Anyone with IR injection run "naked"

Sure I've driven naked.

It's dangerous though. Lots of gawkers and people leaning out the windows yelling rude things.

I found it is best to keep a kielbasa on the seat with you. Just in case some one sticks their head in the window, you just wack them in the head with it...unless she's pretty...then you just show her the kielbasa?

Well, sure, me too, all the time.

I meant to say, do you drive with your intake holes open?

Wait, let me rephrase that again.

Do you drive your pantera with IR intake velocity stacks with no screens or air cleaners?

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Well, sure, me too, all the time.

I meant to say, do you drive with your intake holes open?

Wait, let me rephrase that again.

Do you drive your pantera with IR intake velocity stacks with no screens or air cleaners?

Not regularly but I have. That often is necessary in the tuning process of the carbs.

On yours, you have no cover over them at all so I wouldn't advise it.

You would probably be fine with a GT40 type of "cookie sheet" over them?


As far as MY intake holes, I've learned to grit my teeth. It kind of filters out the bugs. The big ones at least.

Look at Goran Malmberg's clear intake box with the filter on the top. It's in the "Hemipanter" web site.

Maybe that could satisfy the craving for both looks and provide a element of safety for you engine?

Mike, look at the filter-cans Porsche uses on 911s & 914s running Webers. A problem comes up when a filter-box is built over IR intake trumpets and it's volume is too small or uses foam filters (Porsche does both). An IR intake pulses airflow so powerfully that fuel flows in an airstream in both directions- into the engine and back out the trumpet mouths. There's often a visible fuel cloud hanging about 6" over naked intake trumpets in dyno photos, at certain rpms.

If the filter(s) you choose is foam, it soon gets saturated with raw fuel. DCOEs sometimes actually drip raw fuel out the bottoms of the air cleaners. Then a backfire from any cause will light off the fuel-soaked foam and you have a raging fire inside the air cleaner(s). Two of my engine fires and one on a friend's 911 were caused by exactly this; use paper air filters only.

Note- all of this happened on Weber-carbureted engines; dunno if it also holds true for EFI, but it should be simple enough to test- it's engine-speed dependent so you need not even be driving to see a cloud begin to appear above the stacks at some rpm.

The fuel pulse is from the fuel held in suspension in a carb.

The FI doesn't completely eliminate it but it becomes difficult to detect.

The only fuel being held in suspension in a fuel injected car would be from fuel bouncing off of something in the intake inlet.

Otherwise the fuel injection shot is timed.


You really can't use any filters over ida's on an american v8. There will always be some overlap.

The key SEEMS to be to hold that to 28 degrees or less. Then you don't see the fuel plume.

Is it there? Probably.

quote:

I found it is best to keep a kielbasa on the seat with you. Just in case some one sticks their head in the window, you just wack them in the head with it...unless she's pretty...then you just show her the kielbasa?

BAWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Do you suggest the cookie sheet to keep the fuel cloud contained? Because I have EFI, not Weber carbs, so I shouldn't have the vapor cloud above the stacks correct?

I had a shop recomend foam, high dollar air filters for my 50mm PMO 3 barrel (high dollar HUGE Weber based carbs for big HP Porsches), and I only had small momentary fires until the engine fired (when hot) but yes, the foam filters smelled like gas after runs.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Well, sure, me too, all the time.

I meant to say, do you drive with your intake holes open?

Wait, let me rephrase that again.

Do you drive your pantera with IR intake velocity stacks with no screens or air cleaners?

Not regularly but I have. That often is necessary in the tuning process of the carbs.

On yours, you have no cover over them at all so I wouldn't advise it.

You would probably be fine with a GT40 type of "cookie sheet" over them?


As far as MY intake holes, I've learned to grit my teeth. It kind of filters out the bugs. The big ones at least.

being efi there are no jets or airbleeds to plug up. Probably the biggest problem is how much dust/dirt will your engine ingest while driving around . check out how much dust there is on a car sitting outside , or take a wet towel and lay it on pavement ,that fine dust will kill guides and rings quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Do you suggest the cookie sheet to keep the fuel cloud contained? Because I have EFI, not Weber carbs, so I shouldn't have the vapor cloud above the stacks correct?

