4.6 3 valve install. 2008 gt. Anyone done one?

I thought someone would have chimed in by now. Anyway not a 3 valve but Richard Barkley has a good article on what he went thru to get a modular motor in a Pantera. Dave Doddeck has another article about what he did. And I think it was MadGuy who did a 5.4 install.
Steve Wilkinson of Panteras by Wilkinson has installed a few. He went to the trouble in the 1990s to get the 4.6 swap smog approved in California. He would probably have the special parts and great info it takes. If you search this site and realbig.com/detomaso you will find info on how to get the articles mentioned earlier.

Good Luck,
David

Thanks for the reply, Its obvious you've done your homework. I called Wilkersons and yes they seem to have done up to years 03-04, but not any newer than that. I am pretty sure Its not going to much different but it would be nice if someone has done one or knows someone with a 3 valve 4.6 install.
The articles I've found don't really give a idea of what the car performed or dynoed like before and after so I think I might start posting some pics and dyno sheets on my Build for anyone else. Im looking to dive into it in a month or two.

By all means share the info. Before and after on the same dyno would be sweet. Getting the electrical, motor mounts and engine fitment, exhaust system, fuel system, as well as the cooling and a/c changes sorted out is quite an exercise. The thing that catches me out is all the "might as well" things I get sidetracked on. If you are not going with power steering, I think that you can use a power steering pump eliminator kit.

BTW, Wilkinson is currently installing two 2006 5.4 aluminum supercharged motors at his shop.

FWIW, there was a nice early car with a home-installed DOHC 5.4 at the '09 Reno Fun rally. It appears the 5.4 is easier to install since the taller block causes the gigantic heads to rise up over the inner fender panels. With the shorter 4.6s (any variety), notches must be welded in the leading edges of the inner fenders and small pieces sawed off the heads for clearance.

I am currently in the process of installing a DeTomaso/Wilkinson homologated 4.6 DOHC in my 1974 DeTomaso Pantera.

In the late 90's and early 2000's Santiago DeTomaso and Steve Wilkinson worked on the project with Ford for the Guara, Bigua (vis Qvale Mangusta) and as a replacement motor for the Pantera.

Earlier this year, Wilkinson's had a few of these complete engine "kits" still available.

My engine has a custom harness and MOTEC engine management system. DeTomaso CARB certification required engine dyno results. The chart indicated 360ish crank hp and torque in the same range. I spoke to Richard Barkley. With his tuned Ford engine management system, during "dyno days" in SoCal, he said he gets over 290 rwhp with about the same torque.

FWIW, All Rear-Wheel Drive 4.6 short blocks are basically the same in mounting geometry. There are differences in the Italian Teksid block, Windsor aluminum blocks and the cast iron blocks, but, as I say, the mounting geometry is the same. Heads, intakes, pistons, cranks, con-rods, accessories etc, varied depending on the engine. The 3-valve SOHC motor will have the same basic 4.6 block albeit in cast iron.

Here are some facts:

1) The inner fenders DO NOT have to be modified if you are installing the engine in 7000 or earlier series cars with appropriate engine mounts. The outer part of the heads need a small amount of material ground off for the DOHC motor but I am not sure if the SOHC 3V will require this - my educated guess is yes.

2) The following modifications to the engine bay are required:
i) Removal of the lower frame rail cross member that runs between the forward lower A-Arm mounts. It is replaced with a removable piece to clear the oil pan
ii) Removal of the coolant recirculating tank bracket mounted on the forward right inner fender apron for engine head clearance.
iii) Optional: Removal of the bracket holding the Emergency Brake cable lever arm and replacement with Dennis Q's (PPC) removable E-brake X-member. Makes installing the engine easier.

Optional: The engine came with a power steering pump. The recommended mod is to delete it by using a smaller belt with altered routing. Personally, I chose to replace the power steering pump with a Power Steering delete kit from KarKraft so I can always use the standard belt.

I plan to do an article on the installation after I complete it.

B.G.

andriyko I wish we were alittle closer in miles so we could compare note on the build. I am setting up a dyno day, so I will have some pictures of the car and dyno graph once I figure how to post pics and graphs, anyone got any advice on that?.
The power steering is something I hadn't thought of yet, wouldn't it be great to have powersteering?. Who do you go to get that rack?. how much?.

