Thanks Kelly, the purpose doesn't have to do with cooling. These cars duct all the air under the car which is not good. This is like a hover craft at speed and I think can be a lot better. I want to evacuate all the air from under the car and close off the underbelly. I don't think it will look better either it's just functionally what I want to do.
Ya-know my view is and always has been: modify to your own tastes. I’ve never been a trailer queen guy or a collector that values originality in minute detail over functionality and performance. Just look at my car, a 74 US GTS. I'm routinely given grief about modifying such a "rare" car. To me, it was just a nice Pantera with pop riveted flares, GTS badges, and a clock in the dash. No offense to original US GTS owners, that’s just me. These choices are what make the car hobby fun and interesting. Drive’m hard boys.
So with all that said, if it’s what you want to do, all the power to you. I understand and even like it and you'll do it well. But at the high risk of hijacking your thread (apologies in advance, I realize it's your photos post, so delete my remarks at will), seems like the two issues discussed in the later remarks are aerodynamic flow and cooling.
I just don’t think I can agree the mod you describe will provide some measurable functional improvement in a street car and would even question it for anything except extreme competition. So, the first thing I’d have to ask is what’s the purpose of the car? (I know; fun! But..) Is it an open road race car or a street car? The air dam design and its ground clearance will drastically affect under car flow compared to the comparatively modest amount of air you’ll get through the radiator, fan, etc., and unless we’re talking very high speeds and competition where the minutia matters. I just don’t think this volume of air and belly pans are material compared to other factors. But IMO, they do look great.
After an effective air dam, the other factors that cause nose lift at speed such as the shape of the Pantera in general, the configuration of the nose, and especially the and rake of the car, are orders of magnitude larger factors than the contribution from the volume of air you can deliver under the car through the cooling system. If you have a different view, happy to hear it.
I also see a lot of people performing hood mods for the purpose of addressing cooling issues and simply put, it takes radical mods to make any measurable improvement in this regard and rarely if ever (never in the case of the small grilles) do they address low speed cooling issues. OK fellas, have at me.
Kelly
So with all that said, if it’s what you want to do, all the power to you. I understand and even like it and you'll do it well. But at the high risk of hijacking your thread (apologies in advance, I realize it's your photos post, so delete my remarks at will), seems like the two issues discussed in the later remarks are aerodynamic flow and cooling.
I just don’t think I can agree the mod you describe will provide some measurable functional improvement in a street car and would even question it for anything except extreme competition. So, the first thing I’d have to ask is what’s the purpose of the car? (I know; fun! But..) Is it an open road race car or a street car? The air dam design and its ground clearance will drastically affect under car flow compared to the comparatively modest amount of air you’ll get through the radiator, fan, etc., and unless we’re talking very high speeds and competition where the minutia matters. I just don’t think this volume of air and belly pans are material compared to other factors. But IMO, they do look great.
After an effective air dam, the other factors that cause nose lift at speed such as the shape of the Pantera in general, the configuration of the nose, and especially the and rake of the car, are orders of magnitude larger factors than the contribution from the volume of air you can deliver under the car through the cooling system. If you have a different view, happy to hear it.
I also see a lot of people performing hood mods for the purpose of addressing cooling issues and simply put, it takes radical mods to make any measurable improvement in this regard and rarely if ever (never in the case of the small grilles) do they address low speed cooling issues. OK fellas, have at me.
Kelly
A road race is not out of the question. It depends on how I feel about the car after putting this much time in it.
Having said that in any form ALL the air scooped up by the air duct is pushed under the car. That I think a major design flaw and with this much work it simply bothers me to leave it that way. We hear what everone guesses about this and that on the internet. I have listened to people tell me what a bastard engine the 400 is. I like to go beyond the "Ideal internet answer". I feel stongly that the air flow is a major design flaw of the car and I am going to make the changes to my car. Only then can we see that "A" it was a waste of time or "B" HOlly cow, I never knew it could hold the road like this! I EXPECT improvements even at highway speeds and I don't see any negatives (other then a big hole in my hood).
This car was highly modified to start so I have no quams about more modification. It is a very solid platform to start. I have an early pushbutton which is next which will remain pretty much stock when I get to it.