I had a shop recomend foam, high dollar air filters for my 50mm PMO 3 barrel (high dollar HUGE Weber based carbs for big HP Porsches), and I only had small momentary fires until the engine fired (when hot) but yes, the foam filters smelled like gas after runs.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Well, sure, me too, all the time.

I meant to say, do you drive with your intake holes open?

Wait, let me rephrase that again.

Do you drive your pantera with IR intake velocity stacks with no screens or air cleaners?

Not regularly but I have. That often is necessary in the tuning process of the carbs.

On yours, you have no cover over them at all so I wouldn't advise it.

You would probably be fine with a GT40 type of "cookie sheet" over them?


As far as MY intake holes, I've learned to grit my teeth. It kind of filters out the bugs. The big ones at least.

You don't need to worry about reversion. It would have already caught fire with the other air cleaners if there was a reversion issue.

The cam timing in the Porsche dosen't cause blow back like an american v8 will. The 911s uses 46ida-3 carbs.

The cookie sheet is for the birds to leave their berries of offering to the god of fire without dropping them in the volcano.

Maybe now is the time to decide which is better .. looking cool or protecting the engine/car. Just sayin'

MY Porsche was a bit special, and used 50mm PMO carbs. $5000, based on webers, even shared some parts, but they still showed evidence of burning (inside of foam filter was charred), I think I was just lucky the car always started! lol

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Do you suggest the cookie sheet to keep the fuel cloud contained? Because I have EFI, not Weber carbs, so I shouldn't have the vapor cloud above the stacks correct?

I had a shop recomend foam, high dollar air filters for my 50mm PMO 3 barrel (high dollar HUGE Weber based carbs for big HP Porsches), and I only had small momentary fires until the engine fired (when hot) but yes, the foam filters smelled like gas after runs.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Well, sure, me too, all the time.

I meant to say, do you drive with your intake holes open?

Wait, let me rephrase that again.

Do you drive your pantera with IR intake velocity stacks with no screens or air cleaners?

Not regularly but I have. That often is necessary in the tuning process of the carbs.

On yours, you have no cover over them at all so I wouldn't advise it.

You would probably be fine with a GT40 type of "cookie sheet" over them?


As far as MY intake holes, I've learned to grit my teeth. It kind of filters out the bugs. The big ones at least.

You don't need to worry about reversion. It would have already caught fire with the other air cleaners if there was a reversion issue.

The cam timing in the Porsche dosen't cause blow back like an american v8 will. The 911s uses 46ida-3 carbs.

The cookie sheet is for the birds to leave their berries of offering to the god of fire without dropping them in the volcano.

I actually still have room to install my old air cleaners.

quote:

Originally posted by Robbie:
Maybe now is the time to decide which is better .. looking cool or protecting the engine/car. Just sayin'

I made a cover that somewhat covers the gap between the rows of stacks. This will help a little with debris sucked up from under the car.

I'm planning on making screens for the stacks.

As often as I drive the car, I'm not worried about wearing it out.

It's all going to be torn apart and checked/blueprinted anyways soon.

...I know this is going to 'Rain on Your Parade', BUT, What About The DIRT?
We get a Lot of 'Dust Clouds' out here in the Valley.
They're Your Rings and Bores, a Suppose.
I Think, in the Long Run, You'll Be Sorry, when the Engine Starts to Smoke!
I Speak from Experience!

NEVER Run With-Out a Air Cleaner!! EVER!!

I may reinstall my old air cleaners. There's enough room still to run them, but I'm looking at other alternatives, to change the look.

Possibly 8 single K&N style filters? Not sure how that would look.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
I may reinstall my old air cleaners. There's enough room still to run them, but I'm looking at other alternatives, to change the look.

Possibly 8 single K&N style filters? Not sure how that would look.

Something like this? These are K&N.

They won't fit your stacks though. Just the regular weber stacks AND they will be too tall for your 5" stacks.

The Weber stacks are 3-1/2" tall.

As the sat here, they were 6-1/2" as an assembly.


These help to quell that sociopath social image you may have developed?

