EFI Install - Cam sync & oil pump drive

I haven't done it on a cleveland, but have done it on other cars.
I used a std elec dizzy, removed the centrifical, epoxied it up, then removed the other parts of thetrigger wheel, leaving only one point, then cut the top of the shaft off, turned the top of the body down and made a plastic cap to go over it, ( the lid of a spray can can work !!) once it is in and set, it never needs adjusting !are there no efi 460's over there with crank triggers you can use their dizzy body ?
we have a 302W with coil packs, but is the wrong size for you
good luck.

Seems to be plenty of dual sync distributors available, but with the crank trigger/coil packs I just need a cam signal.

I have an old Ford dual spark dizzie, maybe I'll upgrade that to electronic pick up and convert to cam sync duty.

Julian,

I believe the MSD 8521 is still available by special order. You can also buy the appropriate Accel Dual Sync distributor, throw away the cap and rotor, then cap it off using an Autotrend EFI cap (http://www.autotrendefi.com/distributor_cap.html). If the crank wires and connector bug you, simply remove them.

Hi David,

Good to see you on the forum.

Thanks for the info, I'll give MSD a call to find out availability on the 8521.

Hum. I suppose the reason that you are going with this FI setup is that you got a deal on it and not that you want it to look period correct for the car?
Period correct look would be with a distributor.

I personally am going with the distributor. I'm using the Duraspark with a small cap so it fits.

The GM style cap with the built in coil is a nice idea but only a small cap will fit.

It is also a proven setup as far as durability and one is not reinventing the wheel with it.

Of course if you plan on turning this thing like it is a Formula 1 car at 11 or 12,000 rpm, then distributorless is the way to go. It will make one less component that you need to put back in the car when you blow this one up.

I used a duraspark unit as well. I removed the trigger spur and cut off all but one tooth. I use an electromotive tec3 wired to the duraspark sensor. Works like a charm.

Blaine

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Hum. I suppose the reason that you are going with this FI setup is that you got a deal on it and not that you want it to look period correct for the car?

Well period correct would be a bone stocker and I'm way beyond that. What I do want is something that will support the 620HP reliably, 48IDA Webers are unlikely to do that when it spins to 7500 rpm and currently runs a Holley 1,000cfm 4 barrel, but the 61mm Kinsler FI will. Yes the coil packs and ignition side came with it as the mechanical Kinsler would run the fuel pump off the camshaft, so why not use them as they are better than a distributor system and the car will be outfitted and set up for a track environment.

Julian,

I bought 6 of the MSD cam syncs about two years ago from Summit because they had a price of $90 on them. I thought it was a mistake. Turns out, they were closing them out. I can't figure out why they would discontinue this line. At that time 351c version was unavailable but it was just their W part (MSD 8506) with a C gear. You would think that the 429/460 market for same would make for more than viable market.

All of my "extras" are gone now or I'd help you out with one. When I bought all the W plugs, the C had been discontinued. When I called MSD direct, they would have made one for me so it might be worth calling MSD directly. I spoke with David Nunn recently who had ran into the same dilema, and per his post above, looks like MSD will accomodate.

Also, I believe either msd or electromotive sell a kit that puts a hall effect or some kind of mag sensor on the cam sprocket and then a pick up on the timing cover, but you would still need a plug. Morroso makes some distributor plugs but not sure if so for sbf.

I think I read somewhere that there was a Ford OE distributor that had a sync? 429/460 truck EFI maybe?

Here's the MSD W plug next to a C distributor.

Best Regards,
Kelly

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Originally posted by Joules5:

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Hum. I suppose the reason that you are going with this FI setup is that you got a deal on it and not that you want it to look period correct for the car?

Well period correct would be a bone stocker and I'm way beyond that.

Well I guess I meant something that would look like it ran Lemans in 1973?

Webers would qualify but I suppose that a mechanical FI system would as well.

How is access going to be with that type of system in a Pantera?

If I can manage to reproduce the look I have in my head then yes it should look like it could have run in LeMans in '73 with some modern under the skin upgrades.

