Cold air intake…. I am going down!!!!!

I thought some of the early Panteras had a cold air snorkel that went to the bottom of the car and a lower air scooper…. Am I mistaken?

Anyway - another good project!

My '74 had one that, as I remember, ended up somewhere in front of the right rear wheel.

going on a tangent here . . .

many decades back, supposed studying on the engineering floor of university library, I spent most of my time engrossed in the automotive section.   Ie, Jim Hall's Chaparral's contribution to CanAm.    even though I was still dreaming of a Pantera, I thought/stetched of using a squirel cage fan on the water pump pulley,  ducted to suck from road and exhaust out engine screen.    fresh air to cleeaner and "ground effects"

"going down" for cold air is better than Gas Monkey sail/scoop!

You might watch the Air Cleaner dyno testing before going the route you plan.  

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=153247265330893

@panterapatt posted:

You might watch the Air Cleaner dyno testing before going the route you plan.  

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=153247265330893

I just watched the episode of engine masters…

It was interesting how there was this big jump going on between 350 hp supporting air filters and then went straight up to 600hp…

to translate it onto my application, or as a matter fact, any Pantera that has the original 351 Cleveland you can bolt on anything they showed! my car being a 10/1972 build year (probably low compression 280 some hp on a good winter day in 1972 ) Unmodified best to my knowledge but with a Holley on it, I would be very (VERY) surprised if I still hit 300 horse..  

the best comparison is probably the dual snorkel Dodge air filter…. Both intakes equal approximately 12 in.² which is about what I have with 4 inch diameter pipe…  I think I’m golden up to 350 horse and  I do not have to deal with the intake noise.
building this air filter arrangement is not a very big undertaking and if it’s crap, I hang it on the wall and think of something else!

Once I’m gonna build an engine for it I might go a different route or an upgraded route more likely…🤔 (a redo of the deck lid over the air cleaner will be necessary)

Very good Facebook video. Thanks.

I'd always thought about a snorkel sort of an intake going up from the carb, back and up over the roof into the free air (not so good for the rear view mirror) or a right side mounted scoop ducted back to a closed airbox. In either case you'd have the coolest air available under positive pressure. I have no idea how much power that either of these items would add - perhaps someone here wiser that I has. In the end, I decided new heads or a cam would probably net a bigger horsepower increase per buck or fabrication hour.

There are lots of posts regarding this. This one might be of interest.

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...th-the-elephant-ears

My objective in this thread is to find cooler air in a place that is away from my ears… carburetors like unrestricted, calm air.. (that I can almost do - I want a filter) and carburetors like to suck straighten in (that I cannot do without ugly modification)

I do not think that my air cleaner mod will effect the horsepower in a negative way…

the real proof will be the noise inside..

regarding the comments above:

looking for ram air will cause several challenges….. and the end result to solve these challenges will be:

1) fuel injection                                               2) unsightly, huge air scoops to get out of the boundary layer!

none of those solutions are appealing to me!
I am looking for 1970’s look… preferably everything fixable with things you have in the frunk or find at the side of the road (auto parts store)

just a sexy exotic 70’s sports car upgraded with good low-tech parts.. (the one concession, I am making is with the electric power steering and which I can justify because that thing is just a glorified wiper motor LOL)

I appreciate “LOW-TECH” more than ever! Programmable Fuel injection & ignition (yes you will go with both) will haunt you… You will tinker with it on and on and on!  I just accept the Flintstone technology and drive with a smile on my face!

Since I have this C7 Z51 Corvette (40000 + miles)… OMG, you have to drive it for 500 miles so it learns what happened if you change certain parts  - it’s plain stupid! ABS traction control, stability control and on and on and on - I hate it! You have a corner where you wanna swing the ass out you have to pull over and go through the touchscreen menu first and blah blah blah blah blah…

back to analog - back to “the driver is in control”  not a stinking computer!

if you ever see me in the Tesla, you know I got murdered and somebody put me inside!

look at me, I was ranting 😳

how did that happen…..🤔

apologies

I did this on #3776, per the air intake sensor on the FAST unit the air is closer to the ambient temperature. It is much more noticeable on cooler days. Once it gets hot in SW Oklahoma it does not matter where you grab the air from it is HOT.

@alasorsa posted:

I did this on #3776, per the air intake sensor on the FAST unit the air is closer to the ambient temperature. It is much more noticeable on cooler days. Once it gets hot in SW Oklahoma it does not matter where you grab the air from it is HOT.

Yes… this solves a few problems!  Nice job!

Did this change, make any difference in the sound inside the cabin?

One of the main contributors to noise in the cabin is an exhaust drone that you hear at between about 1800 and 2500 RPMs.

In my opinion, on my car - this is the predominant noise source.  You can read about it here…

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...060#2586368011486060

Anecdotally, I have heard….

1. Some people have fixed it (eliminated the drone) by cutting baffles out of their ANSA mufflers.  This requires that you cut open the muffler cans, remove parts, and install angle iron flow diverters, and then weld them back up.