Gary
Having said that in any form ALL the air scooped up by the air duct is pushed under the car. That I think a major design flaw and with this much work it simply bothers me to leave it that way. We hear what everone guesses about this and that on the internet. I have listened to people tell me what a bastard engine the 400 is. I like to go beyond the "Ideal internet answer". I feel stongly that the air flow is a major design flaw of the car and I am going to make the changes to my car. Only then can we see that "A" it was a waste of time or "B" HOlly cow, I never knew it could hold the road like this! I EXPECT improvements even at highway speeds and I don't see any negatives (other then a big hole in my hood).
This car was highly modified to start so I have no quams about more modification. It is a very solid platform to start. I have an early pushbutton which is next which will remain pretty much stock when I get to it.
Gary
OH PS, If iw was just to drive down the street I would get a Honda 4 door! 
quote:Having said that in any form ALL the air scooped up by the air duct is pushed under the car.
Ok Gary, I'll have one more go with you and then drop it. I would contend the primary purpose of the dam isn't nor does it incidently "scoop up" ALL the air and deliver it under the car car via the cooling system. I guess I'm talking air dam and you're talking the stock radiator opening. -Peace. But a decent air dam will displace the air properly and though I certainly would not debate the point as to whether the tyypical widebody Pantera dam design was optimal in that regard, I also don't think it was such a flop that the majority of the air displaced by the dam finds it's way under the car due to the limited frontal area of the radiator, pressure drop through such, and the nature of the rest of the dam. I stand by my earlier remarks in regard to lift and I guess my primary point was put an effective air dam that puppy.
quote:I have an early pushbutton which is next which will remain pretty much stock when I get to it.
Man, you're killing me. All I can do now is sign off, walk out in the garage, and mumble to myself as work on my EFI
. -You have all the fun.Have a good holiday.
Kelly
True I am talking about how the air is displaced after the air dam scoops it and the air dam does work well but the ducting afterwards defeats it. You have to admidt the air dam does scoop a lot of air and to throw it back under the car is the oposide of what it was trying to do in the first place.
Happy holidays, I am getting ready to go flying.
Gary
Happy holidays, I am getting ready to go flying.
Gary
Little slow with the holidays.
Got the chin removed last night and the new chin from precisionproformance. I need to cut out more metal, blast and rebuild the channel on the inside. This is by far the worst spot on the car. It may be put on hold for a warm dry day to do more sand blasting in this area. I am going to make the screen removable.
New panel for this nose, other nose leaded and ready for final body work:
Got the chin removed last night and the new chin from precisionproformance. I need to cut out more metal, blast and rebuild the channel on the inside. This is by far the worst spot on the car. It may be put on hold for a warm dry day to do more sand blasting in this area. I am going to make the screen removable.
New panel for this nose, other nose leaded and ready for final body work:
I have to make that exact patch in the front of my car .. get rid of the marker light, patch the hole for the bumper and patch the other 2 holes for the bumperettes .. I may put the bumperettes back on.
nice work gary ...
Ron
nice work gary ...
Ron
I am a little early on picking color but it has been in the front of my mind. What do you guys think. This was the original:
I am thinking of a warm silver or a darker silver. This is not a great rendering but you get the idea:
I am thinking of a warm silver or a darker silver. This is not a great rendering but you get the idea:
Hi The pictures stopped coming in.Is there a hold on the project? Even little things are worth showing.Thanks for all the info so far
Sam
Sam
quote:Originally posted by thewop:
Hi The pictures stopped coming in.Is there a hold on the project? Even little things are worth showing.Thanks for all the info so far
Sam
Hey sam, I submited some stuf to George for PI so I have not been posting as much.
I work like a turtle. I have had some stuff going on but I still get a few things done here and there. Front Valance is done, I got all the metal work done on the belly. Replaced several channel pieces including the pads for jacking the cars with 11 gauge steel and inner suports. Drain holes welded up. Working back to the engine bay. Got all the holes and eveything welded up on one side and now begining on the other side. There was a crappy repair job done on one of the suport members. Not only was it crappy but it was not properly boxed in. I am replacing it right now:
I have also located the 15" wheels I have been looking for and found tires for them. I only have one right now but this will allow me to work out the steering geometry with new a-arms and uprights and power steering. Lot of planning going on.
Gary
Gary
Looks like a excellent fix compared to what was there.Don't you just hate having to redo someone else's work?Sometimes you wish things were better left alone until done properly.Can you show where you welded in the jack plates?
