Doctors vs. Guns

I have to ask, if there were no doctors, how many deaths would there be? I mean people go to doctors for a reason.

This ratio comparison ignores incompetence and malicious intent. As a realist I have to point out a critical flaw in this comparison. The doctors "accidents" surely includes both of these while discharges from guns killing people clearly does not. Freedom to bear arms is great, but you can't deny that this freedom comes with sacrifices that are not beneficial to society.

At least when a patient dies under the care of a Doctor, the intent was not death.

When someone dies from a firearm, the exact intent of the device has been fulfilled.

Larry

"At least when a patient dies under the care of a Doctor, the intent was not death".

"When someone dies from a firearm, the exact intent of the device has been fulfilled".

Are you saying that there has never been a doctor who has intentionally killed some one??.. Are you saying firearms are only for killing people??... What is the "exact intent" of a firearm?...

"but you can't deny that this freedom comes with sacrifices that are not beneficial to society".

The above statement is possibly the most rediculous statement I ever heard, I'm sure it MUST be a mistake.... Perhaps you should think that one through a bit more, or at all...

quote:

What is the "exact intent" of a firearm?...

You can use a chair as a step stool, but that isn't exactly what it was intended for.

You can use your wife's kitchen oven to bake and cure your powder coated suspension pieces, but that isn't exactly what it was intended for.

You can use a big pile of sinus medicine to make some methamphetamine to sell to the neighborhood speed freaks, but that isn't what it was exactly intended for.

And sure, you can use a firearm for target practice, but that isn't what it was exactly intended for.

You asked "What is the 'exact intent' of a firearm?"

A firearm's exact intent is to kill.

Larry

One thing to consider is that many of those 80 million, have those guns with the intent to only kill game (Deer hunting for example), never with the intention of killing another human. So in theory would we have to ad in veterinary doctors and the accidental deaths to that figure? Also what about target shooting? I shot trap and skeet for years,with specialty shotguns made just for that sport. Those guns were not made for the intent of killing, but actually for sport. I am not trying to stir up more controversy, just giving points to consider.

First let me say... I approach this conversation with a smile. Lets see if we can flush this out... Guns do not have an intent, people do. You simply cannot say that guns are made only to kill, it's just not true. That is a personal interpritation of a simple machine. What if you went out to your shop and saw your car door open, then you walked over there and a guy a foot taller than you, 30 pounds heavier and 20 years younger, looked down at you and said " I'm takin' this Pantera wether you like it or not".. Then he started weilding YOUR tire iron... What would run through your mind??.. I know, "Go ahead, take the car"... Not me, or most other prople. Most other people intuitivly would say... " I wish I had a gun right now"... There is no anti gun argument that stands the real world giggle test... You guys, please don't count off for spelling. I went to a unionized "progressive" public school...lol..

I'm really surprised at the 'accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups is 1,500' ... Now what would be the voluntary death or should the question be: persons shot at, or wounded, or killed by a firearm.... We are no longer in the Old West yet popular culture TV, Playstation, XBox , Realife is twisting perception to desensitize the true danger of real firearms. I don't beleive the true meaning of the constitution is as represented today..

Well, we all can agree, the constitution was written taking certain things for granted which are no longer true today. However, I would say it is the absolutly the wild west out there. Infact, far worse!.. You will wish you had a magnum w/a vented barrel and a laser sight if the wild west stops by your house... Or, what if some A-hole w/nothing to lose decides he wants your car, you can give him your car if you want to. He's not getting mine. It would be cool to live in a perfect world, I'm with you there. It would also be cool to live in space on a killer planet or to live in the "rock candy mountains". But, unfortunately thats not the way it is. You must be ready to protect yourself and your family, you may only get one chance to save a loved one or an innocent person. Thats just one guys opinion....

PLT-1 Sorry I was not aware that it was that bad in Florida.
Canada is a much more peaceful place. Yes, there may be pockets were gangs can be found but overall I would say a place where 'you would not be worried to let your wife walk alone at night' - Gary Carter.
Why is the 'threat level' so high?
My neighbour is the chef marshall for Canada1 and has explained how your president (sorry your last president) was always on very high alert.. Hell you should see the US embassy here in Ottawa, they have barricades in the middle of the street. Totally unwaranted in this country.