I am going to use the stock harness have my computer burned here locally as the guys there can tune the car and then after all is done, I will probably stick a Kenny Bell on it and see 500Rwhp?. Will the tranny hold up?, or the half shafts.

I build ls-2s in 67-69 camaros and all corvettes we integrate the wiring from the ls2 into the old cars. The gain there is anyone (dealerships) can plug in a do diagnosis.

I would love to install a ls2 but no one has done that yet.
Anyone closer to Oklahoma than Canada?

Power Steering ... Wilkinson has the rack suitably set up for the DeTomaso Pantera. The price is less than the stock rack.

I like the stock steering feel.

There is no problem Supercharging the engine. No concerns with hp. The only challenge is to set up a system where you get cool fresh intake air - otherwise the pressure is limited. Also, in order to install a supercharger you will need to move your engine/transaxle back about 3/4 inch. This means a small mod to the rear transaxle mounting lugs on the car or modified transaxle mounts.

Sorry, can't help with Is2s.

B.G.

Interesting. I talked to wilkerson and he said nothing about moving the transaxle back but I believe you to be right. When are you starting on your R&r of the motor?.

Supercharging: You will need to move the engine/transaxle back 3/4 inch in order to clear the supercharger snout pully drive from the engine firewall (unless you design a custom snout drive).

Sorry, what is meant by R&r ?

For Info, I have the Ford Cobra 4.6 DOHC Shop Manual and Engine Electrical harness manual. When I compare items in the manuals to the DeTomaso DOHC 4.6 I noted quite a number of modifications. Some examples include: Modified Intake; Unique harness; Unique engine management system; No O2 sensor; Modified coolant tubes and routing; Modified Oil pressure sensor provision; Modified engine mounts (not surprising); Modified engine to ZF bell housing; Modified starter; Modified ...

And finally, the engine and transaxle are all polished and suitably badged. A real beauty.

Removal and Reinstallation?. Moving the transaxle back. Anyone done this?, Does the transmission hit the frame?.
My car had extreme rust in the rear so we cut the whole rear frame off and rebuilt it and the suspension parts. Its now stiffer and built like a race car in the rear, so I guess I don't mind going pretty far out on the rest of the car because it will never be original now.

Has anyone come up with any rocker panels that make the car look lower, I plan on incorporating the air scoops for intake in them.

Hello Mod motor considerers. Well I took my car and another friends pantera to the Dyno to see what the rear wheel horsepower came up to and was I dissappointed!. My car has a roar and lope like a big block, The guy that I bought the car from said it was a 400 hp engine. Well My car was with new distributer new plugs, well new everything only put down 218 rwhp and 273.23 rwtq. My friends only did 194 rwhp and 240.88 rwtq. I had a perfect air fuel but the engine ran out of steam at about 5,000 rpm. Is this all you guys are getting out of your pretty much stock panteras??.
I am posting this because in about a couple of months hopefully I will have installed the 4.6 in the car, I will try to take some pics, but I am stripping the car and redoing everything at this point.

With a 351C, the whole powertrain can go back about 3/4" before the step in the oil pan hits the rear crossmember. When a big block engine is installed, the Byars Bros shift the powertrain back around 4" but that takes new motormounts, new Zf mounts, a notch in the A/C shroud and (likely) a dual-sump oil pan.

Two years ago I installed a 04 cobra engine in the Pantera with a Whipple charger on top. Since I didnt want to move the engine and transaxel further back I modified the back wall and cut the rear window a bit (you dont see much out there anyway). Also used the power steering and hydro boost from the Mustang. The steering geometry turned out to be almost perfekt without any bumpsteer and very quick. Took a trip to the dyno and it came out at 460rwhp with proper mapping it will probably give around 500hp torque was 550nm. Also did not want to cut in the inner fenders for the heads because the bracket for the upper a arm is on the outside but it took some cuting of the heads to squees down the engine. The response from the new engine over the hole rpm range is fenomenal. Most of the jobb was to get all of these f....ng hoses properly routed, used 80 feet of them (unbelivable)So good luck with your engine conversions.

