George, tell us about your motor...

Mooso,

My Pantera's motor is 100% stock! This always comes as a surprise to others, but the circumstances are very simple to understand. I purchased the car because it was a rust free, un-molested stock Pantera with 60,000 miles on the odo. I disconnected the egr, set the idle, and have been driving it regularly since I purchased it in June 2004.

The dual point distributor has problems and the carb needs a rebuild. But I just keep driving it. I planned on pulling the motor & transaxle last month, but instead drove the car to my mother's before Christmas, I figured with as busy as that holiday season is, I wouldn't have time to work on it anyway. This month Coz insisted I drive the car to Phoenix over last weekend (glad I did), plus a friend asked to go for a ride which I gave her the weekend before. I have also promised another Pantera owner we would go for a drive together before I take the car out of commission. Here it is, nearing the end of January. The wet months are the time to take the car down for maintenance here in So Cal, we'll be half way through the wet season by February.

Truth is, I would much rather drive it than work on it. I'm living a 30 year old dream.

I am planning motor work. My goals are to maintain drivability & reliability, keep the motor looking stock, and to practice what I've been preaching. Keep in mind, my car is used extensively for traveling long distances, for driving to work & around town, for "fun outings" and caravans with other owners. I don't intend to ever put it on a track, I don't like participating in car shows. I don't want the baddest motor on the block, or anything like that. You can't see my motor either, its hidden by the trunk tub, which is ALWAYS in place, ready to hit the road.

With those uses in mind, my motor will run a factory crank, ported iron 4V closed chamber heads, and a hydraulic roller cam. I most likely will not run an off the shelf cam, but will use my own specs. I'm not sure what I'll do for the induction system, I have a couple of good choices laying on the shelf.

For sure, before spring, I will install a new cooling system, a new ignition, a Boss 351 intake manifold (for looks and because it has no egr) & rebuild the oem Autolite carburetor. Or maybe I'll install a Shelby intake and Holley Dominator carb I have on the shelf. Other work I will accomplish this year includes the new Kirk Evans quad headlights and installation of Momo seats. I have a block sitting in my garage, if the budget allows, I'll begin building my motor this summer too. If I can resist jumping in the hot tub with the girls all the time.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

George, thanks for the rundown. I'd be interested in a "351 build-up" series when you get started. Especially your dealings with machinists and the "extra steps" one takes to assure a motor produces supreme power for the components chosen.
By the way, if you take a couple of parts into the hot tub with you...you can scrub 'em up (so to speak) and accomplish two chores in one trip!
"California Dreamin...on such a winter's day"
Mooso.

Hey George!! Have you ever considered leaving the motor that came with it bone stco and keeping it in geletin or whatever, while you build up a completly differant motor to play around with?? Then if you ever sell it and suddenly matching number correctness starts counting because the Pantera market took off, you could put the original unmoplested motor back in.

> My Pantera's motor is 100% stock!

I'd warn you about the stock valves but I know you already know. I got less
than hours on my first 351C before the head of an exhaust valve popped off,
destroying a standard bore block and closed chamber head. A friend recently
purchased a Pantera and I warned him about the valve situation. He decided to
just run it until he could build a motor similar to what you describe. Two
weeks later he called to tell me it was idling funny. He checked compression
and one of the cylinders was low. When he pulled the head, the valve was
cracked and ready to pop off.

> and a hydraulic roller cam.

Vizard has tested the Crane hydraulic roller lifters and says they are worth the $400
price. In his tests, they are worth a bunch of RPM. He also likes the
beehive springs.

> I most likely will not run an off the shelf cam, but will use my own specs.

Vizard spec'd the cam for my stroker. He originally spec'd a Comp Cams 3636
Ford journal Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller intake lobe and a Comp Cams
3637 exhaust lobe with a shorter rocker ratio, to be ground on a steel cam
core. When I called Comp, they said the couldn't grind it. Comp's Ford
hydraulic roller cams are ground on reduced base circle austempered ductile
iron cam cores and their steel cores wouldn't support the lobe profile.
Comp has 8620 steel cam cores but they are meant for high lift solid roller
applications and the tech at Comp (Hadley Owens) said if they try to grind
the 3636/3637 lobes on their steel cam core it would break through the heat
treat, leading to rapid wear. Not good. I ended up matching the lobes with
equivalent ones from Crane. Crane's 351C hydraulic roller cams are ground
on standard base circle 8620 steel cam cores and they were able to cross a
pair of lobes very similar to Comp's. I had a lot of trouble with the phone
monkeys at Comp (before the referred me to Hadley) and was expecting more of
the same at Crane. I asked the Crane phone tech a couple of questions he
couldn't answer so he quickly referred me to his product manager. I told him
I wanted to run a hydraulic roller cam in an aluminum Fontana block and the
first thing he asked was "Is this by any chance for a Pantera?" Hmmm, maybe
this guy might know what he's talking about. I gave him the specs Vizard
worked up for me and he said they could grind something similar. Crane's
closest equivalent grind would be an HR-238/365 lobe on the intake and an
HR-242/372 lobe for the exhaust. The specs ended up as:

HR-238/365 intake lobe
HR-242/372 exhaust lobe
238/242 degress duration @ 0.050" lift (300/304 advertised)
0.621"/0.595" lift (with 1.7:1/1.6:1 ratio rockers)
110 LSA
8620 steel cam core
standard base circle
compatible with Cranes coated steel cam gear

Chase said the durations would grow by approximately 2 degrees when ground on
the larger (relative to SBC) Cleveland base circle. The core was in stock and
they had it on its way within just a few days. Note tht Crane makes a steel
distributor gear for 351C's using steel cam cores.