Well, this is an interesting topic. It really had nothing to do with Panteras until you inclded the threat of that guy with the tire iron.

But actually, that guy would probably grab your gun, shoot you and your kids and then take your cat. Then the number would be 1503.

And Denis, there are more guns per capita in Canada than in the US. We just don't shoot people as often. So maybe "intent" has something to do with how and where you live.

quote:

Originally posted by David B:
Well, this is an interesting topic. It really had nothing to do with Panteras until you inclded the threat of that guy with the tire iron.

But actually, that guy would probably grab your gun, shoot you and your kids and then take your cat. Then the number would be 1503.

And Denis, there are more guns per capita in Canada than in the US. We just don't shoot people as often. So maybe "intent" has something to do with how and where you live.

Absolutely David. Car jackings are when people who are too lazy to break into your car when you are not there and steel it, walk up to you when you are stopped at a traffic light, shoot you in the head, open your door and drag your body out, then get in your still running car and drive away. It happens here in Memphis all the time. It realy isn't the guns. It is the people who we have to live with down here who do most all the killng. It was once pointed out that there was less violence in Bagdad than in Detroit. Probably even more so today.

Mark Twain said it best:

"There are three types of lies. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."

This is from "truthorfiction.com":

quote:

This email is obviously the humorous creation of a gun enthusiast.

We don't know when it was written but not all of the statistics appear accurate.

According to the U.S. Department of Health Services there were about 780,000 licensed physicians in the United States in 2008, so that figure seems good.

Finding statistics that everybody agrees with regarding deaths caused by doctors is a little more difficult. Dr. J. Mercola released a book in 2000 titled Doctors are the Third Leading Cause of Death in the US, Causing 250,000 Deaths Every Year. His breakdown, however, largely focuses on errors in hospitals and includes 12,000 deaths by unnecessary surgery, 7,000 due to medication errors in hospitals, 20,000 due to other errors in hospitals, 80,000 from infections in hospitals, and 106,000 from the negative effects of medications.

Regarding gun owners, figures from 2002-2001 from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives said there are 294 million gun owners in the U.S., a much higher figure that that quoted in the email.

According to the National Rifle Association there were 776 accidental deaths from firearms in 2000, a lower figure than in the email.

That's all interesting to know but the premise of the email is weak and, as we said, mostly aimed toward humor. Comparing doctor deaths to accidental firearm deaths is meaningless, especially because doctors are dealing with people who are sick in the first place, some of whom are at high risk for death or have gone through high risk medical procedures.

And continuing on with statistics...

Wikipedia states that gun ownership per capita in the USA is 90 per 100 residents. In Canada the number is 31.5 per 100 (same rate as Sweden). But even so we do tend to use them with much less frequency up here. It's hard to aim properly when you're freezing your nuts off.

I love these threads.

Mark

quote:

It's hard to aim properly when you're freezing your nuts off.

Thanks for injecting some humor into this.

Larry

The smell of death is in the air. I'm gonna have a bountiful harvest soon.

No, not from shooting victims or negligent doctors.

Heart attacks are plentiful amongst old dudes wearing their shorts too tight.

The Reaper

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
Thanks for injecting some humor into this.
Larry

Any time Larry! I actually though the whole thing was supposed to be a joke. I mean really, it was started by Dennis!

Gee, just some thoughts tossed out always stirrs up some serious debates here! Oh well, at least it stepped up the posting activity here! As Mark said, common guys it was me who started it!

LOL ... it is pretty funny this post.

What most funny is I;m scared of both Doctors and Guns about equally !

Ron

Mark, 294 million gun owners? As of the last census the population of the US was about 300 million. Only 6 million people don't own guns? So damn near every man, woman and child in the US owns a gun? I think that number may be off just a tad.

quote:

Originally posted by Husker:
Mark, 294 million gun owners? As of the last census the population of the US was about 300 million. Only 6 million people don't own guns? So damn near every man, woman and child in the US owns a gun? I think that number may be off just a tad.

You are making the wrong assumption. (see my previous quote by Mark Twain) The statistic doesn't state that 9 people out of 10 own guns, it says there are 90 guns per 100 people. I own 5 cars so I'm making up for four poor sods who can't afford to screw the environment themselves (without my wretched excess), and in the process I skew the stats to make it look like we all own one car — statistically speaking.

