Here are photos of the installation of the Centerforce flywheel and clutch on the Pantera project that I received in February. I am hoping it works as well.
Attachments
Images (5)
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Steve - nice work. question - do you not use the two lower holes to bolt the BH to the ZF first? Also, on your pilot bearing, do you tap or press that into the crank and what is the lubrication protocol on the bearing? Grease the inner surface?
Hi Lee,
I omit the two lower bolts that connect the ZF to the bell housing. It makes ZF removal in the car easier and omitting the bolts has not caused problems for me.
This car has an oilite bushing instead of a pilot bearing and my plan is to continue to use it. The wear pattern on ZF input shaft seems acceptable. I will put some engine assembly lube on it during final assembly.
This is the first time I have come across an oilite bushing. I have always used pilot bearings and installed fresh ones. I press them into the crank and pack them with a small amount of grease.
Here is a photo of the input shaft wear pattern. I will be showing it to Wilkinson and he might advise me to put in a pilot bearing.
Attachments
Images (1)
using a oilite bushing can gives some wearing on the inputshaft .
when a oilite bushing is wearing out it can gives problems because the clutch dont came ,,free" because the inputshaft is out of aligment.
a pilot bearing can destroy your inputshaft when this failed, or damaged by aligment the inputshaft by mounting the ZF.
My favoriete is the oilite bushing.
Simon
interesting that I was unaware you could use either. What was the original set up on the cars from the factory - the bushing or the bearing?
They came with pilot bearings. Wilkinson has actual Ford pilot bearings at his shop.
As Simon mentioned, it's not very difficult to destroy a pilot bearing when installing the ZF in the car. Now that I'm thinking about it I am surprised I have only destroyed one of them. When the engine and ZF are out of the car it is easier to line up the input shaft into the bearing or bushing and avoid any damage.
Maybe I am missing it as I have never done the install, but how do you destroy the bushing or for that matter, a bearing? I want to learn as much as I can before I do mine. thanks
Here’s an interesting and informative thread on bushings/bearings…
yes, it was informative. A lot of debate going on there!
Yes, I agree there were some differences of opinion.
I had thought the oilite bushing was the stock configuration, but only got that impression from the many discussions of them on here…. and the Boss configuration discussed.
That might not be correct…,
Not all Oilite bushings are the same, this is one area it pays to get the best and reputable quality, not an eBay Chinese product.
I am a convert to a pilot bearing after I had my ZF out 3 times and dismantled twice post rebuild as it was hanging up in 2nd gear, changing the Oilite bushing to a pilot bearing per Dennis Quella's recommendation solved the issue.
@panterapatt posted:Maybe I am missing it as I have never done the install, but how do you destroy the bushing or for that matter, a bearing? I want to learn as much as I can before I do mine. thanks
The position of the ZF in the first photo will not harm a pilot bearing. It's the angled position in the second photo that could damage it. I don't think a bushing would be harmed. It is fairly easy to install the the ZF when the engine is out of the car. When the engine is in the car it must be angled upward at the back just so to allow a smooth ZF install. It is when the ZF is tilted upward that damage can be done to a pilot bearing.
Attachments
Images (2)
ok got it. thanks Steve
It is a very satisfying feeling when you've got the alignment just right and the tranny just slides in and seats with a thunk.
To settle this, I went to the POCA Archives and pulled up all 3 of the factory's Official Illustrated Parts Catalogues. The earliest was printed in April 1972 (blue cover). The Catalogue most everyone has was printed in April 1975 (orange cover). As it turns out, everyone is correct, sort of- from the pilot bushing/bearing part numbers listed.
DeTomaso lists a pilot bearing part number for the first cars- possibly the 285 pushbuttons since it also lists a half-dozen early ZF serial numbers that definitely got bearings (the factory called them roller bearings) which Mangustas also used in an extension housing. Pantera serial production supposedly started Jan 1972.
Sometime prior to early '72 (blue cover parts catalogue) , they began listing a bronze bushing as well. All three Catalogues show both part numbers and I don't know of an earlier published factory parts list. So early '71s got bearings (as well as Mangusta gearboxes & 2 hole adapter bell housings) and after that, Ford- DeTomaso could have used either with the later 5DS-25/2 ZFs, all the way to 1987. I'd love to hear from other researchers on this subject.
Jack,
All '71 Panteras that came with the dash one ZF had a pilot (roller) bearing. This included pushbutton and non pushbutton Panteras.
I suspect that this is the same adapter, bearing and seal that was used in the Mangusta.
John
Attachments
Images (2)
Interesting stuff…. You would have thought that the ZF would conform to Ford standards right from the get-go (thereby not requiring a bushing or bearing adapter in the flywheel…)
I say this based on recently reading John Horsman’s “Racing in the Rain”, in which he states that John Weyer put in orders for prototype ZF -1s for very early GT40s, due to the reliability issues experienced using the Italian Colotti transaxles used in the first years when he was running Ford Advanced Vehicles in Slough, and developing the cars.
You would have thought he would specify an input shaft that would fit the Ford flywheel (and associated bearing) directly…
Not doubting JB’s input - I believe! But it’s just another mystery lost in the mists of time.
Maybe the ZF as we know it came from an even earlier application?
Thanks
It's more involved than that, Rocky. Ford had a bunch of changes they wanted from ZF for the Pantera, so ZF had to cast up & machine a large batch of new cases and piece-parts. But DeTomaso wanted to sell Euro Panteras immediately via his part of the contract, so he got ZF to do a transition ZF- what Lloyd Butfoy calls a 'dash-1-1/2' ZF. The dash-1s were units for GT-40s and Mangustas. The dash 1-1/2s are a GT-40/Mangusta transmission mounted upside-down with a sand-cast adapter-bellhousing and a Pantera-oriented diff case. The prototypes, pushbuttons plus some of the early production '71s got these boxes.