I spoke with an engine builder that specializes in engines for Cobra replicas
and they recommended the Crane cam. They sell and use both Comp and Crane
cams and say the Crane cams have fewer problems. They also noted a potential
oil pressure leakage problem with reduced base circle cams like the Comp.

> I'd be interested in a "351 build-up" series when you get started. Especially
> your dealings with machinists and the "extra steps" one takes to assure a
> motor produces supreme power for the components chosen.

Have you seen Dave Williams site? He detailed a few 351C builds, including one
for a local Pantera owner:

http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/alex379/alex379a.htm
http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/alex379/alex379b.htm

Dan Jones

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Hey George!! Have you ever considered leaving the motor that came with it bone stco and keeping it in geletin or whatever, while you build up a completly differant motor to play around with?? Then if you ever sell it and suddenly matching number correctness starts counting because the Pantera market took off, you could put the original unmoplested motor back in.

Yes.

I have a spare block in the Pantera shrine (garage). It is my plan to build up that motor. I will also purchase the appropriate sized number stamps, and turn that block into a matching number block as well. I'll have 2 matching number blocks. lol...........

Your friend on the DTBB, George

I like the way you think George. Do you like the Panteras that were imported here better or the ones they sold in europe better??

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
I'd warn you about the stock valves but I know you already know.

The valve situation is always on my mind. I have removed a dropped valve head from a ruined mtor once or twice in my day. My desire is to pull the motor & do some "maintenance" this winter. But time is getting away from me. This would not be a "build up" but just some stuff like SPS rod bolts, flat top pistons & new rings, Clevite 77 bearings, advance the cam 4 degrees with a Romac timing set, replace the balancer, install lifter bore bushings and cam bearing restrictors, swap the heads for quench heads fitted with new valves, retainers & keepers. I have 90% of the parts in the garage (shrine)

I had a lot of trouble with the phone
monkeys at Comp (before the referred me to Hadley) and was expecting more of
the same at Crane. I asked the Crane phone tech a couple of questions he
couldn't answer so he quickly referred me to his product manager. I told him
I wanted to run a hydraulic roller cam in an aluminum Fontana block and the
first thing he asked was "Is this by any chance for a Pantera?" Hmmm, maybe
this guy might know what he's talking about.

Isn't that always refreshing?

The specs ended up as:

HR-238/365 intake lobe
HR-242/372 exhaust lobe
238/242 degress duration @ 0.050" lift (300/304 advertised)
0.621"/0.595" lift (with 1.7:1/1.6:1 ratio rockers)
110 LSA

Was the "short" exhaust lift dictated by the flow characteristics of your C302 heads?

Does the 4300D use a unique power valve? I think finding a power valve that
matches your cam might be difficult, depending upon the cam overlap.

Well, my cam will be quite mild, with a lot of vacuum at idle. I have used 4300D carbs on what I considered strong motors back in my day. With smog regs what they were in California back then, it was a necessity. I have a couple of 750 dp Holleys on the shelf to fall back on.

Thanks for contributing Dan, it's nice having you on the DTBB, I admire your engineer's eye for detail. Will you be at Vegas this year, I would love to finally have the opportunity to meet you in person?

Your friend on the DTBB, George

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
I like the way you think George. Do you like the Panteras that were imported here better or the ones they sold in europe better??

I TRULY like them all equally!

Your friend on the DTBB, George

> Was the "short" exhaust lift dictated by the flow characteristics of your
> C302 heads?

My C302B heads do have strong exhaust flow (230 CFM on the exhaust side)
but I think the reason is that exhaust blows down quickly and any lift after
that is wasted. My engine builder was in favor of a shorter exhaust duration
as well.

> I have used 4300D carbs on what I considered strong motors back in my day.

I never had any problems with mine. I kinda liked the sound too. Not quite
a Thermoquad sound but pretty cool.

> Thanks for contributing Dan, it's nice having you on the DTBB, I admire your
> engineer's eye for detail.

Thanks for the kind words.

> Will you be at Vegas this year, I would love to finally have the opportunity
> to meet you in person?

I hadn't made plans yet. What usually happens is I get sent out to support
flight test and have to miss it. BTW, there's another Dan Jones in the
club from San Diego.

Dan Jones
St. Louis, Nissouri

This is a little off topic:

Dan, you probably already know this.
But if you have any trouble finding performance parts for the Rover v8 there are plenty of specialists in the UK. I live quite near two of them and have dealt with a third.

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Hey George!! Have you ever considered leaving the motor that came with it bone stco and keeping it in geletin or whatever, while you build up a completly differant motor to play around with?? Then if you ever sell it and suddenly matching number correctness starts counting because the Pantera market took off, you could put the original unmoplested motor back in.