In actuality, the most recent stats on gun ownership by household for the USA and Canada (that I could find) place the percentages at: USA 39% and Canada 29%. The actual deaths by firearms (all causes incl. accidental, suicide and homicide) were: USA 14 per 100,000 people and Canada: 4 per 100,000 people (see my previous comment about freezing our nuts off).

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Charlton:
Mark Twain said it best:

"There are three types of lies. Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics."



And continuing on with statistics...

Wikipedia states that gun ownership per capita in the USA is 90 per 100 residents. In Canada the number is 31.5 per 100 (same rate as Sweden). But even so we do tend to use them with much less frequency up here. It's hard to aim properly when you're freezing your nuts off.

I love these threads.

Mark

Mr. Clemens' quote certainly applies to anything pulled from Wikipedia as a source.

quote:

Originally posted by Fahrenheit351:
Mr. Clemens' quote certainly applies to anything pulled from Wikipedia as a source.

Normally I would agree, but in this particular case, those stats do appear to come from a legitimate source.

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org...s/about/mission.html

and were reported in major international media:

http://www.reuters.com/article...dUSL2834893820070828

I love this argument and could take either side. In my wonderful world of advertising, we don’t bother with the truth, since we can always find statistics needed to support any particular point of view we want to present.

Here are a few interesting ones:

2.2% of all U.S. respondents reported that they were the victim of at least one assault or threat with a gun in the last five years. In England and Wales, that number was 2.4%. Gun ownership is a legal requirement in Switzerland. Switzerland has the second highest handgun ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world. So watch out for drive by shootings next time you’re in Zurich.

As for doctors, here’s a good one…

“What’s the difference between doctors and God?”
“God doesn’t think he’s a doctor.”

Anyhow, if you knew as many doctors as I do, then you too would rather spend time with gun owners than doctors. That is, until you get shot, at which time your criteria changes quickly.

much of the unlawful firearm violence is caused by repeat offenders who either slip through the legal system or those who get out of prison and repeat offend. a decade or so ago, baltimore started a program where when applicable gun offenses were federally prosecuted and some real real serious jail times were handed out. guess what folks, gun violence plummeted.

chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, and it has one of the highest gun violence rates in the country, makes sense huh? remember when florida first passed their concealed carry law, the critics screamed that florida strreets would be running red in blood. actually what occurred was just the opposite, crime went down and has stayed down.

a gun is just a tool, it allows a weaker defender to overcome a stronger attacker. i am a firm believer that for family/home/self defense there is no better equalizer than a competent individual armed and educated how to utilize a firearm. in a home invasion situation, there is no better tool, if you think your cell phone will save you in an emergency situation, you will probably become a victim and not a survivor.

what is never reported is how many times just the appearance of a firearm will stop the commisssion of a crime. many times (especially in jurisdictions like chicago) the intended victim will never report the stopped crime, who wants to deal with the beaurocratic (sp?) aftermath?

concealed carry for law abiding citizens, long jail terms for evildoers, and if you really want to get into placing blame for gun violence, try illegal immigrant drug dealing gangs.

nazgul

As Nazgul has stated gun is a tool but even in a home invasion situation. Two years ago an individuals home was raided by the police on Montreal's south shore. Unfortunately the cops did not check the fact that the individual had a permit for a 357 magnum (permit might have been lapsed). Anyways he shot thru his bedroom door and killed a cop. Still, he got charged and got a couple years inside. As David stated arguments for either side could be found. I just find it terrible than in 2009 we are such a violent/scared society. That energy/drive/money could be used for such better cause. A gun is for hunting game or target practice at the range. Cops should learn to use in discretion(aim to wound not kill) along with taisers. We are not in a movie looking to ratings.
As for car raids we'll end-up with side flame thrower like they have in South America?
Denis

Its not always doctors verses guns; some doctors were known for using guns.

This one's name is Holliday

"Butte, Montana - November 5, 2007



Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26, probably believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11-year-old Patricia Harrington after her father had left their two-story home.



It seems the two crooks never learned two things: they were in Montana and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine.



Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12-gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.



Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the first to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals.



When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical help could arrive.



