Five modifications NOT to do to your Pantera

Examples of a., actions that compensate for a problem instead of correcting the root cause:

Cooling system:

I’ve seen many cooling modifications through the years, by very creative people. The list includes, chopping holes in the hood, bigger OD pipes, electric water pump, different diameter water pump pulley to either slow down or speed up water flow, no thermostat etc. etc. And Panteras have always been known to heat up easily. Here’s what I know from my own experience. My first Pantera with a stock engine had a hard time keeping cool. On long trips the needle would go almost all the way to the right, and while it never really overheated, I didn’t like it. So I fixed (corrected) the following:
New hoses and pipes (std diameter)
Double clamps on every hose
Proper Cleveland 180-degree thermostat
New radiator cap
Only one fan was working, got both to work
Moved fans (stock original) closer to radiator to shroud air stream
New coolant, made effort to avoid air pockets
When all of this was done, the cooling problem was solved and never came back. Nothing fancy invented, just good old WAD (Working As Designed).

Some might say, okay, you live in Denmark and only have 300 HP. Yes, but then I got another Pantera, this one with 600 HP. I’ve taken both Panteras to France on Charlie McCall’s trips, and you can get plenty of witnesses, that we’ve had some pretty high temperatures on some of the trips we’ve had. No overheating. It should be said that on my 600 HP Pantera, the previous owner had installed an aluminum water pump and puller fans instead of pusher fans. I don’t know how much this aids the cooling, I’d say we’re still pretty close to the original setup compared to the creative ideas others have tried. I’ve had my 600 HP Pantera do laps at Spa, running at full speed chasing a GT40, with no overheating. I’ve also done some motorcycle-chasing in Denmark, driving in 2nd and 3rd gear at high rpm for 20 miles, then entering a city with stop-and-go traffic, no overheating.

So I’d say, get the basics of your cooling system right, and forget the very creative solutions. They’re not needed and if they do work, they’re compensating for the real problem you have.

Shifter:

Some people recommend taking out the spring in the gear shifter, and after that the shifter feels more centered and direct. And they can be right; in some cases the shifter does indeed feel more centered and direct. But that’s because you’ve compensated for a problem instead of correcting it. Originally there’s the centering mechanism of the shifter, but there’s also a centering mechanism in the ZF. So originally there was about twice the centering force, but that is only true if the shifter rod is properly aligned. What often happens, I guess after years of use or after somebody has had the ZF or shifter replaced, is that the alignment is off. This means that there’s a centered area where the shifter alignment mechanism pulls to the right but the ZF alignment mechanism pulls to the left, or vice-versa. So it feels sloppy and there’s no centering force, or there is excessive resistance to movement.

If you remove the shifter centering mechanism in that situation, then of course you eliminate the sloppy feeling, and you think you’ve done something good (but you should be wondering why the factory put it in if taking it out improves shifter feel). But you end up with approximately half the shifter centering force compared to original, which is sometimes not enough to center the shifter, so you have to do it by hand.

What you should do is realign the shifter rod. Have the car in neutral, loosen the lock nut approximately at cylinder 8, let the shift lever and the ZF both center, and tighten the nut. Now you have a shifter with twice the centering power and no sloppy center, as the factory intended. Working As Designed!

Clutch, long throw slave:

We all agree that it’s critical that we get the clutch to fully disengage before shifting gears; if not we’ll soon wear out the synchros in our expensive ZFs. To make sure that we have both full disengagement and of course full engagement when the clutch pedal is not pressed down, the clutch master and slave and the clutch itself have to be right, and well-adjusted. However, some have bought long throw slaves, which of course make adjusting the clutch easier, but it comes at a price: It makes the clutch pedal harder to press down. And who wants that, who wants a harder clutch pedal, unless you’re trying to discourage your wife from driving the car?! Some then add clutch effort reduction kits(!), which more or less compensate for the long throw slave, so they are back to square one. You can’t cheat physics; the effort required and length of the arm always correlate, so you cannot invent a contraption that delivers a longer throw without increasing the pressure needed or vice-versa. If you can, you have invented a device akin to the perpetual motion machine, and will soon have enough money so you won’t be bothered fixing your Pantera yourself.