Janne

Janne,

How about some pictures???

THanks,
Ron

Not Pantera related, but I have a 5.4l 3V in my daily, great torquey engines, not a big revver though.
Made almost 320 hp @ wheels n/a unopened and then I turboed it with 7 psi made over 430 hp @ wheels !
still makes all that under 5000 RPM !
Oh still... unopened !

The RBT six speed is about an inch longer than a std ZF 5 speed and Panteras have been converted to teh 6 speed so there is that much readily available. You could probably even use the longer offset 6 speed mounting tabs to gain an inch with a std ZF.

The 4 inches Jack talks about is a lot, the Byars big block conversion I saw was nowhere near that amount. Half shaft u-joints won't like turning at that acute an angle so you'll probably be looking at CV axles if you need that amount of rearward movement.

Julian

quote:

Also used the power steering and hydro boost from the Mustang. The steering geometry turned out to be almost perfekt without any bumpsteer and very quick.

Could you provide more info on this?

Thanks,
John

the latest issue of MM&FF has an article on the 3v 5.4L. Interesting stuff. They seem potent. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

quote:

My car has a roar and lope like a big block, The guy that I bought the car from said it was a 400 hp engine. Well My car was with new distributer new plugs, well new everything only put down 218 rwhp and 273.23 rwtq. My friends only did 194 rwhp and 240.88 rwtq.

As a reference, my 90,000 mile original 351C with Hall headers, Edelbrock Performer intake, Holley 670 Avenger, and Mallory Unilite electronic ignition produced 249+ rwhp on the chassis dyno.

Here are some links to modular engine conversions:
http://www.banzairunnerpantera...ular_conversions.htm

I bought a 71 Pantera with an open concept (no engine and transmission).
I also found a Mustang SVT Cobra with a 4.6 (around 300HP) for about 2.5Gs. Now the question is How about the value of the Pantera? Will my Pantera be worth as much after I put a 4.6 tha sticking with a 351. Will the EFI increase the value or decrease it ?
I dont want to sell it but it will be a lot more expensive to put the 4.6 than the 351.
How about the trans.... should I stick with the ZF ?
Did you finish the installation of the 4.6 Mike? How did it go ? Would you do it again ?

quote:

Will my Pantera be worth as much after I put a 4.6 tha sticking with a 351. Will the EFI increase the value or decrease it?

Impact on value is negligible. Value will be lower to purists and originality aficionados with the 4.6. However, the value may be higher for the horsepower hungry performance crowd.

Generally, well-sorted and upgraded Panteras in excellent condition command the higher values, regardless of whether they have a 351C, 4.6 modular, 5.4 modular, injected, supercharged, turbocharged, etc.

I know of a few Panteras with mod motors that have commanded premium $ when sold, but they were well executed cars.

Also used the power steering and hydro boost from the Mustang. The steering geometry turned out to be almost perfekt without any bumpsteer and very quick.

Could you provide more info on this?

Thanks,
John

Hi John! What information do you want?
What I can say is that since I installed a new 4.6 engine the servo pump was already there, which made it easier. It was a tihgt fit to install the steering rack from the Mustang but with some cutting with the tiger saw I managed to sqeeze it in. Had to weld in some beems to stiffening up the chassi to compensate for what was taken away.Sorry cant supply any pictures, computers are not my best sport.

Brgds

Janne

What I want to know is how do you make the 4.6 shake and vibrate the Pantera like the 351 does. The 4.6 in my 09 Mustang GT is so smooth it is disgusting. Exhaust note sounds way flat too! No thump!

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Pantera 1887:
What I want to know is how do you make the 4.6 shake and vibrate the Pantera like the 351 does. The 4.6 in my 09 Mustang GT is so smooth it is disgusting. Exhaust note sounds way flat too! No thump!

