Doctors vs. Guns

I have to ask, if there were no doctors, how many deaths would there be? I mean people go to doctors for a reason.

This ratio comparison ignores incompetence and malicious intent. As a realist I have to point out a critical flaw in this comparison. The doctors "accidents" surely includes both of these while discharges from guns killing people clearly does not. Freedom to bear arms is great, but you can't deny that this freedom comes with sacrifices that are not beneficial to society.

At least when a patient dies under the care of a Doctor, the intent was not death.

When someone dies from a firearm, the exact intent of the device has been fulfilled.

Larry

"At least when a patient dies under the care of a Doctor, the intent was not death".

"When someone dies from a firearm, the exact intent of the device has been fulfilled".

Are you saying that there has never been a doctor who has intentionally killed some one??.. Are you saying firearms are only for killing people??... What is the "exact intent" of a firearm?...

"but you can't deny that this freedom comes with sacrifices that are not beneficial to society".

The above statement is possibly the most rediculous statement I ever heard, I'm sure it MUST be a mistake.... Perhaps you should think that one through a bit more, or at all...

quote:

What is the "exact intent" of a firearm?...

You can use a chair as a step stool, but that isn't exactly what it was intended for.

You can use your wife's kitchen oven to bake and cure your powder coated suspension pieces, but that isn't exactly what it was intended for.

You can use a big pile of sinus medicine to make some methamphetamine to sell to the neighborhood speed freaks, but that isn't what it was exactly intended for.

And sure, you can use a firearm for target practice, but that isn't what it was exactly intended for.

You asked "What is the 'exact intent' of a firearm?"

A firearm's exact intent is to kill.

Larry

One thing to consider is that many of those 80 million, have those guns with the intent to only kill game (Deer hunting for example), never with the intention of killing another human. So in theory would we have to ad in veterinary doctors and the accidental deaths to that figure? Also what about target shooting? I shot trap and skeet for years,with specialty shotguns made just for that sport. Those guns were not made for the intent of killing, but actually for sport. I am not trying to stir up more controversy, just giving points to consider.

First let me say... I approach this conversation with a smile. Lets see if we can flush this out... Guns do not have an intent, people do. You simply cannot say that guns are made only to kill, it's just not true. That is a personal interpritation of a simple machine. What if you went out to your shop and saw your car door open, then you walked over there and a guy a foot taller than you, 30 pounds heavier and 20 years younger, looked down at you and said " I'm takin' this Pantera wether you like it or not".. Then he started weilding YOUR tire iron... What would run through your mind??.. I know, "Go ahead, take the car"... Not me, or most other prople. Most other people intuitivly would say... " I wish I had a gun right now"... There is no anti gun argument that stands the real world giggle test... You guys, please don't count off for spelling. I went to a unionized "progressive" public school...lol..

I'm really surprised at the 'accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups is 1,500' ... Now what would be the voluntary death or should the question be: persons shot at, or wounded, or killed by a firearm.... We are no longer in the Old West yet popular culture TV, Playstation, XBox , Realife is twisting perception to desensitize the true danger of real firearms. I don't beleive the true meaning of the constitution is as represented today..

Well, we all can agree, the constitution was written taking certain things for granted which are no longer true today. However, I would say it is the absolutly the wild west out there. Infact, far worse!.. You will wish you had a magnum w/a vented barrel and a laser sight if the wild west stops by your house... Or, what if some A-hole w/nothing to lose decides he wants your car, you can give him your car if you want to. He's not getting mine. It would be cool to live in a perfect world, I'm with you there. It would also be cool to live in space on a killer planet or to live in the "rock candy mountains". But, unfortunately thats not the way it is. You must be ready to protect yourself and your family, you may only get one chance to save a loved one or an innocent person. Thats just one guys opinion....

PLT-1 Sorry I was not aware that it was that bad in Florida.
Canada is a much more peaceful place. Yes, there may be pockets were gangs can be found but overall I would say a place where 'you would not be worried to let your wife walk alone at night' - Gary Carter.
Why is the 'threat level' so high?
My neighbour is the chef marshall for Canada1 and has explained how your president (sorry your last president) was always on very high alert.. Hell you should see the US embassy here in Ottawa, they have barricades in the middle of the street. Totally unwaranted in this country.

Well, this is an interesting topic. It really had nothing to do with Panteras until you inclded the threat of that guy with the tire iron.

But actually, that guy would probably grab your gun, shoot you and your kids and then take your cat. Then the number would be 1503.