It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45-caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. That victim, 50-year-old David Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab wounds to the chest.



Ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC, CNN, or ABC news........an 11-year-old girl, properly trained, defended her home, and herself......against two murderous, illegal immigrants ...... and she wins, she is still alive."


Just to add a little fuel to the fire........


Mark-Why not quote those two sources first instead of Wikipedia? An unreliable source, even part of the time, is still an unreliable source.

Speaking of unrealiable sources....the story you just told is an urban myth

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/homeinvasion.asp

If you want reliability... Use a revolver.

to denis c, you state in effect that cops should learn to shoot to wound, unfortunately once a firearm is displayed, the decision has already been made that deadly force is appropriate in the situation. "shoot to wound" is not practical and does not work, stress levels are way too high, a dynamic situation exists, the distances and time frames involved do not lend themselves to pinpoint body shot placement, a bullet is not magic-it does not stop an offender immediately-it just disrupts part of their biology, the rest of the offender keeps going (it ain't like "in the movies"). there are many after incident reports of evil-doers soaking up bullets and they are just like the energizer bunny, they just keep going. for an example look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout , one of the offenders was shot 6 times, the other offender 12 times before they were stopped.

a very controversial topic we are on, however i think it is safe to say that a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen is an active threat to no one, whereas even a broomstick in the hands of an aggressor is a deadly weapon.

I will say this hot topic has been very docile. I feel that with all of the hoopla that is associated with guns it is rather blown out of proporation.
It is a right to keep and bear arms, and until the constitution is changed this will keep going.. I do think that all of these new laws to limit the legal gun owner is totally bogus. The criminal could care less about the law and more laws will not solve that. Limiting a law abiding citizen will not stop the criminal.
Maybe its going to be like Germany prior to the war where guns were banned by Hitler and the new wave of politicians can brag about how safe they have made this country???
The extreme political base is still trying to limit our rights since they cant get the Constitution changed. Such as this bill which WILL make law abiding citzens criminals.
HR-45
Jeff

Like they say "guns don't kill people, people kill people"

Each side of the argument will draw on statistics that support their view. I grew up in the UK where it was (and still is) almost impossible to own a hand gun, our cops were not armed...that is until the criminals got guns and the cops found out a wooden truncheon doesn't stop a bullet. The UK vs. US stats that David B quoted tell the story, legal gun ownership in the hand of law abiding citizens is a deterrent.

Personally I never liked guns, but as I get older the World around me is changing, there are people that believe they can take what I have worked hard for and with an economy in the toilet the numbers of those people is growing. So, as much as I hate guns I find myself seriously considering gun ownership.

Julian

I don't think the Doctor gun argument is relevant in any regard.

We were part of the wide spread power outage. We ran the house on generator for more then 6 days. Generators were like gold here. The sign on my generator said "If you try to steel this generator you better have gotten all my guns first!"

Our society has lost it's way. We have pulled religion from our schools and not replaced it with any sort of values. We teach what you can get away with and what the punishment is if you get caught. This I believe is the core of our problems in society. You cannot legislate values!

With our government ruining our economy to re-invent itself overnight, desperation in our society will only grow by leaps and bounds.

You will never remove the illegal guns from society and the more restrictions you put on legal guns the worse off we are.

No one is getting my guns unless you pry it from...well you know!

Damn, I told myself I wasn't going to talk about anything here but cars!

quote:

We have pulled religion from our schools and not replaced it with any sort of values.... You cannot legislate values!

I am seriously biting my tongue here. Anyone want to divert this thread to THIS subject?


Larry

I am not suggesting we need religion in schools, only that it did represent some sort of values in our upbringing which does not exist today.

quote:

some sort of values in our upbringing which does not exist today.

It is commonly accepted that most character traits are established prior to a child's first entry into the school system.

Thus, the family is tasked with instilling those traits; through at-home example and, if so chosen, through exposure to that family's religious tenets.

This is how it always has been, and how it should be, IMHO.

However, there does exist a nationally expansive program of character development used by many school districts.

I certainly can't speak for the Indiana school district in which you reside, but here in Fresno, CA, the Fresno Unified School District (which is the 35th largest in the nation) my children were always exposed to this program - Character Counts.

