Pantera FLAT Firewall build Documented and with Photos

...Doug and I have toyed with the Idea of 'cutting Down' the pump neck on an existing water pump, see pics.

The RED mark Indicates the Level of the Neck and Top of the Bearing, 1.5" Cut Down. The Blue Mark Indicates the Level of the Hub Height.

The Bad thing here is, to Press the top bearing down the 1.5", even if there were room to move to, the Two 'Sets' of bearings will be Together, increasing the 'Belt Tension' Force/Leverage on the Forward Bearing. Doug knows there is a Short and 'Whole' Bearing Set Available for the Shorty Pump. That is Designed to take the Loads. See Pics.

...comparing the Cleveland pump I hold in My hand to Photos of the Windsor 'Shorty' pump; On this Cleveland pump I see 'circle' impressions in the casting, where there are Drilled Holes in the Windsor Pump, and Drilled Holes in the Cleveland pump, where there are 'Undrilled' Bosses in the Windsor, just a Couple. Leading Me to believe Both Pumps started out from the Same Casting!* Most of the Holes are Correct. Seems all I must do to adapt the Windsor Pump is Drill out the Undrilled Holes and make sure the unused holes are sealed up. As reported in some info I have found. Last the Windsor pump, Minus It's Backing plate, should butt right up to the Cleveland 'Timing Chain Cover'.

We'll see and I will report back Soon. Awaiting Delivery of the Windsor Pump.

* Excepting for the (2) 'Twin' Bores on both sides of the Intake Port, of the Cleveland Pump.

The 'Hatch' size is Square at 21.0" Height and 19.5" wide, with the Lower, drivers' side corner cut off to clear the Shift linkage and Large Rubber 'Gromet'. You have a 'Cable Shifter'?! Then You can take that side all the way down for a clean looking square Hatch, but must plan for routing of the 2 cables.   

Agreed that it would be far simpler and safer to adapt the short W pump if possible.

That would be my prefered method. I have not put all of the alternative pumps together on the bench as of yet but it would appear that all of the necessary internal components are available to cut the nose on a C pump and reassemble safely and dependably?

My only comment is that it is unknown if the "shorty" pump is short enough and if not, if the cut nose of a stock height will fill the bill.

As far as how you solve the cover issue, I have no objection to a different solution.

It is simply not know if that aftermarket billet "flat" pulley has a workable offset? It likely is going to be adjustable by relocating the mounting position of the flange on the output shaft and by fine tuning that with shims.

If you are really good with the locations, then the shims may not be necessary and you might see them as an affront to your working accuracy? To me, it doesn't bother me.

I'm already accustomed to using hardened shims on brake calipers in order to center the rotor accurately between new brake pads. That is a common occurrence on race brake set ups.

I am not necessarilly seeing the reason why the fan mounting flange needs that much clearance to the nose casting. I would think something like .100" clearance rather then .750" (or more) as shown is necessary?

In my case, I am the "little pig" (the story of the three little pigs) that works in wood. "If it ain't wood, it ain't no good".

It just so happened that the dimensions available in birch veneered plywood worked in both shaping, stacking height combinations and sound proofing.

It was just my  instant vision and it works out without calling in NASA with their lazer cutters and HAZBAT suits.

One of the things that I do, other then amateur brain surgery on the kitchen table, is to build custom wood cabinets. Sniffing all of that wood dust doesn't get you very high but it IS very cheap!

All of the accessories need to be moved back and I believe that the alternator also needs to be moved down as well. Everything drives off of the rear pulley groove.

Remember also, that if you come up just a little shy of complete clearance of the new bulkhead cover, you could pull the Boss Wrench trick of reversing the engine mounts to move the drivetrain back another 5/8 to 3/4" but I don't think that is necessary?

Another advantage of using the plywood is to make the first layer in two pieces so that it isn't necessary to remove the entire panel to do front engine service. That is in consideration of the closeness of the seat backs and the struggle to remove the first panel as a result.

In addition, I have a roll bar with a horizontal brace that closely follows the bottom outline of the rear window , so additional clearances is required there if one piece on the first panel, but not required if in two pieces.

Interlocking that seam with plywood is done with a router reverse rabbiting cuts as well as radiusing the outer edges of the panels.

"oink, oink, wood is good!"

...Let's stay with the Topic and Not Rant-On. That's why I started a Dedicated Thread. Thanks.

You seem to be 'Back-Peddling' on Your Idea. Perform your work and post some pictures, keep us posted. I will tell You, you will need a 25 Ton Press. I have a 10 Ton and I don't think that will do the Job, by Experience. Last, If you do Not CORRECTLY Support/Back-Up the Aluminum Casting, You WILL Break It!

As a Machinist, if It doesn't Fit, I Will MAKE it Fit!! I'm NOT going to Move any Engine BACK, and Spoil the PMOI!!

I'm actually 'Hoping' the 'Flat' Pulley is Wrong! I will use it as a 'Comparator' to Machine My Own, 40 Degree, Included Angle for V-Belt. And I can Make it Smaller (4.9") as the 'Over-Drive' Pulley You now see Mounted. Maintaining the Max. Overdrive.   

I have worked in wood, also! I have Created Dozens of projects, Exclusively in 'Old Growth Black Walnut', 'CoCo-BoLo', and My Favorite, 'Sonoran Desert Ironwood', add 'Honduran/Nicaraguan Rosewood'. I work Only with Precious woods, it makes the Project More Valuable and Most Unique.

You would not believe what I have Created!

Now, Back on Topic.

My lips are sealed. Fingers too.

...Personally, Doug...I KNOW You have the Skills to Do a Disassembly and 'Press-Assembly'. If You have doubts, it's best to Question with someone who can point things out to you. I searched the Web and Found a Manufacturer, 'We Build Ford Water pumps'. I Learned Something Did You know this Company Presses The Bearings AND Seals IN while using 3 Different Sealants.

I think You Can Do this!

P.S. I Never said I didn't want Your Opinion posted here...I just don't Like that You call Yourself a 'pig'. All the Best! We Will Succeed!

I was trying to get the dimensions of the "short pumps" but getting details like that is like pulling hens teeth. Virtually impossible.

I suspect that it may still be too tall but I'm not in the mood to go buying all this stuff when I am still trying to clean out unused and never will be used stuff.

Actually, I'm more like the big bad wolf? All the wild grey hair.

Got a link to that water pump site? I do not find it in a search.

...Good Morning.

The Standard 'Hub' height* for the standard 351C Water Pump is 5.75", the Height of the 351W 'Shorty' Pump is 4.25". Hense, 1.5" Shorter. See pic. For the purpose of eliminating the 'Hump' on a Pantera, the Alternator must be mover back 2.0" and the Original WP Pulley must be moved Back 3.0". With the Shorty pump taking up 1.5", and my plan to raise the hatch mounting surface on a 1.0" Square tube frame, leaves a Clearance Discrepancy of 0.5". I will deal with at the time of the test fit.

*Hub height is taken at the Face/Mounting Surface of the Pulley. pic included and there is this: (the 351W Shorty WP is Listed as a '302-351W')

...when I can compare both pumps, side by side, I will post what I discover. What we already know is, the Windsor 'shorty' pump:

The Intake is on the correct side, Drivers' side, Left Side of Engine.

Correct Rotation, Clockwise when mounted against the Cleveland Timing Cover.

The Majority of Bolt Hole Alignment is Correct. Those that are Not, can be Machined.

The Pulley Mounting Flange is Universal and Correct. Excepting for the Pilot Diameter of 0.75". More.

Stay Tuned