And Denis, there are more guns per capita in Canada than in the US. We just don't shoot people as often. So maybe "intent" has something to do with how and where you live.

quote:

Originally posted by David B:
Well, this is an interesting topic. It really had nothing to do with Panteras until you inclded the threat of that guy with the tire iron.

But actually, that guy would probably grab your gun, shoot you and your kids and then take your cat. Then the number would be 1503.

And Denis, there are more guns per capita in Canada than in the US. We just don't shoot people as often. So maybe "intent" has something to do with how and where you live.

Absolutely David. Car jackings are when people who are too lazy to break into your car when you are not there and steel it, walk up to you when you are stopped at a traffic light, shoot you in the head, open your door and drag your body out, then get in your still running car and drive away. It happens here in Memphis all the time. It realy isn't the guns. It is the people who we have to live with down here who do most all the killng. It was once pointed out that there was less violence in Bagdad than in Detroit. Probably even more so today.

Mark Twain said it best:

"There are three types of lies. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."

This is from "truthorfiction.com":

quote:

This email is obviously the humorous creation of a gun enthusiast.

We don't know when it was written but not all of the statistics appear accurate.

According to the U.S. Department of Health Services there were about 780,000 licensed physicians in the United States in 2008, so that figure seems good.

Finding statistics that everybody agrees with regarding deaths caused by doctors is a little more difficult. Dr. J. Mercola released a book in 2000 titled Doctors are the Third Leading Cause of Death in the US, Causing 250,000 Deaths Every Year. His breakdown, however, largely focuses on errors in hospitals and includes 12,000 deaths by unnecessary surgery, 7,000 due to medication errors in hospitals, 20,000 due to other errors in hospitals, 80,000 from infections in hospitals, and 106,000 from the negative effects of medications.

Regarding gun owners, figures from 2002-2001 from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives said there are 294 million gun owners in the U.S., a much higher figure that that quoted in the email.

According to the National Rifle Association there were 776 accidental deaths from firearms in 2000, a lower figure than in the email.

That's all interesting to know but the premise of the email is weak and, as we said, mostly aimed toward humor. Comparing doctor deaths to accidental firearm deaths is meaningless, especially because doctors are dealing with people who are sick in the first place, some of whom are at high risk for death or have gone through high risk medical procedures.

And continuing on with statistics...

Wikipedia states that gun ownership per capita in the USA is 90 per 100 residents. In Canada the number is 31.5 per 100 (same rate as Sweden). But even so we do tend to use them with much less frequency up here. It's hard to aim properly when you're freezing your nuts off.

I love these threads.

Mark

quote:

It's hard to aim properly when you're freezing your nuts off.

Thanks for injecting some humor into this.

Larry

The smell of death is in the air. I'm gonna have a bountiful harvest soon.

No, not from shooting victims or negligent doctors.

Heart attacks are plentiful amongst old dudes wearing their shorts too tight.

The Reaper

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
Thanks for injecting some humor into this.
Larry

Any time Larry! I actually though the whole thing was supposed to be a joke. I mean really, it was started by Dennis!

Gee, just some thoughts tossed out always stirrs up some serious debates here! Oh well, at least it stepped up the posting activity here! As Mark said, common guys it was me who started it!

LOL ... it is pretty funny this post.

What most funny is I;m scared of both Doctors and Guns about equally !

Ron

Mark, 294 million gun owners? As of the last census the population of the US was about 300 million. Only 6 million people don't own guns? So damn near every man, woman and child in the US owns a gun? I think that number may be off just a tad.

quote:

Originally posted by Husker:
Mark, 294 million gun owners? As of the last census the population of the US was about 300 million. Only 6 million people don't own guns? So damn near every man, woman and child in the US owns a gun? I think that number may be off just a tad.

You are making the wrong assumption. (see my previous quote by Mark Twain) The statistic doesn't state that 9 people out of 10 own guns, it says there are 90 guns per 100 people. I own 5 cars so I'm making up for four poor sods who can't afford to screw the environment themselves (without my wretched excess), and in the process I skew the stats to make it look like we all own one car — statistically speaking.

In actuality, the most recent stats on gun ownership by household for the USA and Canada (that I could find) place the percentages at: USA 39% and Canada 29%. The actual deaths by firearms (all causes incl. accidental, suicide and homicide) were: USA 14 per 100,000 people and Canada: 4 per 100,000 people (see my previous comment about freezing our nuts off).

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
Mark Twain said it best:

"There are three types of lies. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."



And continuing on with statistics...