Again, did the factory build cars that were not able to properly engage/disengage the clutch? No they did not. The clutch just needs to be properly adjusted with no leaks or air pockets, and needs to be a Pantera-specific clutch rather than one designed for a Mustang or a pickup truck. Correcting the issue instead of compensating for it. Working As Designed.

So how do you adjust the clutch properly? That’s not so easy, because if you look in original Ford literature, there are several ways mentioned. When I replaced the clutch slave I tried reading these and put the advice together in one single instruction. Here it is below; if you use this, you don’t need a long-throw slave:

First, the basics have to be right: A good master, slave, pipe and line, and a proper Pantera clutch, not just a Mustang clutch. And the fluid has to be free of air.

1. Master: pedal should be adjusted so at rest it’s either at or ½” closer to the driver than the brake pedal. Then test with a friend that with the pedal fully pressed down, there should be at least 1/4” gap to the firewall/carpet.

2. Clutch pivot shaft arm: the arm from the ZF to the slave pushrod end. The clutch arm should be at a 90 degree angle to the pushrod/slave when the clutch pedal is pressed halfway down. Any other angle will result in the slave pushrod linear movement translating into less rotational movement of the clutch pivot shaft. Maybe you should move the arm a notch on the shaft? Also check that there’s free movement to ensure that when the clutch pedal is fully depressed, the arm or the retaining bolt/nut doesn’t rub on the ZF or bellhousing. If the arm isn’t adjusted properly and the retaining bolt/nut touches, it will limit clutch movement, and can even break the bellhousing. And get a properly sized clevis pin; my car’s previous owner had just used a bolt that was 0.3mm less in diameter, resulting in some slop in the system.

3. Slave adjustment bolt: Temporarily remove the spring. Use your hands or a tool to move the clutch pivot shaft arm rearwards, and feel for when the fingers of the clutch release fork touch the throwout bearing inside the bellhousing. It should be easy to feel. While holding the arm in that position, turn the adjustment bolt so that it almost touches the stop on the slave mounting bracket, leaving a 2mm gap. This will ensure that a. there’s no wear on the clutch release bearing when the pedal is not pressed down, and b. that you get as much movement of the clutch as possible. Reinstall the spring.

4. Slave pushrod: Some suggest that the pushrod is used to position the resting position of the clutch pivot shaft arm and that the return bolt should be thrown away. And some say this is not good, because the slave should not bottom out. I think the best is to use the return bolt as described in 3., and then adjust for almost maximum slave piston travel on the pushrod so that the slave piston is almost fully compressed with no bottoming out. With the system at rest, take out the clevis pin and by hand press the slave pushrod all the way up in the slave, and then release 1mm. Do the holes now align so the clevis can be put back in? If not, adjust the length of the pushrod, so that they do.

With all this done, you should have a clutch that neither slips nor grinds synchro teeth. And of course you must press the clutch pedal all the way down every time.

Examples of b., actions that actually make the car worse

Removing the brake proportioning valve:


If you have stock brakes, they’re balanced with the proportioning valve as part of the equation. And still some choose to rip it out, never stopping to think why the factory spent money and added complexity by adding a proportioning valve. I know from personal experience that a Pantera with stock brakes and the proportioning valve removed is a terrible thing. Some previous owner of my first Pantera had taken out the proportioning valve. On damp roads it would prematurely lock its front wheels and just slide, with almost no brake assistance from the rears. But when I got my second Pantera, which still had original brakes, it was a different world. It stopped well and never locked any wheels, and it still had the proportioning valve installed.

Why do some people with stock brakes take the proportioning valve off? A little theory on brake balancing: The perfect balance is obtained when all four tires brake so hard that the front wheels lock up just prior to the rears. The purpose of the brake effort of the rear wheels is not only to stop the car, but also to make the car tilt forward, so there’s more weight transfer to the front tires, enabling them to brake harder without locking. Both these effects are diminished if the proportioning valve is removed, and the Pantera will then tend to lock its front wheels prematurely and have a longer stopping distance.

