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Definition of Car Condition

chuckmeltonchuckmeltonMember
I’m almost done with setting up the Online DeTomaso Registry project, I’m at the point where I need to define the condition of a car into one of about 10 general categories. This is my draft. Review it using your car as the example.
Let me know what you think of the categories. Now is the time for comments, not after the work is done – grin!

Chuck

Original and Unrestored
A car is as it was manufactured, including the known flaws. Original Paint (minor repairs allowed, just not a complete repaint). Worn items are allowed to be replaced (Tires, battery, and parts from the Factory like switches). The driveline may be rebuilt but to original specifications with Factory (Ford, DeTomaso & RBT ZF) parts. Dealer installed items such as nerf bar, luggage rack, radio (Becker) and antenna.

Original and Restored
A car that has been restored, repainted (Original Color) and/or refurbished to original specifications using Factory parts. Design flaws have been fixed (Example: cooling mods and electrical) are allowed. It has the parts from the same year and model as new.

Modified - Show
A car that has been modified such that it does not qualify as “Original”, and is in a NEW-like condition. This car is likely meant to be displayed in a car show, and is typically not driven over 200 miles a year.

Modified – Driver
A car that has been modified such that it does not qualify as “Original”, and is driven on a regular basis of more than 200 miles a year.

Race Car
A car that is no longer licensed for public roads, and has been modified for pure racing.

In Restoration
A car that is currently not drivable, but is receiving work to restore it to useable condition. Some progress MUST be every 90 days.

In Storage
A car that does not have current license registration, and/or has not been driven (legally) in the last 90 days. This car can drivable, ignoring problems of storage, just not driven. If it is being restored, but with no progress in the last 90 days.

Damaged
A car that is severely damaged or rusted and is not currently being worked on. The car is complete enough to restore.

Parted Out
The car has been stripped of parts and only the shell remains. It could be restored, but is not currently being restored.

Destroyed
This car physically no longer exists, with no hope of recovery. Perhaps it was crushed, cut up, or scrapped. Paperwork may exist, but the car no longer exists.
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markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
Am I correct that based on the above, these two cars would be classified the same way: “modified driver” (assuming both are driven all year 'round more than 200 miles)? The white one was originally lime green from the factory, but is (was) otherwise Original and restored (but actually only repainted and not restored).

If a car is stored for the winter, is it considered "In storage" ?

I think it might be worth expanding the categories to include cars that are original in appearance and equipment for their year and yet distinguish them from true resto-mods and/or recreations (as GT5S conversions from a 72 — just for example).

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chuckmeltonchuckmeltonMember
Good point Mark!
Is the 2nd car a Pantera?

I'm thinking of adding a category for those cars where the body was modified. Really intended for the Pre-L that got the GT5 or the L that received the Group 4 body kit. But if this example you show has a Pantera VIN (Tell me what it is!) then it would fall into this new group.

I'm also wondering how to split cars that are mostly original (like the white car proposed)
from the "Modified" category.

Original and Unrestored is a pretty rare group, but they do exist. Car 5226 in the ProvaMo Registry is one. See the photos.

I think as it stands most cars qualify for the Modified - Driver group, and I'd like to split that somehow to differentiate cars that have received a LOT of mods, like non-351C engines, aftermarket guages, carbon fibre hood, deck, dash etc...But where does one draw the line?

There can't be 7,500 groups!

But the Modified - Driver group really needs some suggestions, thus my post!

Perhaps a category for Modernized Original ???
For example, still the 351C, but with a Holley (or equivalent) a manifold that maintains the use of the original engine cover... Campy clone wheels, stock but recovered seats, original dash,replacement steering wheel (Momo, protipo La Carerra) Ansa exhaust still required...

Obviously this is going to be a "personal" decision by the one submitting the entry to the Registry.

Where does a car belong that is basically original, but with 'some' changes?
Say non-stock paint color, chassis kit, sport seats, some engine mods but matching numbers block? What about minor things like a couple of added switches, or a Boom boom stereo?