2. Some aftermarket mufflers say that they don’t have it the sound, but I can’t tell you which ones do, or don’t.

3. Some people say that the sound is channeled up to the roof or the drivers ears to the roof through the air space in the metal pillars behind the drivers / passenger window (the cavity acts as a waveguide) and that putting insulation in these channels can help to reduce the sound transmission.

(I have not verified any of these by experiment.)

Rocky

PS. Muffler mods can be accomplished after you get the car driving, so you don’t try to fix a problem that you may or may not have….

Modifying the placement of the air intake or filter, has not effect on the noise inside the cabin.

LeMans, "cool air" from under the car may not be as cool as you'd think. Air close to the pavement is hotter than that 2 feet up, and the Pantera exhausts some but not all its hot air from the radiator undeneath, too. Before you go to too much effort, get a couple of cheap temp sensors and find the cool spots.

The '71s had their air piickup in the right front as you propose, but the 72-up had the pickup 180 degrees  from there below the left rear- both with a sheet metal 'choke stove' as part of the fast warm up system, so intake air was preheated by the exhaust manifolds!.

Love the color scheme yellow/green livery . Lotus, 1992? I’m pretty sure I saw Johnny Herbert drive one of those in Montreal..

@Ed Harbur posted:

Love the color scheme yellow/green livery . Lotus, 1992? I’m pretty sure I saw Johnny Herbert drive one of those in Montreal..

I love it too!!!!!

Made the model to see if I liked that color scheme… And yes, I do

already did my wheels

Looks great. The gold wheels add a lot. I was watching F1 this morning and was reminded that the Aussies are kind of fond of this color scheme as well.

...Here is My solution for 'Cooler' Intake AIR.

1) Intake Air Is NOT to be Taken from the Engine Bay. Windows to remain in Place.

These side scoops are small and feed into the sealed air box. According to the EFI inlet air temperature, the air is 45 degrees cooler with the air coming in from the scoops vs having the scoops disconnected and pulling air in from under the car. The air box only sits about two inches over the engine screen and does not effect the rear vision out of the back. The rear deck did not have to be cut for the air box. The engine is the car is a 390 cubic in Fontana block stroker producing about 550 horsepower. At wide open throttle for an extended period of time, the engine does not run out of air.

To understand the issue we need to understand the aero-dynamics. The big hole in the engine cover is a low pressure area created by the air flowing over the roof (same principle as a carburettor). This depression sucks air up from around, e.g. under the car. Side scoops will help to feed this low pressure volume, as will a top scoop.

You may get some turbulent air from the roof flowing into an air-filter extension, due to the vacuum suck of the engine. It won't be as much as ram-air from a scoop.

It’s been a year… now I have all the essentials on the car done and I’m a bit smarter (i think) and I am going to collect and make parts for the cold air intake ….

this K&N filter (I almost can put both my hands in there) will live in front of the right rear wheel…. Once everything is built, I will oil it up…

on the carburetor side I’m gonna try to be tall So the carb can pull air in “relatively” straight… “lid”  5.5” high from the upper carb flange…

I think that the air hoses on the 64 Ford 427 Fairlanes were 6"? You can get close reproductions to them at one of the reproduction sites like Crites.

I have a 750 CFM demon carburetor… Each Venturi has a diameter a bit less of 36 mm

That equals 1018 mm2 multiplied with 4 =4072mm2 - that is the smallest part of the whole intake system… (that equals to a hole of 72 mm diameter)

3.5” (88.9mm) tube = 6207mm2

4”  (101.6mm) tube = 8107mm2

I think by having twice the volume that this should easily accounted for boundary layers and friction losses… at least for the tubing portion… (over 1/2” spare all the way around)

Going bigger shouldn’t do any thing..

(sorry for running in metric, but I can visualize that)

Flow has nothing or little to do with it. It is about making restriction of flow as low as possible/practical.

Long hose is restrictive. Even with supercharging, restriction to flow is a part of the equation.

Often people just build what looks right to them. I am no exception.

On a Pantera, the best source of unrestricted cold air is from the roof area.

The real reality is that there is no noticeable difference until you go to Bonniville and attempt to set new records, not on the Freeway.

If you are driving around in Death Valley in the middle of the summer, don't expect to find any free horsepower there. Infact, you are likely to be loosing 30 to 40, aka, "bad air".

Long tube is restrictive if the diameter is not large enough to allow for the boundary layer just to chill out… if you have to move ALL the air in the tube to meet the demand on the other end, then you have a problem. (breathing in through a straw)

it’s a question of demand… Demand determines dimension.. And in this case, the maximum demand is restricted by the throat’s in the carburetor.. and the carburetor is the correct size for this engine build..

… look at “modern” Fuel injected engines with tubes, 3 feet long going to the air cleaner (Chevy Camero For example) those tubes are very slightly larger than the throttle body and definitely not smooth inside (Corrugation) and they only do that to suck “cold” air in  -  Increasing power would be only a side effect.. Lowering the intake charge temperature To fight detonation is more likely the reason.

Especially in case of the Pantera, I’m doing it for having a cooler intake charge, I just don’t see the point of sucking the Hot air steaming off the engine into the carburetor and therefore Giving it a better chance for pre-detonation .. 100° outside temperature is definitely a lot less than what the engine would suck in..

it’s not about racing. It’s about a happy engine.