This program is based on the Six Pillars of Character:

trustworthiness
respect
responsibility
fairness
caring
citizenship

They seem to be a pretty good foundation for developing a good set of character traits.

Over the years, I regularly saw these six points posted in my child's classrooms.

My wife is a middle school teacher. This program is active on her campus. Her school has a long established program of rewarding students' good behavior (returning a found item, helping a new student,etc.) with eligible students being placed in weekly drawings giving them snack bar freebies, movie tickets, etc.

To say public schools no longer teach values just isn't the case. They do, however, no longer teach values based on any one group's religious tenets. That too, IMHO, is also as it should be.


See - www.charactercounts.org for more information.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
Speaking of unrealiable sources....the story you just told is an urban myth

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/homeinvasion.asp

It was never represented either way.....just as fuel for the fire. As such it was very reliable.......

Here is a tongue-in-cheek video on Youtube thats kind of funny but shows how rediculous it is to make guns illegal. Criminals will always have guns. Just look at those countrys that have taken away thier citizens guns. Crimes are still being commited with guns, the only difference is that all of the victims are unarmed.

The new administrations view of gun controll would make keeping a gun in a useable state for self defence impossable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7pGt_O1uM8
Rick

Here's another one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L3kMuN8sjk

quote:

trustworthiness
respect
responsibility
fairness
caring
citizenship

Larry these values were copied from some sort of religious organization and you being fortunate to live in a community as I DO that has adotped these values is great .. but a healthy amount of schools in the USA dont have this sort of school system. Where i live I pay 17k per year for taxes and they are asking us to by school supplies .. also just think the opposite end of the spectrum .. is the inner city schools in NYC when Gulianni was elected mayor .. he had to garnish the parents welfare based on the childs attendance. From these schools this leads us into the guns 13 year olds are carrying to school.

It isnt the legal guns we are worried about .. its the teenagers from Towns surrounding hard working americans ...who now think going across town to do a home invasion is a friday night out. The children in our district are not the kids weare worried about.

They cant even say the Pledge of Aligience any more in school ?

Ron

Yeah, "Crime pays now a' days" I wonder how we got here???....

This pretty well sums it up for me... If you guys have three minutes to kill check it out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_QjEL0uUgo

Well one thing I learned while playing poker, only thing that beats a royal flush is a Smith & Wesson.

Thank God for ted Nugent. It's great to see someone in the entertainment industry standing up for our constitutional rights with mainstream beliefs.
Rick

quote:

Originally posted by PLT-1:
This pretty well sums it up for me... If you guys have three minutes to kill check it out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_QjEL0uUgo

quote:

Originally posted by Husker:
Mark, 294 million gun owners? As of the last census the population of the US was about 300 million. Only 6 million people don't own guns? So damn near every man, woman and child in the US owns a gun? I think that number may be off just a tad.

I don't know about the exact figures on how many guns are in America, but before the election and ever since, guns have been selling at a record pace. Ammunition is also very hard to get now and it is all being driven by the possible laws that may go into effect in the future. People that would have never thought of buying an AK-47 or AR-15 are buying or trying to buy them now. This is going to make many honest citizens future gun dealers. Many of these none enthusiast assault rifle buyers only want these weapons for resale and proffit. This reselling isn't illegal, but it does get around having to do a background check on the buyer when the seller is not a licensed dealer. I own a home based firearms business and I can tell you right now, business has never been better. My only problem is getting the weapons that my customers want, which is due to the high demand and the manufactures ability to keep up with it.

On a more positive note, I am begining to get the Pantera ready for the Reno event in June. With the stop over and route that we will be taking, it should be about 1200 miles one way from our home in southeastern Arizona. This will also be taking us through some very hot parts of Arizona and Nevada. I am hoping that other owners will be taking their Panteras to this event. Since members seemed to want a change from the Las Vegas location, I am hoping to see more Panteras in Reno this year.

So Mr Home Based Gun Dealer, do you have any idea where all the hardware you sell will wind up?

I mean I know where you think/hope it will wind up, but are you sure?

So this leads me to my first statement ...LOL

What most funny is I;m scared of both Doctors and Guns about equally ....

why because its not the legal guns and honest people you have to worry about ...the criminals are going to rob you at gun point and steel your guns ... they have nothing to lose ...you have your Pantera to lose ..who ya going to leave it to ??? LOL

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by larryw:
I mean I know where you think/hope it will wind up, but are you sure?

