!!!

Fritz




[This message has been edited by Fritz (edited 04-29-2001).]

Mr. Panteraman,
Do you have factual, first hand dealings with Fritz which would qualify your personal attack? If so, let us know!

IMO, it is you who comes across as an idiot, not revealing your name and then giving an unqualified personal attack...

my 2 cents...
Bob Eaton

Coz (or whatever your name is)
Your story sounds like sour grapes to me! From your descrption it sounds like you got a good deal....except for the clutch probs which are a piece of cake to fix. Don't blame others for your ignorance...there's many a Pantera owners who, after the fact, wish they paid less than they did.....join the group. If the car is RUST FREE you did OK and should NOT be crying over the internet like you are!!

Kevin Perry

Kevin, or whatever your name is, write me a check for 36,000.00 and it's yours if you think it's such a great deal.

Have you seen the car ? I have, I own it.

But you are right, it's no ones fault but my own for not having it inspected before buying it. But when it's done, it will be a nice car. I just didn't want to get into rebuilding it so quick.

In all affairness to Fritz, his friend wasn't straight with him about the condition of the car. And Fritz didn't have the car in the US long enough to discover what I did over a weeks time and 2200 miles.

The car will be fine and so will I. All it's going to take is time and more money.

Thanks.
Coz

quote:

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Originally posted by Kevin Perry:
Coz (or whatever your name is)
Your story sounds like sour grapes to me! From your descrption it sounds like you got a good deal....except for the clutch probs which are a piece of cake to fix. Don't blame others for your ignorance...there's many a Pantera owners who, after the fact, wish they paid less than they did.....join the group. If the car is RUST FREE you did OK and should NOT be crying over the internet like you are!!

Kevin Perry

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I thought we were talking about tires...But an interesting discussion anyway. Anyway, here's my two cents: I have to side with Mike Drew and his tire advice. Fritz missed the point. It's not about speed limits, it's about how you intend to drive your vehicle. Nobody's going to say, "Whoa, how did I get up to 160mph. Didn't mean to do that." The H rated tire is perfectly suitable for many pantera owners' driving needs, and could be preferable for all the reasons Mike outlined (very well written, Mike). As for the recommendation from NWPantera for an apparently out-of-date catalogue item, he (she?) was just trying to provide an alternative to help the visitors of this website achieve economical means to meeting their needs. That is the greatest asset of this site. Fritz's response that we should research before we "blow" to the public was unwarranted. Also, to describe another's opinion as "nuts" or unsafe, when this opinion clearly lays out caveats on the proper use of H rated tires, is just plain rude.
I do not know Fritz. I will not make statements that he is an idiot. In fact, I'm glad he is seemingly concerned with safety. However, the tone of his responses lack any social graces. His posts convey to me the impression that he is simply trying to unload his P-7s and make a good deal of money doing it.
To all the persons posting on this site: Just keep things polite. And I always appreciate alternatives and options, so keep them coming. Sometimes they will turn out to be dead ends (like out of date catalogue items). So what?
Steve Brownlee

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I won't sound bad to readers and I frankly doesn't mean that somehow "badful" and I do not try to sale my P7's for what ever high price. I assuming that I have much easier ways to advertise my "left overs". The discussion's about those tire matters started with a simple question from another member and I just tried to help out. Somehow it went another route and my answers to some other responses on the board turning out to be misunderstood or I did explain it the wrong way. However I just liked to give some personal expiriences to the followed up messages.
Most "civilized" countries have the rules, that certain cars can't have installed certain speed-rated tires or in other words, there is common sense, that "fast" cars shouldn't have installed "slow" rated tires, without regard to the countries speed limits. At this point I like to mention, that some of us enjoying to go on a race track here and than and we do still have the same "street"-tires on the car. To judge on the appropriate ratings, it must been mentioned, that all the so called tested ratings are resulting from the manufacturers test bench, which is combined with the idealst environment, like ideal ground temperature, ambient temp and pressure measured at sea level (15�C), brand new tire, optimum tire pressure, and last no different weight loads, as we do have while driving the vehicle.
One member wrote, that he weighted many Panteras in the past. I do believe him, but the gross weight is not the point behind the weight ratio of a tire. There is a lot of differences, when the car is loaded with heavy persons, there may be some luggage or spare parts, etc. Let's say, the gross weight reaches 3000 lbs. The tire installed has max. load-index of 3500 lbs. The tire pressure is ideal, the roads are just perfect, the temperature / humidity and outside air pressure is perfect as they were while the same tire were on the test bench. Let's go driving and keep going with 70 MpH. There is a right hand corner which can be approached with the same speed. During the turn, the driver accelerates. The overall weight stays the same, but the PRESSURE weight shifts to the left rear suspension. Some shock load will be equalized by the shock absorber but the main PRESSURE weight will be carried finally from the rear left tire. Thats the point where the load index becomes important. And Steve is correct, when he's saying, that it depends how someone operates the vehicle. Thats exactly what I've said before, not the speed limits are the point, but the operation of the car with the appropriate tires. Not only the gross weight is question, but the pressure load which shifts from one axle to the other, from one side to another, etc. There are mathematical formulas to use, depending on arm, weight and moment. Hopefully nobody feels that I would make some "commercial" for selling my P-7's, but I certainly are concerned for folks who have the wrong advise. Sometimes there is a bit more than only the very visual point. I do understand, that there is a problem with finding the correct 15"-tires. But again, before anybody is going to install "under-rated" tires, they better are going for the proper 16"- or 17"-rim-sets, which most Pantera parts supplier or main tire shops can offer. Its finally less cost and safer, than having an accident with the result of a damaged car or even worse.



[This message has been edited by Fritz (edited 04-29-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Fritz (edited 04-29-2001).]

Thanks for taking the time to explain your responses, Fritz.

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