So why do people insist that removing the brake proportioning valve is a good thing? Because they don’t measure stopping distance, because locking up wheels tends to be seen as something that only can be achieved by very good brakes, and last but perhaps not least, the pedal feels harder (since the flexing effect of the proportioning valve is gone) and more sensitive in gentle, low-speed driving with light braking, which is all that most people do. It feels like it’s a lot better, but it’s not. Keep the proportioning valve. Working As Designed.

That said, if you go with aftermarket brakes, most require you get rid of the proportioning valve, because the brake balance of aftermarket brakes is designed without a proportioning valve. I now have a Wilwood setup from Dennis Quella, which works perfectly, and the balance is perfect. With all four calipers working together as a balanced system, it generates 0.96G stopping power according to my Racelogic.

Moving the A/C condenser up front:

Uuhh, this is the big one. The one that can really get people’s blood flowing, probably 50% say yes, 50% say no. Let’s examine the issue.

First, I can’t know, but I’m pretty sure it would have been cheaper for De Tomaso to put the condenser in the front of the radiator like on most cars. This would result in a system with shorter hoses, no hole/grill to cut in the back, no extra electrical fan. So maybe, just maybe, they had a good reason to place the condenser in the back? Well, I can think of several good reasons…

I think we have to examine two types of driving and also include the engine cooling in the equation.
1. If going slow or standing still in stop-and-go traffic, which would you rather have? A rear-mounted no-restrictions system is for sure better than a front-mounted system where it would be sitting next to a hot radiator and airflow would be restricted by having to pass through both of them. I know that the hot engine and the exhaust are in the back, but the condenser in the back has a free-flowing source of outside air and a fan sucking it in through the condenser. If moved to the front it will be permanently glued to the radiator which is almost as hot as the engine, plus the restriction of the radiator will slow down the airflow through both the condenser and the radiator. Conclusion: If going slow, the A/C will almost certainly be cooler with the condenser in the back.
2. If cruising or going fast, the extra airflow from the car moving might give better A/C cooling with a front-mounted A/C. But the effect might not be as significant as you think. Where does your Pantera or your daily driver often become most dirty? The rear end. Why? Because the airflow runs up the rear unless you have a diffuser. So even at speed, there should be enough air for the condenser in the rear. I’ve never seen figures to document that, but my own rear-mounted A/C condenser deals with high-speed German/French highways and stop-and-go traffic in summer, without me having to turn the knob to full Cool. I repeat, I don’t have the knob at full Cool, because then it gets too cold in the cabin, it’s just Working As Designed. Conclusion: There may be speeds where a front-mounted condenser can deliver superior cooling, but at or below 70-80 mph the rear-mounted condenser on a properly functioning A/C system will deliver more cooling than the small cabin needs. I do say “properly functioning”, so we’re not trying to compensate for something that should be corrected…
3. Even if the A/C got better from moving the condenser up front (and thereby second-guessing the factory that took the expensive solution of putting it in the back), can anybody with any kind of confidence argue against the fact that putting a hot A/C condenser in front of the radiator will adversely impact the cooling system’s ability to cool the engine? The fact is that the radiator will see less airflow and the air will be preheated by the condenser. What could be worse for the engine?

So we have three arguments for keeping the condenser in the back. And the only argument for moving it up front is the intuitive thought of getting it up front in the airstream. If it was that easy, I think the factory would have done it this way. I know that many have moved the condenser up front and had better A/C cooling. But was it perhaps also due to a new condenser, new hoses, new filter, maybe even new compressor fitted at the same time, with a full charge of refrigerant? Replacing old parts with new parts might better explain any improvement rather than the placement of the condenser…

So there you have it, five things that I think we really should NOT do to our Panteras. We should spend the money and time on something better. Make it faster. Take a trip. Put your child through college. Whatever. I’ve defended the factory’s ideas, and since they’re engineers doing this for a living and most of us are optimistic crafty amateurs, why not…? Working As Designed is a powerful concept…

Sorry Mikael but these global statements do not work for me. Each of your points could easily be picked apart in long dissertations.

