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GT5-S TARGA

cybomancybomanMember
Hey guys, good to see you again Mark, Russ, and Ron! It's been too long.

The red Pavesi Targa for sale in Germany for 129,000 Euro ($170+k US) appears to be a 1990, judging by the 'sport' seats and the 351 Windsor in it. If I recall correctly, only the last few Panteras before going over to the Si had Windsors because they ran out of Clevelands, and sport seats (which look the same as in the Si). All of the 41 Si Panteras had 5.0L fuel injected mustang motors in them. Of those 41, 4 were Pavesi Targas (you were close Boss!). Of those 4, 2 had the only 6 speed (Getrag) transaxles that came in a Pantera from the factory. Franz's blue targa Si is one of the 6 speeds.

Roland Jaekel's Pantera was a '75 GTS and was the car Pavesi used as the prototype. Roland bought the last set of steel 5-S flared fenders from the factory and converted his Pantera to a GT5-S about 13 or so years ago. He also added the windshield spoiler from the Si to his car, which I think looks really nice on his particular Pantera. I've heard that there were between 6 and 12 GT5-S Pavesi Targas built. I don't know if the 12 would include the prototype and Si's, but even only a dozen over a 7,000+ unit run makes them super rare. I myself just counted 12 in my picture library, including the prototype, mine, and all 4 Si's, but 5 of those were red with black interior GT5-S's. 2 of those were in Pavesi's ads, so the same car(s) could've been counted more than once.

I once considered going for an Si, but during my very brief research to import it found that if you CAN get it done, it could take up to a year (possibly longer), and cost as much as the car to get done. I would certainly verify that, or seek out other options (Canada?) if one seriously wanted to do it, though.

When I first came across my Pantera, the previous owner had the original blueprints from Pavesi that came with the car. That was in 1995. He told me that Gary Hall was hounding him relentlessly for a copy of the blueprints showing where and how the car was reinforced so that he could finish 'Purple Passion' (Hall's targa Pantera). He told me that Gary offered him 25k for a copy. He told me to recoup 25k of the price of the car by selling a copy to Gary. He wouldn't do it because he felt it would hurt the 'exclusivity' of the car if he did. I understood his point. I was in Vegas at the Fun Rally in '93 where Hall had said his targa would debut. When the time came, all he had were parts laid out on the floor around a central 'cage' that he made that he would actually have to cut the Pantera apart to get into. He was having a hard time making his targa Pantera structurally sound enough to be viable. Come 1995 and Hall still has no finished targa Pantera and the previous owner tells me about this "Gary Hall from California...", I had a feeling he wasn't bullsteining me. I mention this because apparently Gary took a different approach to reinforcing his car with the steel 'swiss cheese' rocker boxes and engine compartment roll bar. It seems the Pavesi way wound up working better because even their prototype (the '75) which was not an Embo body Pantera held up just as well. Gary also used Honda Del Sol pieces for his targa roof lip integration and latching, and Pavesi used pins and latches from a Ferrari 328. Gary told me that converting that ('71?) Pantera to a targa was so much more of a headache than it was worth that he wouldn't do another one for 500k!

The previous owner never let me see the blueprints for fear that I was one of Gary's agents (that's what he said). I didn't buy the car then because I was only 27 and didn't have the whole almost 100k he was asking (hence his "recoup from Gary" angle). My Pantera traded hands 3 more times before I got it 8 years later, and when I finally got it, the blueprints were gone! I tried to trace them backwards, but the trail was cold. I've had several communications with Pavesi about it, but they always seem to run out of English at the most inopportune times! I did get from them that there were no modifications to the back of the car. The engine stayed in while they did their thing. There is no rollbar intergral or otherwise.

The main support for the lack of the roof is in the those 1/4" x 4-5" steel planks running under the rockers. Incidentally, these steel supports only hang down less than an inch past the floor pans (which are dropped 4"), and not as far down as the front spoiler. I've never hit the steel supports once in 10 years (but the front spoiler hasn't been as lucky...). Removing the outer rocker and welding in an oval tube would've been cleaner, but more work = more money! If you look at the profile of a regular GT5-S, you will see the front subframe and floor pans hanging below the rockers. These targa supports actually clean up that view. when I first got my Pantera, the rocker supports were painted body color and stuck out like sore thumbs. One of the first things I did was paint them flat black and they are so far under the body that they virtually disappeared!