Yes.

I have a spare block in the Pantera shrine (garage). It is my plan to build up that motor. I will also purchase the appropriate sized number stamps, and turn that block into a matching number block as well. I'll have 2 matching number blocks. lol...........

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Are you serious about stamping the block?

John

> Dan, you probably already know this.
> But if you have any trouble finding performance parts for the Rover v8 there
> are plenty of specialists in the UK. I live quite near two of them and have
> dealt with a third.

Thanks. I think I've got all the parts I'll need lined up. I wouldn't mind
a good fuel injection manifold but I need something that matches the larger
ports of the ported Buick 300 aluminum heads I'm using. The parts list
looks something like this:

ported 1964 Buick 300 aluminum heads
Buick V6 Stage 1 tulip head valves
adjustable roller rocker set-up (new shafts, Harland Sharp rocker arms)
Rover 4.0L cross-bolted block (align-bored to take to Buick 300 bearings)
Buick 300 crankshaft
Rover/Buick forged rods with ARP bolts or Eagle 5700SS rods (have both)
aluminum flywheel
gear reduction mini-starter
TR8 oil pan and scraper
Wilpower single plane intake with injector bosses (on order from Australia)
large tube TR8 headers and dual exhaust

Should be just under 300 cubes (294 to 296) and 300 lbs. The only major
bits missing are the pistons (likely to be Wiseco custom forged in the 10:1
compression range). I've got both Crower 50232 and 50233 cams on hand but
I plan on working up some custom cam specs. I'll start out with a carb but
would like to go with a fuel injection set-up eventually. It would be
relatively easy to use a Rover 3.9L injection manifold set-up (which I also
have) but the ports are too small. Lanocha Racing here in the States makes
an interesting intake that looks better for high performance and fits under
a sloping TR8 hood but they apparently can't be bothered to answer email
and don't list a phone number.

Required Pantera content: Once the aluminum V8 for the Pantera is done, I
can get started on the aluminum V8 for the Triumph.

Dan Jones

Dan,
Wow.

Rover V8s are common here and are found in all
sorts of small cars they were never meant for.

I've often wondered whether Rover 4.6 engine would worth putting into a Pantera.

It was the Rover V8 (in a Triumph Stag) that introduced me to the lovely v8 rumbly noise. It's part of the reason I bought a Pantera.

Anyhow, the following links may be useful, if not you will at least find them interesting.
These two are both less than 30 miles from me.
http://www.rpiv8.com/engine-8.htm
http://www.v8tuner.co.uk/

And this also
http://www.magnaparva.com/catalog.html
which I just found

Lastly:
http://www.realsteel.co.uk/
Rubbish web site but they carry quite a bit of Rover stuff, cams pistons, manifolds etc

quote:

Originally posted by johnk: Are you serious about stamping the block? John

Yes. For the stealth aspect of it, not that I would ever decieve a prospective buyer. I have no plans to sell the car, I plan to hand it down to one of my sons. I would never decieve somebody for financial gain, if so I wouldn't be blabbing about it on the internet. I just think if I'm going to try and keep the motor stock looking, even though it is modified internally, then a matching number externally is part of the ruse.

George

Yeah George. That is called being a sleeper. The engine looks bone stock on the outside but inside it has the internals to crank out 500 ponies. THey even make a fuel injection system that looks just like a four barrel.

> Rover V8s are common here and are found in all
> sorts of small cars they were never meant for.

I've heard them described as the small block Chevy of England.

> I've often wondered whether Rover 4.6 engine would worth putting into a
> Pantera.

Well, it would certainly be lighter and smaller than the 4.6L Ford that
a few have swapped in. Kennedy makes adapters to bolt up to the ZF
bellhousing and the flat top Rover valve covers are similar to 351C Boss
valve covers:

http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/dan-tr8/tr8_6

The big drawback to the Rover V8 is head flow. Rover never did much to
those old Buick 215 heads which were a bit restrictive even on 215 cubes.
The 1964 Buick 300 cylinder heads I'm using have bigger ports and valves
than anything Rover ever offered but even ported they flow around 210 CFM
on the intake side (compare to the 330 CFM my C302B heads flow). That's
fine for the 325+ HP I plan for the TR8 but not the 550+ HP I want for the
Pantera. My Pantera engine will be all aluminum like the Rover V8 but will
still weigh around 100 lbs more than the Rover (but 150 lbs less than an
iron Windsor or Cleveland) as it's based on a much stronger race block of
larger displacement capability:

http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/Fontana-Engine-Builc?page=1

I've heard abou the Wildcat heads and intake for the Rover but they are
very pricey here.

> It was the Rover V8 (in a Triumph Stag) that introduced me to the lovely v8
> rumbly noise. It's part of the reason I bought a Pantera.

I've seen them installed in kit Cobras as well.

> Anyhow, the following links may be useful, if not you will at least find them
> interesting.

Thanks, I've bookmarked them.

> These two are both less than 30 miles from me.

On my previous program, I used to travel to England. I wanted to see
if I could look up a couple of those palces but never found the time.

Dan Jones