Mike

Ha, Ha !!
Put a carby on it !!
I had the same complaint when I bought my daily, it has the 5.4l 3valve motor. I said it was slow, they said watch the speedo, they are like an electric motor, no noise,but still go fast !
I eneded up doing the exhaust anyway and now it sounds heaps better.
I have a sound file here somewhere

Yes! I miss the real V8 sound you get from the cleveland. But it for sure is`nt quiet, I have tried four sets of muffler but still thinks it a bit to loudly.
Was on a trackday arrange by a car magasin and afterwards on the net someone made comments about the sounds rating a Koenigsegg as number three two a Porsche Carerra GT and first my Pantera. So it sounds, I promise. And with the bigger kompressor on it certainly feels to.

Janne

For Janne

If installing a cobra s/c motor, how difficults was the wiring setup, you had a intercooler and pump to deal with.??. How did you wire in the motor and did you use the stock clutch setup?. Also wondering if the stock guages interfaced with your new styled wiring.
I am at the point of looking a ISIS wiring harness to get around the new/old wiring. Anyone had any experience with the wiring.
My car is out of the bodyshop and were looking at the motor and zf to see how this is going to work. The 3v is narrower by alittle bit the the 4v so I am hoping it shoe horns in.

Hi Mike! To wire it up was not that difficult but there was a lot of it. You need to have really good wiring to do it. I used original Ford parts as much as possible, but if I was to do it again I would use an aftermarket system so much simplier. The Ford system have so many features that you don`t use. When it comes to your question about instrument it no problem except for the rpm gauge you need a digital to analog converter. I have change all of my instruments to Autometer and made a new instrument cluster for more gauges. If you use a cobra DOHC without kompressor it will fit very nicely in the engine bay. Good luck with you engine conversion.

Janne

From what I read in the previous reply, it seem's like the zf fit's no problem with the 4.6 (other than a space issue). I have been told by a mecanics that the bolt pattern is not the same from the 351 and the 4.6 4V and that the flywheel would not fit.
Do you have to make mod to fit the 4.6 4v to the ZF?

HI Eric,

I'm not sure what your mechanical abilities/budgets are (I will assume both are excellent given the magnitude of what you are undertaking), but deviating from the standards 351C/ZF is probably going to create a lot more issues and narrow the parts source and expertise options. There are a lot of 351 Clevelands out there (along with bell housings, clutches etc.) that have all been figured out and are known to work and fit well in the Pantera. Not saying that you can't do an awesome 4.6, but part of the Pantera magic (IMHO) is the rumble of the 351.

Good luck with the project!

Mark

I am installing a mod motor in my car as well -- so I thought I would chime in too. Good information here, and it is correct to say that you WILL spend more money on a mod motor install -- no question, and it will take more of your time or a vendor to install all of the pieces and get the wiring all sorted out. I wanted to install a mod motor because of the smoothness of the engine -- I know it is crazy, but I like gobs of smooth power; but that is just me. Taking nothing from the 351 motors because they are super cool too, but it just was not for me. One of the reasons why I like the Pantera group so much is because all mods are interesting. Anyway, if I were to go the 351 route and I was incredibly patient, I would go with one of the 351C aluminum blocks that has been talked about on this forum -- I would also install EFI fuel injection too for the easy start, and for the smoothness factor. My wife hates loud stuff, so to sell getting the car I was forced to go the route I am going, but then again, I want to take this thing on long rides, and loudness is great for a half an hour, but it would be long for hours on end..... and I want to drive it!!!

Mark

Thanks for the advice Mark ! But since my pantera does not have a engine or a trans I am evaluating all the options possible. Definitely the 351 is the prefered sound options, not too much wires and is a great engine. I know that some of the 4.6-5.4 (not only pantera) are complaining about a too smooth sound. But EFI, power steering, hydro boost and more HP availability have to be considered. There is also the budget that have to be considered. I want to circle the 4.6 option and cost before taking my decision. I have'nt took the 351 out of the decision for sure.
Tanks again

I have a 5.4 02-03 supercharged lighting truck engine that I would like to sale. It is an AER remanufactured complete from the throttle body to the oil pan wiring harness and every thing.
I am not sure if this will fitt it is a tall engine. The supercharger and intake could be removed to make it shorter. $4,500.00
In the DFW area.
email kgovett@tx.rr.com

Eric,

If you are serious about spending dough on the modular motor route -- you might want to consider the Ford GT engine and transaxle option. There is a complete setup on eBay right now from a wrecked car, I believe in the Chicagoland area. Anyway, here is the link:

eBay Ford GT & Tranaxle

It is a heck of a good deal -- don't get me wrong it is a lot of money, but damn, look what you get! They might even deal on the pricing and include shipping if they are serious about selling in this economy as well. They may also include the shift cables and shifter -- which would be an added bonus. Gobs of power, smooth shifting transaxle with NO shifting trouble, at all. You also get the power steering thing if you want, power juice brakes, and with this engine, it is dry sumped so you can really sink it in the body for extra special handling without dragging on the ground.