The Pantera has never been a platform that is sacred from a numbers matching stand point and good Panteras typically have a number of aftermarket fixes to make them better cars. Why? A lot of it has to do with going from drawing board to production in 11 months. Some of the finest Panteras were no doubt heavily modified Panteras. It what it is, it's who we are.

A lot of it comes from the fact that people take more enjoyment from creating something then "Buying" something. You see it often in the Hot Rod market, "Built -- Not Bought!"

The creativity and ingenuity is one reason people gravitate toward Panteras because they benefit from it.

If I want an overly designed car I can give no real meaningful input to I would "BUY" a new Corvette. When I am 90 years old I might.

On another note, I have never been a believer in let the experts do what they do, I am just a dumb follower. Dr's are experts and when they give dumb advice I reject it. Some of the most fantastic builds of all cars have come from home grown builders. Sometimes designers have a lot of other things in mind other then ME when building a car and time is never on their side.

Much of the advancement of Aviation is continually advanced by experimental airplanes and the individual; not corporate designers. Aviation is so limited by legal and regulatory issues. I was flying planes with Magnetos even recently when kit plates for many many years have had advanced self made ignition systems and so on and so forth.

Individuals led much of the advancement in aviation and it often happens in cars.

If the hobby is about buying a car and not touching it I will buy a Corvette; or perhaps I will just go back to bed.

If the car is about starting with a platform to work from to think, to expand on, problem solve, be creative, etc.... A Pantera is a great platform. Doesn't mean there are is no room for stock examples.

Sorry, but I reject pretty much most of what you said.

Regards,

Gary

Hello Mikael; Firstly I want to thank you for the time & effort you took to place your thoughts & comments into print, NOT an easy task.

I completely understand the concept of certain "mods" actually being a detriment instead of an improvement, thus the adage "Trial & Error".

In building cars prior to CG ( computer generation) & CAD ( computer added design) & software programs that formulated outcomes before 1 bolt was ever turned, certainly eliminated a profound percentage of "Seat of the Pants" experimentation.

Look at today, there are software programs that will tell you with extreme accuracy the horsepower an engine will make by merely inputting various engine components & camshaft profiles.

I agree with Gary's statement about the short period of time between the DeTomaso Pantera "Idea" & production being a reason/s for many of the Pantera's flaws.

I would make the claim that NO car EVER developed & sold was "Perfect" from the factory, that claim applies to future cars as well.

Just like there is "No Perfect Steak" ( unless I'm cooking), there will NEVER be a "Perfect Car", if there ever was, We as collective car enthusiasts & "modders" might as well take our sockets & wrenches & duct tape & take up knitting quilts!!!...Mark

I really like Mikael but I have to completely agree with Gary and Mark.

We should all accept that there are folks that like bone stock and there are folks that find bone stock kind of boring.

There is nothing against folks that want their cars stock until they start preaching to me about it.

My mother taught me to not talk publicly about politics or religion. I think the debate over stock or modified should be added to the list!

Mikael, I want to thank you for the information. as a newbie, but really old owner , i found the information useful and have placed several items into my "to do list". If any negetive criticism I would think it was just the wording of the title.

on that note, I was expecting the thread to be about some outragous mods like the one photo I saw some where with exhaust side pipes. (I hope I did not insult the owner of that car)

Gary, Mark and ZR1, have you actually read it? I'm in no way against modifications.
". We can improve our Panteras by adding stuff that the factory was too cheap to include (they wanted to keep the price down so we could afford to buy their product), or by adding modern advances in technology that were not available when the Pantera was conceived and built. It’s probably the most-modified supercar, and of course a well-modified supercar becomes a super supercar! But SOME modifications that have been done on Panteras by numerous owners over the years are perhaps not as beneficial as you’d think."
The word "SOME" is key, there are plenty of modifications that can and should be done, but IMO the 5 I mention are at best a waste of time and money.