Wikipedia states that gun ownership per capita in the USA is 90 per 100 residents. In Canada the number is 31.5 per 100 (same rate as Sweden). But even so we do tend to use them with much less frequency up here. It's hard to aim properly when you're freezing your nuts off.

I love these threads.

Mark

Mr. Clemens' quote certainly applies to anything pulled from Wikipedia as a source.

quote:

Originally posted by Fahrenheit351:
Mr. Clemens' quote certainly applies to anything pulled from Wikipedia as a source.

Normally I would agree, but in this particular case, those stats do appear to come from a legitimate source.

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org...s/about/mission.html

and were reported in major international media:

http://www.reuters.com/article...dUSL2834893820070828

I love this argument and could take either side. In my wonderful world of advertising, we don’t bother with the truth, since we can always find statistics needed to support any particular point of view we want to present.

Here are a few interesting ones:

2.2% of all U.S. respondents reported that they were the victim of at least one assault or threat with a gun in the last five years. In England and Wales, that number was 2.4%. Gun ownership is a legal requirement in Switzerland. Switzerland has the second highest handgun ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world. So watch out for drive by shootings next time you’re in Zurich.

As for doctors, here’s a good one…

“What’s the difference between doctors and God?”
“God doesn’t think he’s a doctor.”

Anyhow, if you knew as many doctors as I do, then you too would rather spend time with gun owners than doctors. That is, until you get shot, at which time your criteria changes quickly.

much of the unlawful firearm violence is caused by repeat offenders who either slip through the legal system or those who get out of prison and repeat offend. a decade or so ago, baltimore started a program where when applicable gun offenses were federally prosecuted and some real real serious jail times were handed out. guess what folks, gun violence plummeted.

chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, and it has one of the highest gun violence rates in the country, makes sense huh? remember when florida first passed their concealed carry law, the critics screamed that florida strreets would be running red in blood. actually what occurred was just the opposite, crime went down and has stayed down.

a gun is just a tool, it allows a weaker defender to overcome a stronger attacker. i am a firm believer that for family/home/self defense there is no better equalizer than a competent individual armed and educated how to utilize a firearm. in a home invasion situation, there is no better tool, if you think your cell phone will save you in an emergency situation, you will probably become a victim and not a survivor.

what is never reported is how many times just the appearance of a firearm will stop the commisssion of a crime. many times (especially in jurisdictions like chicago) the intended victim will never report the stopped crime, who wants to deal with the beaurocratic (sp?) aftermath?

concealed carry for law abiding citizens, long jail terms for evildoers, and if you really want to get into placing blame for gun violence, try illegal immigrant drug dealing gangs.

nazgul

As Nazgul has stated gun is a tool but even in a home invasion situation. Two years ago an individuals home was raided by the police on Montreal's south shore. Unfortunately the cops did not check the fact that the individual had a permit for a 357 magnum (permit might have been lapsed). Anyways he shot thru his bedroom door and killed a cop. Still, he got charged and got a couple years inside. As David stated arguments for either side could be found. I just find it terrible than in 2009 we are such a violent/scared society. That energy/drive/money could be used for such better cause. A gun is for hunting game or target practice at the range. Cops should learn to use in discretion(aim to wound not kill) along with taisers. We are not in a movie looking to ratings.
As for car raids we'll end-up with side flame thrower like they have in South America?
Denis

Its not always doctors verses guns; some doctors were known for using guns.

This one's name is Holliday

"Butte, Montana - November 5, 2007



Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26, probably believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11-year-old Patricia Harrington after her father had left their two-story home.



It seems the two crooks never learned two things: they were in Montana and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine.



Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12-gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.



Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the first to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals.



When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical help could arrive.



It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45-caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. That victim, 50-year-old David Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab wounds to the chest.



Ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC, CNN, or ABC news........an 11-year-old girl, properly trained, defended her home, and herself......against two murderous, illegal immigrants ...... and she wins, she is still alive."


Just to add a little fuel to the fire........


Mark-Why not quote those two sources first instead of Wikipedia? An unreliable source, even part of the time, is still an unreliable source.

Speaking of unrealiable sources....the story you just told is an urban myth

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/homeinvasion.asp

If you want reliability... Use a revolver.

to denis c, you state in effect that cops should learn to shoot to wound, unfortunately once a firearm is displayed, the decision has already been made that deadly force is appropriate in the situation. "shoot to wound" is not practical and does not work, stress levels are way too high, a dynamic situation exists, the distances and time frames involved do not lend themselves to pinpoint body shot placement, a bullet is not magic-it does not stop an offender immediately-it just disrupts part of their biology, the rest of the offender keeps going (it ain't like "in the movies"). there are many after incident reports of evil-doers soaking up bullets and they are just like the energizer bunny, they just keep going. for an example look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout , one of the offenders was shot 6 times, the other offender 12 times before they were stopped.

a very controversial topic we are on, however i think it is safe to say that a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen is an active threat to no one, whereas even a broomstick in the hands of an aggressor is a deadly weapon.