They mostly had Mangusta gearing (4.44:1) instead of Pantera gearing of 4.10:1 so thats why early Euro road tests noted their test Panteras had dragster-like acceleration but only a 135 mph top speed. Later, Ford swapped as many of the low ratio ring & pinions as they could find. The back-ordered parts situation was so bad for Ford's self-inflicted schedule, they started negotiations with Ashok Industries to cast up and machine ZFs under license in Israel! I have some of the early correspondence.
By working 24/7, ZF finally got caught up but by then a few hundred transition ZFs were sold- mostly in Europe & Asia. You can find the serials of all those dash 1-1/2 ZFs in the Archives, or from Lloyd. And you're also right about 'other models': before the GT-40s, an early application was for Fendt of Germany's big road construction rollers! One old time Euro Pantera guy found a wrecked Fendt somewhere and told me he actually used salvaged parts from its ZF on his car!
...Is it My turn to Talk??
MJ
Attachments
Images (1)
Yes please
I use to Machine these Oilite Bearings in REAL Oilite. Pictered Above.
No less than 19 Machining Operations in a Tolerance of 0.0005" +- On the O.D. and on the I.D. .0015" per side .0030" Total Max., and allow for Heat Expansion of 2 Differing Metals. "For a Perfect Fit Everytime!"
It took Me more than 3 Hours to Machine 1 Bearing. "You can't Rush Precision" "Machined to Absolute Zero Error Concentricity and Axial Alignment".
...who was it who wrote, on this Forum, "These are Nothing more than a High School Shop Project" Come forward and Identify Yourself, Coward! Another, Insisted on Referring to them as 'Bushings', I refused to Sell to Him, take your act down the road!
When I first started producing them for every 351C Pantera and Exotic that Had a ZF Transaxle. Up to and Including a Real GT 40 with a 427 Engine worth 1-1/2 Million Dollars. And Hot Rods, Kit Cars, Experimentals and other exotics with a 351 Cleveland, custom ordered and fitted to their Transmission. Also Windsor Engines, and a Steel Bearing Carrier and Oilite Bronze Bearing for a Mangusta.
From the first day they cost $25.00 Shipping FREE.
As the Price of Bronze Tripled the price rose to $135.00 Shipping FREE. Because they are the best they can possibly Be. CNC cannot cut these because a CNC Lathe Can Not put the Love into them.
I NO Longer offer them. I Stopped Machining them, as there are people here that have the wrong Idea of what these are, and have smeared My Skill and Reputation. Sure, they Know 'What' they're doing!...?? But, they really do Not Know what they are Talking About. You 'Killed' the Machinist who Created the Golden Bearing!
The Bearing (Never a Bushing) Shown in Buchanans' Photo Is NOT My Bearing! It IS a Cheap Bearing CAST Mostly in IRON with Barely 20% Copper, In China, and can still be purchased from Vendors for $16.95 It is Not a Machined Bearing from Oilite Bronze Billet, and the Fit is Questionable. The cheap bearing 'WILL' wear-out the Input shaft snout of a ZF Transaxle...Because it Has a Very High IRON Content of near 75%, it IS Magnetic! You get what you pay for.
The Oilite that I used was SAE 863 Sintered Bronze with UP-T0 1.0% IRON and is NON-Magnetic. It is a Powderd Bronze that is Compressed under 200,000 Lbs. of pressure, with a Light Oil SAE 30 within the Pores of 20% by Volume. As Oilite wears-in, or is heated as in Machining Operations, the Fine Oil Oozes out. You Don't wish to put it in the Pocket of your best Slacks. Check Wikipedia and search for yourself.
Real Oilite Can NOT wear out shafts, shafts are 'Gear Hardened'! Check it with a file, at the End Only, it will glance-off without a scratch.
'Machined Thicker Beefier to Last Longer'. Look at the Mark of Position, of the Thinner Bearing on the Input Shaft. The Thicker Bearing added another 0.200".
I at certain times have tested Oilite for durability, How? I put the Bearing in My Lathe, spin it up to 3000 RPM, bring the Tail Stock up to it, holding a 'Dead Center' also gear hardened! And I cram it in, lock the Tailstock in Place and Crank the center feed up to say 500-600 Pounds of pressure. 'Tested to Destruction'. What happens is the Sintered Bronze squeezes out, crumbling. The Center...Not so much as a Scratch on it!! It Melds from high points to low, and will self-Align to any mis-alignment of Shaft, Bellhousing to the 351 Crankshaft, while in use.
NO Longer Available. Those that have one, Congrats. I created about 35, and more of these, sent all around the World. It was My Greatest Pleasure to Serve You!
Awesome. Thank you Marlin.
Also, I did put a magnet to mine a few days ago and it is definitely iron. I will be replacing it. My best guest at this time is a pilot bearing.
P.S. A steel Needle/Roller Bearing when Dry, will Tear-up the Shaft. And Never 'Pack' MORE Grease into a Needle/Roller Bearing!! Heat makes it Flow, by Centrifugal Force it oozes out all over the Flywheel and Disk. The Clutch Starts Slipping and the Grip NEVER Comes Back!! And, Don't ever pack the Bearing Pocket with grease! In Fact Clean the Pocket all out with a Degreaser.
You've Been Warned!
MJ
Very cool document on ZF Development…
It aligns with the information discussed above…