There are more thick steel plates welded around the perimeter of each floor pan, and the windshield surround is heavily reinforced. When I place a floor jack under the front subframe behind the front wheel and jack, the whole side of the car will rise almost level. While in the air, the doors open and close perfectly. This Pantera is MUCH stiffer than my '74 was. The last time I jacked my '74 up like that, I thought the windshield was going to pop out! My particular targa Pantera does not make any noises whatsoever. No sqeaks, no rattles, no banging, no moaning, no creaking. Nothing. It is supremely solid! I have no idea how much weight in steel was added to achieve this, and I don't care either! It can't be more than a couple or so hundred pounds, and it's not a race car where every pound counts, so what difference does it make?

The roadster owned by Halloran was made by a shop that makes prototype cars and I heard it cost him more than 250k to make. It has a complete box frame in the rear that comes up behind the seats and basically forms a cube that the drivetrain sits in. It's a true roadster, so there is no roof of any kind, or a provision for one.

In regard to the styling of the GT5-S, when I first wanted a targa, I didn't want a 5-S and set out to convert my '74 because I liked the stock body better. After concluding that it would cost more to convert my '74 than to buy the '86 5-S already done, I had my answer: I would buy the 5-S and put regular pantera sheetmetal on it! It didn't take me long to realize that the 5-S has presence. Pictures generally don't do a 5-S justice at all! It also looks like a much more modern car, and the nonstock wheels really emphasize this. Most people think my pantera is fairly new, certainly not 27 years old! I could understand what some might say about the mix of rounded and sharp edges not mixing well, but have you seen the 2014 Corvette? It starts more rounded and curved over the front fenders and windshield, and winds up almost completely sharp and angular and boxy at the rear. I think it's the best looking 'Vette ever!

I feel that the Pantera lends itself extrodinarily well to being a targa. You have to see it in person to fully appreciate it. Unfortunately, it is like a superb aroma that you just can't smell through a computer! I think it looks much better with the roof out and to me, the lines flow beautifully from front to back. There is nothing abrupt, or clumsy about it. However, the scoop and delta wing make the back look too busy and heavy. They put too much color over the back and make it look very out of balance when the roof is out. That's why I took those off of my Pantera.

Sitting in it is even more enjoyable, and driving in it is just a spectacular and visceral experience! I feel safer driving it because I can actually see whether or not the people around me actually see me. Anyone want to go for a ride?

Here's a link to a thread with a picture gallery of targa Panteras I made years ago for those who would like to see more pictures of many different targa cars:

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...120068662#6120068662

I hope this answers some of the questions asked!

Michael

(Here's one of my favorite pictures of my Pavesi Targa GT5-S)

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alfa4funalfa4funMember
quote:
However, the scoop and delta wing make the back look too busy and heavy. They put too much color over the back and make it look very out of balance when the roof is out. That's why I took those off of my Pantera.


I agree with that, the Pantera for sale looks much better without the delta wing and the kinesis wheels are a good choice.

Congrats with your car
adoberetreatadoberetreatMember
Michael, that was very imformative and interesting insights into the Targa Pantera's.

One thing that I don't think was mentioned, was the additional cost involved in buying a GT5-S Pevasi Targa back in the mid '80's. I heard somewhere that ordering a Pevasi GT5-S nearly doubled the price of the car. Maybe someone can verify if I am correct on this? I own an '88 GT5-S Amerisport. When I bought the car, it came with the original Amerisport invoice from 1988. The invoice of the car back in 1988 was 89k. Since the mid to late '80's, if you calculate using an inflation index compared to that of today, the price of money has approximately doubled. That means a GT5-S purchased in 1988 for around 90k would be the equivalent of paying 180k in today's money. If you factor in what you had to pay for a Pevasi GT5-S back in the mid nineteen eighties, which was about double the cost of a regular GT5-S, it would have cost the equivalent in today's money around 360k. Wow! Can that be right? If so, that would explain why only 14 or so Targa's were ever produced.

David #9465
cybomancybomanMember
David B,

It would be great to see you all again! Keep me posted on what's happening, especially if you're down my way. I definitely want to hit some events this season and catch up with some friends.