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by No Quarter:
Gary, Mark and ZR1, have you actually read it? I'm in no way against modifications.
". We can improve our Panteras by adding stuff that the factory was too cheap to include (they wanted to keep the price down so we could afford to buy their product), or by adding modern advances in technology that were not available when the Pantera was conceived and built. It’s probably the most-modified supercar, and of course a well-modified supercar becomes a super supercar! But SOME modifications that have been done on Panteras by numerous owners over the years are perhaps not as beneficial as you’d think."
The word "SOME" is key, there are plenty of modifications that can and should be done, but IMO the 5 I mention are at best a waste of time and money.

I read it to a point where I was going to ask if you meant Ford GT instead of GT40 as the car you were chasing...Mark

"I’ve had my 600 HP Pantera do laps at Spa, running at full speed chasing a GT40, with no overheating"

As you possibly could have been "chasing" a 7 MILLION dollar GT40!!!

https://www.mecum.com/news-item.cfm?news_id=2369

quote:

Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:
I really like Mikael but I have to completely agree with Gary and Mark.

We should all accept that there are folks that like bone stock and there are folks that find bone stock kind of boring.

There is nothing against folks that want their cars stock until they start preaching to me about it.

My mother taught me to not talk publicly about politics or religion. I think the debate over stock or modified should be added to the list!

Which reminds me of a joke...A jewish democrat walks into a bar carrying a pig ...Mark

I actually read it TWICE.

I appreciate that you put the effort to write an article but unfortunately, I disagree with a lot of the content.

No problem, we can't all agree and I have the utmost respect for you and your contributions to the forum!

Thanks ZR1, and disagreements on the specific 5 points were to be expected.

Rocketship, it looked like a GT40 but was in all likelihood a clone since it was thrashed around Spa. I've posted about that day earlier:Spa Trip

Mikael,
I too appreciate the write-up. However, you make the comment "where we as a group think that we’re cleverer than the factory engineers." The factory engineers are far from infallible (see the numerous TSBs issued). So, yes, in some cases we are more clever than the factory engineers. Actually its not being more clever, its we, as a group, have far, far more time dealing with the foibles of these cars.

Good point Husker. My points are based on when the factory made a conscious and expensive change, we should think twice before changing it back.

There is a lot of technology today that was not available then as well. This technology takes craftsmen to apply it.

For instance, there is has been a lot of people taking about electric water pumps. This most certainly was not a viable option in 1971. It is however, an option now. A few have worked through the issues and it works well for them. There is however a lot more talk on the subject then action in general. Just because it is not accepted to the point to where it is not being sold by the major Pantera vendors does not mean that it is not a viable option. I think for now it is still in the experimental phase just like disk brake conversions were for many muscle cars in the past.

I remember a time when everyone said disc brake conversions was a dumb think to do and there was nothing wrong with drum brakes. The MGB guys still rant and rave over how good drum brakes are...then every 100 topics is how they are locking up, not working, not adjusting, etc.

It may or may never be a great option. People will test it and play with it to the point where the information is out there and it could be a standard upgrade. I have said before, I love the idea of electric water pumps from the stand point of filling and purging a Pantera system.

I just think it is new and has not been tested in a way people know what is good or bad. Doesn't mean it's bad...in fact it makes me want to explore it. And there is the fun.

Hi Mikael,
Having owned a Pantera in the 70's totally unmodified and owning a highly modified one now I am glad of the upgrades that are available to me now, our cars were built and designed to 1970's specifications, and Italian ones at that.
I can't think of a single car on the market today if it was still in production would be designed and built the same way it would in the seventies mainly I would guess because of profit and then ease of production, quality of product, reliability etc, etc,
You do make some excellent points and valid ones at that I am grateful to you for bringing this subject up because it just reinforces one of the reasons I own a Pantera, it is one of the very, very few supercars than you CAN upgrade without devaluing, can you imagine changing a ferrari or Lambo.
Again i thank you for your in depth article it's made very interesting reading and discussion.