Thanks Sam
Looks like a excellent fix compared to what was there.Don't you just hate having to redo someone else's work?Sometimes you wish things were better left alone until done properly.Can you show where you welded in the jack plates?
Thanks Sam
quote:Originally posted by thewop:
Gary
Looks like a excellent fix compared to what was there.Don't you just hate having to redo someone else's work?Sometimes you wish things were better left alone until done properly.Can you show where you welded in the jack plates?
Thanks Sam
Sam that will be covered in the articles I submited to george.
That repair done. On to the next:
quote:That repair done. On to the next:
Very nice. Don't forget to drill the drain holes at the bottom.
Drain holes and spraying the inside of channels will be a project all on it's own.
My goodness me.
What an incredable posting/thread you guys. Well done, very informative... Thanks for all your trouble Gary/Ron,- you really should put it all together and publish it book form...no kidding. Gr8 job.
You ask why no one has made repro. body panels yet, well in a small way we are here in S.A. - Its taken us a looong time to get it right, but we now have 'good' molds for 'proper' carbon fiber GRP4 flared fenders, door skins, big 'bunny-ears' side scoops, door skins, frt. & back deck lids, both with standard look and also ones with much bigger vents also frt & rear. All this fitted to my 76 'skinny body'. Theres a short video/audio clip of my car, (without the carbon body work,)- but with 180's and 48IDA's being yanked-on during tuneing session...pics of the carbon bits coming up on website soon. Read about all this on my new website just gone 'live'....article on the "Ultimate Pantera" we are building using these carbon panels attached to composite Nomex sandwhich chassis. No welding only glueing. Stronger, lighter. My chassis guy says the car will come in under 1900lbs. The composite chassis is 200lbs lighter than the metal space-frame chassis for the 32x GT40 replicas he has built over the years.. See pics on the site...video to come.
I am going the full 'Mad Swede' Goran's weight loss diet; glass out, center consol out, useless popup lights out. ( we have saved 45lbs each side losing all the associated 'stuff' related to the popups) ..have gone projector lamps and perspex covers, like Goran.. Thought i'd pass this on.....Keep up the good work...
What an incredable posting/thread you guys. Well done, very informative... Thanks for all your trouble Gary/Ron,- you really should put it all together and publish it book form...no kidding. Gr8 job.
You ask why no one has made repro. body panels yet, well in a small way we are here in S.A. - Its taken us a looong time to get it right, but we now have 'good' molds for 'proper' carbon fiber GRP4 flared fenders, door skins, big 'bunny-ears' side scoops, door skins, frt. & back deck lids, both with standard look and also ones with much bigger vents also frt & rear. All this fitted to my 76 'skinny body'. Theres a short video/audio clip of my car, (without the carbon body work,)- but with 180's and 48IDA's being yanked-on during tuneing session...pics of the carbon bits coming up on website soon. Read about all this on my new website just gone 'live'....article on the "Ultimate Pantera" we are building using these carbon panels attached to composite Nomex sandwhich chassis. No welding only glueing. Stronger, lighter. My chassis guy says the car will come in under 1900lbs. The composite chassis is 200lbs lighter than the metal space-frame chassis for the 32x GT40 replicas he has built over the years.. See pics on the site...video to come.
I am going the full 'Mad Swede' Goran's weight loss diet; glass out, center consol out, useless popup lights out. ( we have saved 45lbs each side losing all the associated 'stuff' related to the popups) ..have gone projector lamps and perspex covers, like Goran.. Thought i'd pass this on.....Keep up the good work...
Thanks Tai,
Been side tracked building a trade show display:
Gary
Been side tracked building a trade show display:
Gary
Building the trade show display made a mess of the barn. I spent a good portion of the spring cleaning the barn and re-organizing. I am hopefully back on track. I finished the final sandblasting and por15 of everything but body panels last weekend. I have already welded up the inner wheel well here:
Much general welding on the chassis is done but still a little to do. Soon start fabricating. The best part!
Gary
Much general welding on the chassis is done but still a little to do. Soon start fabricating. The best part!
Gary
Still alive, not that anyone cares. Finished blasting the outside off the car. Every square inch has been taken to virgin metal and either POR15 (non-body pannels) or etch primed (body pannels). A lot of metal work done but a lot to go.
Gary
Gary