I generally know the people that I sell to and I have a clearance from the BATF on their background check before the sale can go through. This is the exact same background check that a normal gun store does when a firearm is sold. There is no guarantee that the weapon will not be stolen or if they sell it to an individual that turns out to be a criminal. If private individuals were required to have a background check done on anyone that they sell a gun to, that might help control who is getting these weapons. The laws for that are not in place at this time and that is a very big loop hole right now.

Based on your comment, I take it you are anti gun and I respect that. If all guns were taken away from everyone, there would be a reduction in gun accidents and gun crime, but it will only take the true criminals a short time before they will be armed again. If we made alcohol illegal, just think of all the alcohol related auto accidents that we could eliminate and all the lives that will be saved. It is not a perfect world and it never will be.

..... when your staring down the barrel of a 38 cal .. of some dirtbag on 126 str in Harlem NY and all you have is a pipe wrench and your helpers teeth a chattering and the first thing that flashes thru your mind is this guy who holds the gun has nothing to loose ... the second thing is HOW DO I GET OUT OF THIS SITUATION ..and the third is how the hell did he get a gun ?

You start to wonder ?

Everyone wants what they can't have.

Look at history-make it illegal and all you do is fuel underground enterprise. Alcohol, cigars, drugs, prostitution, gambling, even exotic European cars. Making it illegal only makes it more interesting to criminals who will make money off the inflated black market prices.

Its hard to quantify how much it would be restricted but it most definately will not dry up. Criminals will always have guns. You can't argue that. The only arguement I see is whether law abiding citizens should have them. I have yet to hear a lucid arguement against.

It's like passing a tax law... Or contribution laws... or Ethics law... LOL... Only honest people abide...


$34,000: the
amount of federal taxes Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner
(D) failed to pay during his employment at the
International Monetary Fund despite
receiving extra compensation and explanatory brochures that
described his tax
liabilities.

$75,000: the
amount of money the head of the powerful tax-writing committee,
Rep. Charlie Rangel (D-NY), was forced to report on his taxes
after the discovery he had
not reported income from a Costa Rican rental
property. His excuses for the failure
started with blaming his wife, then his accountant and finally the
fact that he didn't speak Spanish.

$93,000: the
amount of petty cash each
Congressional representative voted to give
themselves in January 2009 during the
height of an economic meltdown.

$133,900: the
amount Fannie Mae "invested" in Chris
Dodd (D-CT), head of the powerful Senate
Banking Committee, presumably to repel oversight of the GSE prior
to its meltdown. Said meltdown helped touch off the current
economic crisis. In only a few years time, Fannie also "invested"
over $105,000 in then-Senator Barack
Obama.

$140,000: the
amount of back taxes and interest Cabinet nominee Tom Daschle (D) was forced
to cough up after the vetting process revealed significant,
unexplained tax
liabilities.

$356,000: the
approximate amount of income and deductions Daschle (D) was forced to report on his amended 2005
and 2007 tax returns after being caught cheating on his
taxes. This includes $255,256 for the use of
a car service, $83,333 in unreported income, and $14,963 in
charitable contributions for which he has no
receipts.

Today,
after his nomination was withdrawn, every Democrat on the
Committee stated they would have voted for him if it had come to a
vote..

$800,000: the
amount of "sweetheart" mortgages Senate Banking Chairman Chris Dodd
(D-CT) received from Countrywide Financial,
the details for which he has refused to release details despite
months of promises to do so. Countrywide was once the nation's
largest mortgage lender and linked to Government-Sponsored Entities
like Fannie Mae and Freddie
Mac. Their meltdown precipitated the current
financial crisis. Just days ago in Pennsylvania, Countrywide was
forced to pay $150,000,000 in mortgage assistance following "a state
investigation that concluded that Countrywide relaxed its
underwriting standards to sell risky loans to consumers who did not
understand them and could not afford
them."

$1,000,000: the
estimated amount of donations by Denise Rich, wife of fugitive
Marc Rich, to Democrat interests and the William J. Clinton
Foundation (his library) in an
apparent quid pro quo
deal that resulted in a pardon for Mr. Rich. The pardon was reviewed
and blessed by now Obama Attorney General and then Deputy AG Eric
Holder, despite numerous requests by government officials to turn it
down.