Thanks for the kind words from some of you, especially the pm's.

Less inspiring are the comments from people that clearly have not read it, where I'm accused of being against improving anything. I'm all for improving, my Pantera is testament to that, but it has to be the RIGHT improvements. Example, when my first Pantera didn't cool the engine properly, did I cut holes in the front lid, put on bigger diameter pipes, install electric water pump, speed up/slow down water pump? No, I made sure the system already designed was Working As Designed. And that did the trick. Correcting instead of Compensating. Spending your time and money wisely.

So, to reiterate, modifications/improvements in general are good. A handful of the popular modifications/improvements discussed on this forum are at best a waste of time and money. Just my opinion.

I won't comment on this stream any further, unless somebody has comments on where I'm wrong on the 5 specific not-to modifications I mention. Then it gets interesting IMO

And next time I contemplate spending an evening putting such a text together for the benefit of my DeTomaso friends, I might just go out in garage and wash the cars instead...

Mikael -

Don't feel that way! IMHO Anyone with talent, ideas and an interest in our cars makes a big difference by contributing to both the POCA technical newsletter, here and in other Pantera resources.

You may get a lot of varying opinions on an internet forum, but there are even more, less vocal, or less internet savvy people who read your article / post (either in print or on the web) and don't comment, but who are now thinking about your recommendations......

Rocky

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Thanks for the kind words from some of you, especially the pm's.

Less inspiring are the comments from people that clearly have not read it, where I'm accused of being against improving anything. I'm all for improving, my Pantera is testament to that, but it has to be the RIGHT improvements. Example, when my first Pantera didn't cool the engine properly, did I cut holes in the front lid, put on bigger diameter pipes, install electric water pump, speed up/slow down water pump? No, I made sure the system already designed was Working As Designed. And that did the trick. Correcting instead of Compensating. Spending your time and money wisely.

So, to reiterate, modifications/improvements in general are good. A handful of the popular modifications/improvements discussed on this forum are at best a waste of time and money. Just my opinion.

I won't comment on this stream any further, unless somebody has comments on where I'm wrong on the 5 specific not-to modifications I mention. Then it gets interesting IMO

And next time I contemplate spending an evening putting such a text together for the benefit of my DeTomaso friends, I might just go out in garage and wash the cars instead...

Hello Mikael; Unless you are discussing a subject as absolute as mathematics, where 2+2=4 is irrefutable, then posting your ideas/comments about mods for a Pantera or for that matter ANY car is naturally going to provide the opportunity for others to have alternate, opposing viewpoint/s.

That is just a fact of life.

I must have thicker skin than you as I personally did NOT read any comments that could be construed as insulting or inflammatory.

I personally would NOT want to be part of a website where discussion & counter ideas were not encouraged nor expressed, as how boring would that be if everyone was monolithically nodding in total agreement at everyones thoughts.

So keep posting at the cost of your cars not being washed ...Mark

I agree with Mark. I think you did a great job with the article and I think everyone that has posted publicly has been very polite and professional.

Part of the issue here is you picked 5 VERY controversial items/ideas. I actually strongly disagree with 4 of the 5 you posted for a variety of reasons. I don't want to go down that rat hole so I won't comment on them specifically.

To be honest, when I read the print article for the first time I thought to myself, "this wouldn't go over very well on the forum where people can rebut the content".

Again, very well written and I appreciate the effort in contributing to the club!

Scott

Here are 5 mods I am not a big fan of:

1: 4WD:
http://www.google.com/imgres?i...sch&ved=0CEcQMyggMCA

/605a55ad09f49f3c45b220e05ac8d5d4/tumblr_mn5xgkCEgj1qzut9po1_500.jpg

2: Some front air dams do not go over as well:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com...700_d529f98442_m.jpg

3. This? well there is just no room for this:

http://www.google.com/imgres?i...ved=0CBUQMygNMA04rAI

4. I generally don't like front trunk hood scoops but once in a while some one pulls it off well:

http://pantera.infopop.cc/grou...elaide_Australia.jpg

5. I don't think there is a real need for laundry storage but occasionally someone pulls that off well:

http://s61.photobucket.com/use...ssonPantera.jpg.html

When I published Mikael's article in POCA, I had much the same reaction as Scott, but that's only an opinion and everyone has one. So I saw some value to the Club.