I will say this hot topic has been very docile. I feel that with all of the hoopla that is associated with guns it is rather blown out of proporation.
It is a right to keep and bear arms, and until the constitution is changed this will keep going.. I do think that all of these new laws to limit the legal gun owner is totally bogus. The criminal could care less about the law and more laws will not solve that. Limiting a law abiding citizen will not stop the criminal.
Maybe its going to be like Germany prior to the war where guns were banned by Hitler and the new wave of politicians can brag about how safe they have made this country???
The extreme political base is still trying to limit our rights since they cant get the Constitution changed. Such as this bill which WILL make law abiding citzens criminals.
HR-45
Jeff

Like they say "guns don't kill people, people kill people"

Each side of the argument will draw on statistics that support their view. I grew up in the UK where it was (and still is) almost impossible to own a hand gun, our cops were not armed...that is until the criminals got guns and the cops found out a wooden truncheon doesn't stop a bullet. The UK vs. US stats that David B quoted tell the story, legal gun ownership in the hand of law abiding citizens is a deterrent.

Personally I never liked guns, but as I get older the World around me is changing, there are people that believe they can take what I have worked hard for and with an economy in the toilet the numbers of those people is growing. So, as much as I hate guns I find myself seriously considering gun ownership.

Julian

I don't think the Doctor gun argument is relevant in any regard.

We were part of the wide spread power outage. We ran the house on generator for more then 6 days. Generators were like gold here. The sign on my generator said "If you try to steel this generator you better have gotten all my guns first!"

Our society has lost it's way. We have pulled religion from our schools and not replaced it with any sort of values. We teach what you can get away with and what the punishment is if you get caught. This I believe is the core of our problems in society. You cannot legislate values!

With our government ruining our economy to re-invent itself overnight, desperation in our society will only grow by leaps and bounds.

You will never remove the illegal guns from society and the more restrictions you put on legal guns the worse off we are.

No one is getting my guns unless you pry it from...well you know!

Damn, I told myself I wasn't going to talk about anything here but cars!

quote:

We have pulled religion from our schools and not replaced it with any sort of values.... You cannot legislate values!

I am seriously biting my tongue here. Anyone want to divert this thread to THIS subject?


Larry

I am not suggesting we need religion in schools, only that it did represent some sort of values in our upbringing which does not exist today.

quote:

some sort of values in our upbringing which does not exist today.

It is commonly accepted that most character traits are established prior to a child's first entry into the school system.

Thus, the family is tasked with instilling those traits; through at-home example and, if so chosen, through exposure to that family's religious tenets.

This is how it always has been, and how it should be, IMHO.

However, there does exist a nationally expansive program of character development used by many school districts.

I certainly can't speak for the Indiana school district in which you reside, but here in Fresno, CA, the Fresno Unified School District (which is the 35th largest in the nation) my children were always exposed to this program - Character Counts.

This program is based on the Six Pillars of Character:

trustworthiness
respect
responsibility
fairness
caring
citizenship

They seem to be a pretty good foundation for developing a good set of character traits.

Over the years, I regularly saw these six points posted in my child's classrooms.

My wife is a middle school teacher. This program is active on her campus. Her school has a long established program of rewarding students' good behavior (returning a found item, helping a new student,etc.) with eligible students being placed in weekly drawings giving them snack bar freebies, movie tickets, etc.

To say public schools no longer teach values just isn't the case. They do, however, no longer teach values based on any one group's religious tenets. That too, IMHO, is also as it should be.


See - www.charactercounts.org for more information.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
Speaking of unrealiable sources....the story you just told is an urban myth

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/homeinvasion.asp

It was never represented either way.....just as fuel for the fire. As such it was very reliable.......

Here is a tongue-in-cheek video on Youtube thats kind of funny but shows how rediculous it is to make guns illegal. Criminals will always have guns. Just look at those countrys that have taken away thier citizens guns. Crimes are still being commited with guns, the only difference is that all of the victims are unarmed.

The new administrations view of gun controll would make keeping a gun in a useable state for self defence impossable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7pGt_O1uM8
Rick

Here's another one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L3kMuN8sjk