Yes, sucking from the roof would be great. BUT I don’t want it….

@Ed Harbur posted:

My '74 had one that, as I remember, ended up somewhere in front of the right rear wheel.

My 1973 L model had that snorkel attachment that pulled air from under the car. I doubt that you can call it cold air induction since the air is coming through the radiator and under the car. It is certainly a little better than having the air come in after it goes up the front and side of the engine. I designed and tested my cold air induction system using small side scoops that replaced the rear side windows and a sealed air box. My testing showed that with the hoses going into the air box disconnected, the inlet air temperature was 40 to 45 degrees hotter than with the side scoops attached. The system was also tested up to 120 mph using a digital manometer and the pressure inside of the air box kept increasing as the speed increased. We tested it in ten mph increments and the pressure increase was only in ounces. This inlet air temperature data is coming off on my EFI system on line dash monitor. The only other way to pull cool air into your engine is to put a scoop on the roof of the car, but then you are going to limit your rear view visibility. The boundary layer issue came from people trying to get air into their engines with both small and huge side air scoops and not using a sealed air box. There is more air pressure coming up from the bottom of the car and thus does not allow the side scoops to bring air into the engine. Just look at how much more surface area there is under on both sides of the engine as compared to the inlet area of the side scoops.

Do you think that this simple air filter with a top intake sucks in a litle less warm air than the air enclosed under the roof panels?

I know the downside is cutting the plate, but with my intake manifold, it's almost mandatory anyway.

I would guess it’s as bad as it could be…

look at this video… It may not directly represent what you have, but I would think it’s just sucking hot air out at that area…

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...a-aerodynamics-video

@rene4406 posted:

Do you think that this simple air filter with a top intake sucks in a litle less warm air than the air enclosed under the roof panels?

I know the downside is cutting the plate, but with my intake manifold, it's almost mandatory anyway.

With the engine idling, you might be able to get a little bit of cooler air into the engine. As soon as you start to drive the car, the air from under the car is going to force its way up and out, which will overcome any cooler air that you might get from the area above the rear deck. If you want to see how the air flows, just put some yarn on the rear deck outlet area, then have someone follow you. When I tried that on my Pantera, the yarn was being pushed straight out at less than 5 mph. It proved what I had already suspected about the air flow pattern, but it was a fun test anyway.

The "sugar scoop" directs air down from the roof. That is what it is for.

We're talking about air temperature, not pressure, and I doubt that the air coming from under the car after passing through the radiator and then the headers is cooler than the air coming directly from outside.
Regarding pressure, the area behind the rear window is under depression, and the underside of the car is under pressure, BUT with front and roof spoilers, it's much less obvious, and when it comes to aerodynamics, intuition is often misleading, even for experts.

For the roof spoiler, I think there is a position to respect and that mine was installed by a previous owner too far forward, but I did not want to plug the existing holes. So it is there more for aesthetics than for efficiency

@panteradoug posted:

The "sugar scoop" directs air down from the roof. That is what it is for.

Those roof spoilers are designed to smooth the air flow over the top of the car. When Hall Pantera was selling those roof spoilers it was said that it created downforce? Hall copied it from some Ferrari model from the early 1980's. If you want to see how much air that spoiler is actually directing into your engine bay, just put some yarn on it and drive the car. I bet you will see that the air from under the car will push the yarn back to the rear of the car. This test with yarn isn't as dramatic as putting the car in a wind tunnel, but the results are the same. If you are using a carburetor, how are you measuring the inlet air temperature? I am sure that some type of temperature monitor could be installed in the intake manifold or the air cleaner base. In order to prove that any device is actually working, there needs to be some type of before and after testing.

@jffr posted:

Those roof spoilers are designed to smooth the air flow over the top of the car. When Hall Pantera was selling those roof spoilers it was said that it created downforce? Hall copied it from some Ferrari model from the early 1980's. If you want to see how much air that spoiler is actually directing into your engine bay, just put some yarn on it and drive the car. I bet you will see that the air from under the car will push the yarn back to the rear of the car. This test with yarn isn't as dramatic as putting the car in a wind tunnel, but the results are the same. If you are using a carburetor, how are you measuring the inlet air temperature? I am sure that some type of temperature monitor could be installed in the intake manifold or the air cleaner base. In order to prove that any device is actually working, there needs to be some type of before and after testing.

I completely agree.

I've also seen drawings where the air from the roof was supposed to pass under the roof spoiler and thus reduce the negative pressure above the rear hood........

That spoiler is from Detomaso, not Hall although he may have been making his own at some point with Bob Byers who was the fiberglass master then.

What exists as far as airflow is a function of the cars original design.

Those wind tunnel studies are largely at maximum vehicle speeds which doesn't affect most of us, most of the time.

Some have been successful at cold air ducting from beneath the car but all areas are somewhat subject to dead air issues and locations next to heat sources.

Battle as you will over what is wrong in the design or if you will, what is wrong in the Universe. I personally am not willing to die on this anthill. Carry on as you will.