I once did a similar article a decade ago titled 'Upgrades that Aren't', and among others I listed the infamous adding of urethane foam to the lower rear subframe openings to seal off rainwater incursion, and honing out of OEM clutch slave cylinders. I also got a few dissenters with the conclusions, but overall, Pantera owners are more polite with their opinions than some 'other' marque members.

given rear mounted AC condensor is the 5th modification, I have a question;

does the fan pull air from outside in or does it push it out?

I have not seen, but has the direction of natual air flow at speed been verified (and if so which direction)?

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:
given rear mounted AC condensor is the 5th modification, I have a question;

does the fan pull air from outside in or does it push it out?

I have not seen, but has the direction of natual air flow at speed been verified (and if so which direction)?

Hope these videos helps with your inquiry...Mark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft5BDwXq2F4

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...481014456#8481014456


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q83Im4mpdUE

quote:

Cooling System: So I’d say, get the basics of your cooling system right, and forget the very creative solutions. They’re not needed and if they do work, they’re compensating for the real problem you have.

I agree with the suggestion to NOT cut holes in the hood, I have no comment on oversized pipes....


I would advocate the cooling system modification performed to my car (#5357), which really only includes one major departure from stock.... (Other than the Gary Hall Brass Radiator and the SACC underdrive pulley). This mod is the Carroll Smith recommended "Auto Air Bleed" lines from both the swirl tank, and the radiator.

I believe the Air Bleed functionality design is how the cooling system should have been designed in the early days. This was used on Ford LeMans Cars, and race-proven prior to Pantera development. Plus it reduces the chances for trapped air in the system to adversely impact cooling performance.

The "Auto Air Bleed" design feature specifically might be a case where the factory engineers may not have come up with the optimal design....

My other two cooling system changes are just "Belt and Suspenders"...


Comments?

Rocky

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:

quote:

Cooling System: So I’d say, get the basics of your cooling system right, and forget the very creative solutions. They’re not needed and if they do work, they’re compensating for the real problem you have.

I agree with the suggestion to NOT cut holes in the hood, I have no comment on oversized pipes....


I would advocate the cooling system modification performed to my car (#5357), which really only includes one major departure from stock.... (Other than the Gary Hall Brass Radiator and the SACC underdrive pulley). This mod is the Carroll Smith recommended "Auto Air Bleed" lines from both the swirl tank, and the radiator.

I believe the Air Bleed functionality design is how the cooling system should have been designed in the early days. This was used on Ford LeMans Cars, and race-proven prior to Pantera development. Plus it reduces the chances for trapped air in the system to adversely impact cooling performance.

The "Auto Air Bleed" design feature specifically might be a case where the factory engineers may not have come up with the optimal design....

My other two cooling system changes are just "Belt and Suspenders"...


Comments?

Rocky

"1" of the winnings race cars in HISTORY WAS the GT40!!!...If Hood venting was NOT advantageous to engine cooling the GT40 hood would NOT have been Soooooooo Extremely VENTED!!!!...To think otherwise is an effort in futility!!!

It is beyond common sense NOT to realize that the venting of TRAPPED HOT AIR under the hood would NOT lead/enhance cooling!!!

To see "The forest through the trees" ONLY requires a person to have their collective eyes OPEN!!!

Should I send you a new pair of glasses???!!!...Mark

http://images.fineartamerica.c...tail-john-colley.jpg

I was looking at this from a perspective (like Mikael, I believe) of operating the car within the original design margins (and somewhat beyond) without major changes from the original.

Certainly if you designed the car like the GT-40, and made a huge, free flowing ducts exhausting the air through the top of the hood, you would increase cooling capacity. To argue otherwise would be silly.