If you would like to see some photos of my car being done and what Steve Wilkinson has done to it, just send me a PM and I would be glad to show you what has been done to my car.

Enjoy,

Mark

Eric D,

So if you need a transaxle, it will cost you $12,000 for a rebuilt one; take that off the cost of the $29,000 and you are at $17,000 for one of the best Ford engines this side of the Cammer from the 60's -- that is the deal of the day. And if they deal it can be even better (i.e. shift cables and the shifter box).

The only problem with this scenario is getting it all to fit in the Pantera body -- this is where the cost of the mod motor that I am proposing starts to cost more money than the 351 option. There are frame and suspension modifications that really need to happen to make work properly; but man, once you do that you have power like you would not believe.

Oh yea, you will also have to seam weld all of the body together in the normal cracking spots on your car as well. But I'm sure you would want to do this if it has not been done already anyway.

Mark

Gentlemen,

I have been thinking of a 4.6 swap for a Pantera for some time, too. How about using a newer 4.6 3V out of a wrecked Mustang GT and get the Ford Racing Parts 4.6 3V installation kit that includes the custom-programmed computer, a simplified harness, a MAF sensor, and a drive-by-wire gas pedal? If you read the instructions for the kit, it works on standard 3V mod motors produced between '07 and '09. Quicktime will make a bellhousing for the application. You would need to work out coolant lines, fabricate headers and motor mounts, change to a return-style high-pressure fuel pump system, etc., but as I understand it, the Ford Racing Parts harness really takes the wiring and computer issues out of it (and has std tach outputs). I don't see this as being as expensive as it's made out to be. Sure, if you want 500 hp and custom components, I'm sure you'll shell out a lot more than what a good cleveland-based engine with the same power would cost.

Ford Racing makes "Hot Rod" camshafts for the 3V which add 30 hp to a stock engine, for an engine with a potential for 350 hp from a reliable package with an aftermarket to boot. Plus, the engine weighs around 435 lbs, dressed.

Does my thinking seem out in left field?

Mod motor lovers, a SOHC motor I would buy one for about $500-$1000 bucks with all components a/c, p/s and drop a cam in it as it only has one. You'll get the sound of a cammer and then stoke it for fun. Then after your done going through it drop on a supercharger for extra. Then you've got all the good stuff a/c, power steering and your engine will run cooler with efi and aluminum heads. Fun increases with the dependablility and the ammenities, let the performance speak for itself, the mod motors offer way more variables.
With a 3v put rods and pistons and good for 500 rwhp. I'm wanting to trick out the exhaust with x or h pipe to get that Lambo sound.

I finally noticed one small problem with the latemodel Mustang GT's 4.6 3V in relation to installing it in a Pantera: the throttle body sticks out in front of the belt. I'd bet that it won't fit without moving the engine back or doing other modifications to the engine.

Fun idea, though. It could work if it was equipped with a supercharger and moved slightly rearward.

quote:

Sure, if you want 500 hp and custom components, I'm sure you'll shell out a lot more than what a good cleveland-based engine with the same power would cost.

And THAT is why I will not be one of those moving over to the Modular motor group.

All that work, engineering and new parts, to gain what? A Ford engine from a different engine family?

IMHO, keep the Cleveland and KISS.

(KeepItSimpleStupid)

Larry

I think the gain is simple- reliability. The older Cleveland just can't compare with the deep-skirt, OHC modular motor for reliability, smoothness and longetivity under normal use, IMHO. There's something to be said about the technology used in the modular motors.

In all, the ironic thing is that the "modular" motor is far from truely "modular" as many parts are factory-specific.