Food for thought!
D detom (Guest)
Man this looks like areally complicated undertaking. Because there is so much grey area. Like a guy who shows his car, races at club events and cruises on the street and stores it all winter?? ANd who is the one judging condition? The owner might think his rust bucket is a show piece and a show car winner may rate his car poorly just because he has seen some done up better than his. This is real tuff to figure out. Also it depends on what day you ask me what I think of my car. Some days it is the modt wonderful Pantera ever built in MOdena, other days it is a worthless rust bucket that gives me nothing but trouble.
panteradougpanteradougMember
Who makes the decision on the condition of the car? Is it the Registrar or is it the person reporting to the Registry.

There is always going to be controversy on the condition.

For example. If the car was originally lime green from the factory and the current owner changed the color to red during a full restoration to "as delivered". Is it modified?

It isn't as simple an answer as one might think.
If it was originally the worst, least desireable color from the factory and now is the best most desireable?

Remember the Ferrari Daytonna Spyders? There were only like a dozen originally built by the factory and when they hit a million there were suddenly seemingly hundreds?

I think there will never be a 100% answer to these catagory issues. They will always be a source of contention.

Personally, I go even further into the absurd.

If one is representing a car as 100% accurite ground up restoration. Say the car is a 67 435hp Corvette.

The owner states that the car was "restored" with a two step clearcoat polyurethane paint.
How can you say that is 100% original? It isn't.
It has been modified from the original factory specifications.

The original paint was acrylic laquer. To me that is misrepresentation. Who gave that guy license to change the paint? The factory?

When the values of the cars start to get ubsurd like Hemi Cuda Convertables. Anything that another person states, such as color changed, is going to subject that statement to Court challenge simply because the perception of market value of the car is being damaged.

Even if you state that the car was restored from a total wreck. That damages the value of the car to buyers.

Best to stay away from the entire condition reporting in a Registry. You will never know when you will be served and asked for a million in damages because of what you said.

Things can get real nasty.
chuckmeltonchuckmeltonMember
The decision is the submitters, and based upon their judgement.

I am changing the title to Condition and Use.

It is the 'Use' part that I personally consider important.

And the category Modified - Driver, is really DRIVEN, as some consider the term Driver to somehow mean 'less than'. I personally consider it a compliment!

I've received some good input, and I'll repost the current draft after I get some more comments, and I've had time to edit/write.

Please continue to make suggestions and comments!

Chuck
markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Melton:
Is the 2nd car a Pantera?


Chuck, it is a Pantera: a 1972 Pantera L Conversion (#1014), known as the Dia Costa, it was built as a replica of the Carabo show car (see attached).

The categorization of thousands of Panteras into a few categories is not going to be easy, and given the points raised above regarding who decides, may not be worth the effort.

Who will this be done for? Prospective buyers will not benefit because the information can't be relied upon. That said, how about:

CLASSIFICATION:
Unrestored: as it left the factory except for maintenance items
Restored: exactly as it left the factory except for maintenance items
Stock modified: period correct alterations (it could have left the factory looking like this)
Modified: correct, but not period correct modifications (looks like a newer or older factory correct car—eg: GT4 or GTS conversions)
Customized: updated or heavily modified (monster 427 motors, GT5 conversions on pre-L etc.)
Simple additional entries such as: destroyed, under restoration, museum display, can replace the above categories for vehicles that are not roadworthy or driven.

CONDITION:
1 – As new
2 – Excellent
3 – Good
4 – Fair
5 – Poor
6 – Wreck

USE:
Display
Race
Show
Driver
All of the above.

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garth66garth66"When speed is the only thing that counts"
quote:
Best to stay away from the entire condition reporting in a Registry. You will never know when you will be served and asked for a million in damages because of what you said.

The other issue is maintenance of the registry. The condition of many of these cars is constantly changing - accidents, paint jobs, flared conversions, restorations, engine rebuilds, other upgrades and modifications, etc.

Condition is too subjective for a registry. Focus on statements of fact. Example: Car was originally a lime green 72 pre-L. Current upgrades/modificatons include Ferrari red paint (2003), 180-degree headers, simpson 5 racing harness, and fluidyne laydown radiator with twin sucker fans.

Ok, thats my 2-cents.
lmguylmguyMember
Condition in a regisrty sshould be a guide and not an absolute. Like a picture... you can take a real good picture of a real bad car, post it on the internet and be real disappointed when you see it in person. The "condition" rating should come with a date. Under Mark's proposal, which i think works well a car should be able to be changed in the registry to reflect current status.I can see a "driver" turn into a "show" car with enough effort or even vice versa.....

just my thoughts.
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