I am agreeing with Mikael that IF your car is overheating.... BEFORE you cut holes in the hood..... MAYBE you want to fix any underperforming elements in the current setup.

Look for an underlying cause.... be it implementing the Ford TSBs for the radiator baffle, or install the right 351C thermostat.

It's funny, I was disagreeing (a little), now I am defending....

If a person is building a monster car (like David, which I think is really cool) and that person feels the need to go a little (or a lot) beyond the original design parameters - that's fine, and a great choice for them.

But those decisions can be driven by things other than technical need - the owner WANTS to have 50% more thermal capacity in their specific car, or the owner installed a 600 HP motor.


PS. I'm not a moron - I realize that the car I was referring to was the GT-40.

Amusing, this topic is!

I made more then minor changes to duct my air out of the hood. I have more of a GT-40 style hood but tried to make it not look like a GT-40.

Reasoning was more then cooling. In a traditional Pantera the air going through the radiator then exits under the car. I have closed all these exits and not the air exits above the car. This evacuates much of the air which would have been pushed under the car.

Gary

Mikael certainly touched a nerve, especially on the subject of cooling, with this article.

I guess the thinking (especially on cooling) is that it is a "matter of degrees"

- Hey! That's a joke, get it?

Anyway - sure - if you are making a super modified car, then pull out the buzz-saw and cut away.

I believe the intent of the article was for those who are operating the car close to the original design parameters.

Obviously - this thread gets people hot under the collar, but it's all in the interest of learning.

Rocky

PS> I couldn't help it!

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:
I made more then minor changes to duct my air out of the hood. I have more of a GT-40 style hood but tried to make it not look like a GT-40.

Reasoning was more then cooling. In a traditional Pantera the air going through the radiator then exits under the car. I have closed all these exits and not the air exits above the car. This evacuates much of the air which would have been pushed under the car.

Gary

Hello Gary; The hood design of the GT40 was twofold "1" being the venting of hot air & "2" the air passing through the cut-away/scoop/vent also added down force to the frontend at speed...Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:Hello Gary; The hood design of the GT40 was twofold "1" being the venting of hot air & "2" the air passing through the cut-away/scoop/vent also added down force to the frontend at speed...Mark

That was the idea. I angled back the duct as much as I could to smooth out air flow. Add bar to replace what I took out but the duct itself is also structural.

I did not want it to look like it was a GT-40 copy so I set it up with a screen. Should I get into a position where I need more cooling I also set it up where the front portion could be bolted with more venting.

The hood was form scratch of course.

http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/hood/hood17.jpg

http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/hood/hv3.jpg

http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/Pantera1.jpg

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:Hello Gary; The hood design of the GT40 was twofold "1" being the venting of hot air & "2" the air passing through the cut-away/scoop/vent also added down force to the frontend at speed...Mark

That was the idea. I angled back the duct as much as I could to smooth out air flow. Add bar to replace what I took out but the duct itself is also structural.

I did not want it to look like it was a GT-40 copy so I set it up with a screen. Should I get into a position where I need more cooling I also set it up where the front portion could be bolted with more venting.

The hood was form scratch of course.

http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/hood/hood17.jpg



http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/hood/hv3.jpg

http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/Pantera1.jpg

VERY NICE WORK Gary!!!...I too am also considering louvering/venting the tops of my front fenders akin to the Porsche Slant Nose design...

https://porschebahn.files.word...2009/10/dsc_2663.jpg

Do you have any close up photos of your fender louvering/venting Gary?

What machining/fabricating process did you utilize to achieve the louvering?

Thanks!!!...Mark

The louvers I bought from Hal Pantera and welded them in. I am planning on buying some louver dies to play with in our press brake but it will not help with this project.

This is about the closest photo I have of them...if you need others I can take more:

I agree with many of your points Mikael, especially concerning the cooling system. For example, aluminum radiators are NOT an upgrade, only a change. When the stock cooling system is properly bled and working as designed, there are no cooling issues.

Anyway, following are some modifications NOT to do to your Pantera...

1. Cool body mods or customizations