It will remain green with GP4 flares, black hood, decklid and lower accent on body. The 393C with 180 headers (and eventually Kinsler FI system with stacks). Sierra brakes and adjustable suspension. Interior will be a bit of a modern deviation with Racetech seats, 4 point roll cage, white faced gauges on a CF dash insert.

The only aspect up for question is whether to mount a front air dam. I like the non air dam look of original GP4 cars, but might want some aero stability.

Well that's the 'vision' but the reality is a long way from that at present.

Julian,

What kind of heads do you have on your 393C? Track car? Did you pick up your Kinsler and EM ignition from Gary Roys?

Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Yes the Kinsler set up came from Gary when he advertised it for sale here, maybe a year or more ago now.

The heads are the FMS A3, the motor was built by Klein Engines in Chandler AZ.

Julian

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Yes the Kinsler set up came from Gary when he advertised it for sale here, maybe a year or more ago now.

I bought the Fontana/C302B long block from him. Your set up was on that engine. He made a fuel pump for the mechanical Kinsler system that was driven off the distributor cam gear.

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The heads are the FMS A3, the motor was built by Klein Engines in Chandler AZ.

I like A3s for higher rpm stroker engines and have several sets myself. These might support a 600 HP engine and support a pretty broad power range. They are 2.25" throat and have flow potential similar to 58 IDAs. Elegantly simple carbs. The Mag Doug Nash intake is 4V but it would be easy to fill to or fab an A3 intake.

Kelly

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I bought the Fontana/C302B long block from him. Your set up was on that engine. He made a fuel pump for the mechanical Kinsler system that was driven off the distributor cam gear.

I do recall you saying that the Kinsler setup was on an engine you had purchased. Did you get any interest in/sell the Fontana block & C302B's?

I have a set of the C302B's here on the shelf, maybe I'll go wild and drop them on the GT40 one of these days.

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These might support a 600 HP engine and support a pretty broad power range. They are 2.25" throat and have flow potential similar to 58 IDAs. Elegantly simple carbs. The Mag Doug Nash intake is 4V but it would be easy to fill to or fab an A3 intake.

I know very little about the in-lines for reliability, tuning etc.? Do I take it these are for sale? Are you still casting your own IDA manifolds and putting together EFI systems?

On another note did you ever manage to find a pair of ZF side mounts?

Julian

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I do recall you saying that the Kinsler setup was on an engine you had purchased. Did you get any interest in/sell the Fontana block & C302B's?

Interest yes, but nobody has come up with the scratch yet. I expect it to take a while to move them unless I want to give them away, and that is not the case.

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I have a set of the C302B's here on the shelf, maybe I'll go wild and drop them on the GT40 one of these days.

They're great heads.

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I know very little about the in-lines for reliability, tuning etc.?

They were never homologated for any racing that required it, were discontinued before they became fully developed, and had no real impact on the racing programs. Having said this, they are very novel and reliable because they are elegantly simple. Not as tunable as Weber IDAs but that is both the good and bad news. Tuning is basically limited to just accel pump shot, mains, and idle jets. These are all accessible from the top of the carb. You can fuss with emulsion tubes and other aspects but it really doesn't gain you much. IMO, IR is the only practical use for the larger inlines and they can be quite good performers in this configuration. The prostock drag racers had a tendancy to suck the fuel bowls dry. For road racers there were some issues with slosh under hard braking and acceleration that was easily addressed with simple bowl baffles where needed.

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Do I take it these are for sale?

Yes, but they are very sought after by collectors and thus very pricey. Happy to talk to you off line if interested.

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Are you still casting your own IDA manifolds and putting together EFI systems?

Still casting? -No. Just too busy with work. I could potentially put together a system from existing parts or potentially split the one advertsied with the Fontana and C302Bs if you were interested.

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On another note did you ever manage to find a pair of ZF side mounts?

No but I have not called any of the vendors except Quella yet. -No go with Dennis Q.