They quiet that ridiculous induction howl that the engine develops with the open stacks. It's such a socially irresponsible sound to make?

This is Marlin's intake naked. This is when he is using it as a vacuum cleaner in the neighborhood?

...Pictures of My Filtering System, And the Distributer-less Ignition. How the Filters Look when I'am NOT Accessing the Carbs.

2.

3.

THIS is How You cut the Decklid for Clearance.
Just enough to Clear, Nothing More. In a Trapezoid Shape to Match the Trapezoid of the Deck. Then It Looks Like it was cut at the Factory!

4.

Electric Antennae

I've said it before and here it is one more time: a pristine steel decklid sells for $2500-$3500. A cut one- nothing. If you must cut a decklid for carb clearance, buy a fiberglas copy and cut that. Sorry, Mike, too late for you- I know Roger cut the one you have.

quote:

Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
4.

...The Electric Antennae! What good does it do Mounted way down beside the Spark Plugs? (I know, you only run the radio when the Engine is off). Put her Up Flush with Roof, with the Full Length in the Air you get better Reception.

The Black wire goes to the rear CC Camera. Temporarily Mounted on the Deck with a Magnet Mount.

...now we'll see what Doug makes of this...

Oooo RED! I like red!

Quick, save all the pictures before Marlin deletes them again!

Trapezoid? Trying to impress with those big words again?

All too abstract for me? Two round air cleaners with a trapezoidal base and a rectangular top.

I'm more traditional? Round peg goes in a round hole. I know, you will just machine down the square peg until it fits the round hole, +/- .0005"?

Thanks for posting.

Electromotive?

Those coils look like the Electromotive ones I had on my Porsche race car.

quote:

Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
...Doug loves to Play 'Headgames' and thinks he's Cute in doing so. It doesn't work with Me, because I have dealt with Hundreds of guys just Like Him. He's 'Common' and is Starving for Attention. But! he did get Me to 'Jump Through One More Hoop!...and show pictures of My Filtering System, And the Distributer-less Ignition. How the Filters Look when I'am NOT Accessing the Carbs.

I came really close to doing a motorized sliding roof but it would have had to open up and out and it would have acted like a "wing/spoiler".

I think the proto-type Mangusta with the glass roof panel is a great idea. I think a Pantera with a sun roof is a good idea.

Dino Martin's Mangusta had a sun roof installed in it.

When I can get them in a new car I do.

Actually my favorite really is the mirrored tops in the Corvette.

The Pantera gets me a little claustrophobic at times. The cabin is a little tight.

The t-top GT5s has got to be a great driving car, just for those reasons?

Marlin -

(In the spirit of these posts that go on for pages, and have nothing to do with the title, or the original question....)

Are you running a crank trigger, or do you have a distributor on the front of your motor?

If that is a "wasted spark" system, then basically you only have to fire it every 90 degrees of crank rotation, right?

Thanks -

Rocky

PS. Doug - you should snap up Cybo-mans GT5-S. It would be perfect for your daily driver!

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
Marlin -

(In the spirit of these posts that go on for pages, and have nothing to do with the title, or the original question....)

Are you running a crank trigger, or do you have a distributor on the front of your motor?

If that is a "wasted spark" system, then basically you only have to fire it every 90 degrees of crank rotation, right?

Thanks -

Rocky

PS. Doug - you should snap up Cybo-mans GT5-S. It would be perfect for your daily driver!

I like it but there is no place to put roof racks so I can carry my ladders and scaffolding?

quote:

Originally posted by Marlin Jack:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Marlin Jack:
4.

...The Electric Antennae! What good does it do Mounted way down beside the Spark Plugs? (I know, you only run the radio when the Engine is off). Put her Up Flush with Roof, with the Full Length in the Air you get better Reception.

The Black wire goes to the rear CC Camera. Temporarily Mounted on the Deck with a Magnet Mount.

...now we'll see what Doug makes of this...

Oooo RED! I like red!

Quick, save all the pictures before Marlin deletes them again!

Trapezoid? Trying to impress with those big words again?

All too abstract for me? Two round air cleaners with a trapezoidal base and a rectangular top.