David (adobe),

It's been a while! How's the Pantera? Did it come out the way you expected? Is Pantera ownership all that you'd thought it would be? How do you like driving it? I heard the targa option added 50% to the price of the Pantera. So your 90k GT5-S would have totaled about 135k if it were a Pavesi Targa. Definitely a hunk of change!

Incidentally, all of the Pavesi Targa Panteras were GT5-S models, which were made beginning with model year 1985 and ending with 1990 (of which, I'm told, about 129 were produced). The exceptions were the prototype, which was a 1975 GTS, and the 4 Si's, which were all 1993's (with successive serial numbers).

Of all the Pavesi Targas made, only 2 made it to the U.S. Besides mine, there is a red with black one possibly still lurking here that was once owned by Mike DeGonnis of M&D Engineering in Queens, NY (It was a very serious Pantera shop back in the day). I saw it one time at his shop (easily 20 years ago), but had no idea at the time what I was looking at. I do remember it quite distinctly, though, as it made an impression on me. I got the feeling that he liked the earlier cars better, and he sold it shortly after I saw it. I haven't seen or heard about it since. It is possible that it found it's way back to Europe.

One red with red/black interior GT5-S Targa Pantera was converted to look like an Si. There are several cues that give away that is not an original Si, like the Campy (rather than Technomagnesio) wheels, the side skirts, fender gills, mirrors, the fuel filler (on the wrong side), the older gauges, switches, and climate controls, to name a few. I didn't see the engine bay. Besides, the 4 Si targas are burgundy/tan, blue/tan, gold/black, and yellow/black. It's hard to tell by the small and low quality pictures whether or not this Pantera is, in fact, a Pavesi conversion.


tajon,

Shoot me a PM the next time you're headed this way and we'll see if we can meet up!



ALFA4FUN,

If that Targa Pantera sold in 4 days, I'm sure he got close to his asking price which bodes well for Pantera owners everywhere, particularly those with rarer models!


Michael
belgiumbarrybelgiumbarryMember
quote:
Originally posted by adoberetreat:
Michael, that was very imformative and interesting insights into the Targa Pantera's.

One thing that I don't think was mentioned, was the additional cost involved in buying a GT5-S Pevasi Targa back in the mid '80's. I heard somewhere that ordering a Pevasi GT5-S nearly doubled the price of the car. Maybe someone can verify if I am correct on this? I own an '88 GT5-S Amerisport. When I bought the car, it came with the original Amerisport invoice from 1988. The invoice of the car back in 1988 was 89k. Since the mid to late '80's, if you calculate using an inflation index compared to that of today, the price of money has approximately doubled. That means a GT5-S purchased in 1988 for around 90k would be the equivalent of paying 180k in today's money. If you factor in what you had to pay for a Pevasi GT5-S back in the mid nineteen eighties, which was about double the cost of a regular GT5-S, it would have cost the equivalent in today's money around 360k. Wow! Can that be right? If so, that would explain why only 14 or so Targa's were ever produced.

David #9465


sorry , but is this correct ? 89k? in '88 ??
Anyone know the Europ prices for the '80-90's cars ?
adoberetreatadoberetreatMember
BelgiumBarry- I double checked the invoice of my '88 Amerisport GT5-S from 1988. The cost was $88k and change. Because these 5-S cars were grey market cars here in the U.S., Amerisport had to have the cars shipped to the USA without the engine. AmeriSport installed the engine, made the car DOT compliant, and then Amerisport became the listed manufacturer. I don't really know what these GT5-S' sold for in Europe. But in the USA these cars were quite an expensive proposition. I believe less than 50 of these cars ever made it to the USA.

David #9465
belgiumbarrybelgiumbarryMember
quote:
Originally posted by adoberetreat:
BelgiumBarry- I double checked the invoice of my '88 Amerisport GT5-S from 1988. The cost was $88k and change. Because these 5-S cars were grey market cars here in the U.S., Amerisport had to have the cars shipped to the USA without the engine. AmeriSport installed the engine, made the car DOT compliant, and then Amerisport became the listed manufacturer. I don't really know what these GT5-S' sold for in Europe. But in the USA these cars were quite an expensive proposition. I believe less than 50 of these cars ever made it to the USA.

David #9465


David, i believe you , but just had some doubts how to understand the invoice from Caroll Shelby for 3 new GT5S Panteras he sold , one of which is mine now... OK, it was '86 and he speaks of "chassis", would that be without engines at that time of sale ?
price was around 30k $ / car
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