$12,000,000: the
amount of TARP money provided to
community bank OneUnited despite the fact it
did not qualify for funds, and was "under attack from its
regulators for allegations of poor lending practices and
executive-pay abuses." It turns out Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA), a key contributor to the Fannie Mae
meltdown, just happens to be married to one of
the bank's ex-directors.

$23,500,000: The
upper range of net worth Rep. Allan Mollohan (D-WV) accumulated in
four years time according to The Washington
Post through earmarks of "tens of
millions of dollars to groups associated with his own business
partners."

$2,000,000,000: ($2
billion) the approximate amount of money House Appropriations
Chairman David Obey (D-WI) is earmarking related to his son's lobbying
efforts. Craig Obey is "a top lobbyist for the
nonprofit group" that would receive a roughly $2 billion component
of the "Stimulus" package.

$3,700,000,000: ($3.7
billion) not to be outdone, this is the estimated value of various defense contracts awarded to a
company controlled by the husband of Rep. Diane Feinstein
(D-CA). Despite an obvious
conflict-of-interest as "a
member of20the Military Construction Appropriations subcommittee,
Sen. Feinstein voted for appropriations worth billions to her
husband's firms
."

$4,190,000,000: ($4.19
billion) the amount of money in the so-called "Stimulus" package
devoted to fraudulent voter registration ACORN
group under the auspices of "Community
Stabilization Activities". ACORN is currently the subject of a RICO suit in
Ohio.

$1,646,000,000,000 ($1.646
trillion): the approximate amount of annual United States
exports endangered by the "Stimulus" package,
which provides a "Buy American" stricture. According to
international trade experts, a "US-EU trade war looms",
which could result in a worldwide economic depression reminiscent of
that touched off by the protectionist Smoot-Hawley
Act.

Michelle
Obama was hired at a Chicago Hospital right after her husband
was elected to the Illinois Senate for a bit above $100,000.
When Obama 20 was elected to the US Senate, her salary was tripled to
more than $300,000 after Senator Obama earmarked many millions of
dollars for the hospital in his short time in the Senate. During the
campaign for President by Obama, Michelle Obama continued to draw her
salary even though not there. When inauguration day came -- and went,
the hospital eliminated her job. The importance of a $300,000 job
can be overstated -- and eliminated.

It's not just a culture of
corruption. It's a culture of corruption and stupidity. And appear to be
above the law. All of the aforementioned clowns (except
Daschle) are still in office, ruling like the royalty they've
become.

I'm not anti gun at all. Got a bunch of 'em.

I've handled guns since I was a child. My parents were both involved in WW2, my father as a soldier and my mother as a civilian caught in the crossfire of occupied Holland.

Toy guns were forbidden in my house for exactly that reason. I was taught how to use them and respect them. I'm looking forward to teaching my daughter the same.

I can also tell you EXACTLY where every gun or piece of ammunition I have had responsibility for is.

A friend of mine took a really good approach that worked out very well... He tought his young son to shoot, then he tought him to clean and properly care for his firearm. Then, he MADE the kid go shoot, made him clean the gun when he really wanted to play video games. Trust me, you can leave a firearm laying around this kid..lol.. He has no desire to "play" w/a firearm. The kid is trained, the firearm is not mystery and it has no magical appeal... worked perfect.

Live out in the country away from town a few miles. When we moved here we talked about an alarm system and determined we did not need one. I am not so concerned about a tool being stolen as I am our safety.

I hear more and more stories about crazy meth addicts every day. A little over a year ago 2 guys cranked up on meth broke into a nice house just a little down the road....While everyone was asleep. 2 adults, 4 kids. It set their alarm off and they chased them off with a hand gun.

By the end of the week we had an alarm system too. I really hate cleaning blood out of tile grout! Some times you just have to get the tile grout re-done and it never matches!

Hey comp2, I'm tempted to break into your shop even if I have to have a shoot out w/you..lol.. BTW, will you build me a plane??..lol... You do nice work!...

quote:

It's not just a culture of
corruption. It's a culture of corruption and stupidity. And appear to be
above the law.