I'm more traditional? Round peg goes in a round hole. I know, you will just machine down the square peg until it fits the round hole, +/- .0005"?

Thanks for posting.

...The Pictures are Here to Stay!"...You have NO power Here, Be Gone!" Your like the Little boy who refuses to Go Home. I Laugh With You! By the Way...What do You Need Machined in Stainless?? To +/- .0005"

Gee-se, you're SO easy?

Another pic for MTS of the individual stack filters from the top.

I'm setting myself up for screens, but also ordered a motorcycle filter like in the pic to see if it'll fit. The rubber needs to stretch a little, I need to see if it'll fit, and then I might consider running separate filters like those.
My stacks might be too close to each other though. I'll know this week. It was worth $20 to order one filter to see if it'll work.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
I'm setting myself up for screens, but also ordered a motorcycle filter like in the pic to see if it'll fit. The rubber needs to stretch a little, I need to see if it'll fit, and then I might consider running separate filters like those.
My stacks might be too close to each other though. I'll know this week. It was worth $20 to order one filter to see if it'll work.

You need to slot the rings on the filter to get the stacks in.

These K&N's were $40 each through a WD. You could get filters that look like K&N's cheaper I suppose?

Looking at my stacks I'd say the K&N probably will not fit.

I think you need to get two filters to see if they will clear each other to be sure.

The filters in my picture are on the original Weber stacks which are much smaller at the edge of the stacks rims then the spun aluminum stacks.

I saw a Hilborn Injection set up on a BB Chevy once that had one stack tall and one short pattern, so that the mouths of the bells would clear each other.

I don't know how it ran. Just saw the setup.

I've seen those staggered injection stack systems on Can Am cars. I thought it was a BB Chevy thing though. That's just what I heard or read somewhere.

It would be perfect in my situation, not completely out of the question yet either!

These little babies you refer to

I had a talk with one of the mechanics working on one of the below cars, and asked about the different length thing. His explanation was the stacks had a different length to avoid the cilinders eating ("stealing") each others air. Whether that is the true reason, I do not know...

On American V-8s with single 4v carbs the runner pattern is 4 long and 4 short.

This creates a split manifold where the short runner acts as high flow high rpm runner and the long ones, a low rpm high torque runner.

I would suspect that with the nature of a Can-Am car, that would more likely be the reason for the different lengths on the trumpets?

The adjacent intake ports on those BBC heads have different lengths. The uneven stack length makes the distance from the stack opening to the intake valve equal.

Unequal length runners in BBC dual plane four barrel intakes can be configured to do the same thing depending upon intake design.

Best,
K

Veering-off onto the subject of single plane manifolds, the drawback of single plane/single carburetor manifolds is the 4 short middle runners, and the fact that the runners are not all the same length. Its not an intentional design ... its physically unavoidable. Intake designers try like the dickens to lengthen the short runners. Those short runners kill lower rpm power, they make it difficult to load an engine on a dyno under 4000 rpm. Engines equipped with dual plane manifolds can often be loaded at 2500 rpm, and engines equipped with long runner fuel injection manifolds can be loaded at 2000 rpm, sometimes lower.

The Scott Cook manifold in the picture below represents the current thinking in how to improve the situation. Its pretty tall. Notice that single four barrel manifolds like Scotts have one carburetor butterfly above each "corner pair" of runner inlets, trying to achieve the best fuel distribution possible. The longer runners have less cross-section than the short runners, to best equalize the volumes of all 8 runners.

Long runners of equal length and volume are always the ideal, with one carburetor butterfly hanging above each runner inlet for good fuel distribution. Its where induction systems were progressing in the 1950s & 1960s until such manifolds were outlawed by just about every American race sanctioning organization, including the SCCA. Single four barrel carbs were forced on us, the development of cross-ram manifolds came to a screeching halt since they couldn't be used in racing.

Returning to the subject of IR induction, Kelly is right-on regarding the purpose of the unequal height stacks of the BBC. Again ... the induction system's designer is seeking to equalize induction system length (and volume).

Unequal length on a Lola T70....

Awesome car....

An unequal length/naked set on a McLaren M20.......

And a tall/equal length/screened set on a McLaren mk 6..........