All your examples seem to be about money.

And some of them certainly do have a stench about them.

However, you left out the one recent episode that has value far above any you sighted:

The stupidity, corruption, lies and disdain for the law that has now resulted in the deaths of 4,865 American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Larry

If you think this is an unfair comparison, like apples to oranges, then just look up the current (and the estimated future) monetary cost of those two war fronts.

PLT-1

Well here is 2 I built. The both only have 100cc engines so if you want a ride you will need a rope and some ski's. For a perspective on size look at the burn out on the runway behind the plane in photo number 2:

http://www.rc-tech.net/per2/Studacherc.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/per/gear/firstb.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/per/bearcat/flying/f2b.jpg

gary

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
[QUOTE].

However, you left out the one recent episode that has value far above any you sighted:

The stupidity, corruption, lies and disdain for the law that has now resulted in the deaths of 4,865 American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Larry

Why didn't you mention the desire for the total annihilation of all infidels by Islamic extremists as the cause of the loss of 4,685 lives in Iraq and Afghanistan???????

quote:

Why didn't you mention the desire for the total annihilation of all infidels by Islamic extremists as the cause of the loss of 4,685 lives in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Because we expect irrational, hateful, built-on-lies and mis-information beliefs, and the results that come hand-in-hand with that type of thinking, from Islamic extremists.

We do not, or at least should not, expect that from our President.

Larry

So you think the fight against terrorism is irrational? Or doesn't it exist? Perhaps you should teach peace to those who would throw acid on the faces of girls for the mere action of attending school. Feel free to protest at the Iranian embassy, or the Afghan embassy.

You think those issues are only about money??.. WOW! Is that how the whole "Respect, citizenship, trust" thing works at the school you mentioned??... "It's about the money now", "It was only about sex" before. So it sounds like you have cheating a loved one and stealing money covered..lol.. Pretty funny.

You seem to try to assign a lot of impact to your issues about the last admin. ?? Can you be more specific? Can you provide a list of the lies, broken laws, etc you refer to?.. (Like I did)?.. This way we can make note of your position and we can all help each other watch over our officials. In order for a persons "personal logic" to have integrity, it must be carried through all things, lest it become a rank idealistic, superficial position subject to change by fleeting external influences of the same description.

quote:

You think those issues are only about money??

Of course not.

But it surely was THE lead point in every item YOU listed.

Larry

quote:

In order for a persons "personal logic" to have integrity, it must be carried through all things, lest it become a rank idealistic, superficial position subject to change by fleeting external influences of the same description. Smiler

I completely agree,

Do you?

Larry

In all fairness, I have no idea about those numbers..lol.. It's just some email I received. So, credit or scourn, it's not my work.

Yes I do agree, but your not breaking intelect rule #1 by answering a question w/a question are you??..

I see only Democrats mentioned above - Daschle, Dodd, Rangel, Clinton, Waters, Mollohan, Obey and Feinstein.

Now, I'm just a dumb Canadian, but I find it hard to believe that there are no corrupt Republicans.

This thread started out as an interesting argument with merit on both sides and an opportunity for enlightenment about how others have dealt with this.

But it seem like it has collapsed into just another political argument.

quote:

Originally posted by David B:
... I'm just a dumb Canadian ...

I strongly disagree with that statement.

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
I strongly disagree with that statement.

No, REALLY, he IS a Canadian...

Mark,
Sharp, very sharp!!

quote:

Originally posted by David B:
I see only Democrats mentioned above - Daschle, Dodd, Rangel, Clinton, Waters, Mollohan, Obey and Feinstein.

Now, I'm just a dumb Canadian, but I find it hard to believe that there are no corrupt Republicans.

This thread started out as an interesting argument with merit on both sides and an opportunity for enlightenment about how others have dealt with this.

But it seem like it has collapsed into just another political argument.

Oh, there are corrupt Republicans, but when Nazi Pelosi, on her first day as Speaker, stated that this would be the most honest, moral House she absolutely stepped in deep crap. If the main stream media would actually do some reporting escapades such as those mentioned would be headlines day in and day out. Unfortunately they would rather report on Obama's basketball abilities and his wife's fashion sense.

Well, I hope it's not an argument in a bad way... But..lol.. It's collapsing...