Is it possible this thing works?

Kelly Coffield (Panterror) purchased one out of curiosity.

He made a report on the 351 Cleveland Forum

ProComp 2x4 Manifold

-G

It's a strange one for sure. It would be ironic if it works, but it doesn't make sense that it would?

Looks like a lot of people are interested though.

We used one of those with two springvalves ( or how do you call them ? ) that came off a vorklift truck that was running on LPG. The spring valve is just a big valve opening on the engine vacuum and thus sucking a lot of air and LPG in the manifold. Because LPG is a liquit gas, it cooled the air going in the manifold producing a lot of power.
This way we made a dragracer on LPG. It was succesfull however LPG is burning on a higher themperature, so engine cooling became a problem.

The other way you can use them, is placing your webers in a horizontal way. this will keep the set up much lower, like this Bizarinni. The 90 degree adaptors between holley and weber patern are on the market.

Arno

Isn't a manifold like this "tuned" by an under carb plate mounting four tubes?
The tubes increase port velocity and the open plenum removes restriction?
This is a tunnel ram without the ram tubes?

Oh well. It's cheap enough to hang on the wall for decoration. It does look good.

Oh well, to be honest, we only used it because it was the only thing that would fit
And it was an other brand
But it worked !

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug: Just came across this. It appears to be basically a box ram, like the Bud Moore Trans-Am race manifold of the 70s but for 2x4 Holleys.

Sort of. Primary difference is the Bud Moore Maxiplenum has about 8” of runner for each cylinder lying across the valley where this one has essentially no runner.

quote:

I would also presume since it is the Pro-Comp brand made for the 3v intake ports that it is fresh out of China? It is cheap at $359. Must be a good exchange rate at the moment? Anyone with any opinions on it?

It is Procomp, at least that was the return address in Rialto, CA. The quality of the casting isn’t so much an issue. The design of the intake is.

quote:

Anyone know what the intake gasket part number is so I can take a look at the alighnment/mis-alighnment scenario?

I did provide some reference dimensions for the ports in the pics at the link George referenced to my post over at the 335 series forum.

quote:

Isn't a manifold like this "tuned" by an under carb plate mounting four tubes? The tubes increase port velocity and the open plenum removes restriction? This is a tunnel ram without the ram tubes?

The runner length on this intake will make the overall induction track tune to essentially that of the intake port length in the head, which means it will not come into Helmholtz resonance at any rpm within practical reach in useful terms. This is because the reversion pressure wave will cease once it sees the plenum opening and adding length under the carb won’t change this. This does not mean it won’t “work”, but that is a relative term. It is unlikely to work well, and is most likely to work very poorly, but that doesn’t mean the engine won’t run with this intake and a couple carbs on it. I didn’t run it because I didn’t feel it a good investment of time, ….but hey someone else may have a different view and it’s OK with me if they express it.

quote:

Oh well. It's cheap enough to hang on the wall for decoration. It does look good.

I sent it on its way to its next home. He may be a member of the forum based upon his eBay handle. As FYI, the seller is open to offers and the BIN price on my auction is a clue to what he accepted from me. I donated shipping as a public service to 335 series forum.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230816...id=p3984.m1587.l2649

Best,
K

quote:

p

I went back and looked at the pictures of the Shelby ram box and I see what you mean with the intake runner length. I would have come to all of the conclusions you did once the excitement of discovery of the manifold had worn off.

It is interesting that Dan Jones had tested the Offe 360 and it did so poorly. I can't keep up with his results. I need pictorial data spread sheets to.

I suppose right now the only way to get a decent 2x4 manifold for the C is to build a sheet metal one.

Edelbrock may eventually decide to build one but since they are invested in the old Carter design under their name, there is no reason to even hope they would build one for Holleys. Not that Holley are the center of the Universe, they are just a better alternative to the Edelbrock carbs. Personally I think, that they are a much better carb.

Thanks for you insight K. I suppose we would all love to see a nice 2x4 intake for the Cleveland?

I always thought that the 427 Ford Tunnel Wedge design would adapt reasonably well to the Cleveland. It is about the size the engine can use.

Doug

Here's a couple of pics of "roll your own" 2X4 manifolding for the 351C utilizing the Offenhauser 360 degree manifold as the base. The runners aren't much longer than those of the ProComp manifold, but at least the 360 degree manifold has a plenum divider.





-G

I actually remember seeing a couple of these in the "olden days". I thought that there was an Offe built with a changeable top?

The thing to do is to start with a real existing 2x4 manifold that works and adapt it to the C.

The problem with that is you run into an issue where those runners will only flow 280 and the good heads now flow in the area of 330.

There is no perfect animal unless it is specific to your heads and block.

Too bad Ak Miller was the only one to get his hands on the Ford version?

You're referring to the Hot Rod magazine article where some parts swapping and early dyno testing was performed.

I don't know if the one in the Hot Rod Magazine article was the only one ever cast, or if several were cast, but there is an SK/XE parts collector who owns one. I don't know exactly who it is, but I've seen him mentioned on the 'net.

Its looks like a dual plane manifold to me in the Hot Rod Magazine article, but according to what I've read it was actually a single plane manifold with the rear end kicked up higher than normal.

According to Ford the dual plane Shelby manifold with a 1050 cfm Holley Dominator worked better, made more horsepower, than the dual carb manifold, which would explain why the dual carb manifold didn't make it into production.

-G

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug: The thing to do is to start with a real existing 2x4 manifold that works and adapt it to the C. The problem with that is you run into an issue where those runners will only flow 280 and the good heads now flow in the area of 330. There is no perfect animal unless it is specific to your heads and block.

I think the Shelby B2 Dual quad intake with spacers would be the best performance option (other than tunnel ram of course) for under hood fitment. It’s a dual quad dual plane with good port compatibility for the C that is spaced to accommodate a conventional distributor.

quote:

Too bad Ak Miller was the only one to get his hands on the Ford version?

Here’s Ak and the Ford 8V for the C. This is from a Ford “Put ons” article. George is correct that it was a single plane intake. Didnt do so well even in Ak's hands. Scarce as Yeti sightings.

Best,
K

The Shelby B2 dual 4 intake is a work of art. Beautiful nice round ports, curving here and there, up and down, in and out...uhhh!

They come up very very rarely. Last one I saw for sale two years ago went for $3500. I would take a guess and say it would likely work really really well.

Chances are it is a nock off of a HM B2 manifold laying in someones archives even then, with a Shelby logo on it?

If there was a manifold to copy and expand upon for the Cleveland, I'd vote that's the one. Anyone who sees it wouldn't argue.

I'm currently running the 289 version of that manifold on my 347 using 2 1850's. Having run Webers as well, I'd opt for the 2/4s, given a choice. It has such a nice powerful torque through the rpm range, and when the secondaries open it lights the tires on fire with this huge womp, and you can run around all day need be with just using one two barrel using, get this... #59 jets!

The Webers and I are currently on a lovers holiday. Maybe we'll get back together, maybe not?

Not that the Webers are shabby by any means, but all the problems of a carburetored IR intake just go away with the 2/4. I haven't burned my eyebrows off with the 2/4's yet either like with the Webers.

I told you all to never look down the throats of the Webers and rev them right? Gee-ze, kids?

As far as a single 1050 on THAT manifold working better is simply hog wash. That may in fact be some left over Communist brainwashing infiltrating the high performance car after market industry of the time. The press was highly infiltrated then.

It is simply too ridiculous of a statement to take seriously. It sucks with a 750. How can it be better with a 1050? Impossible.

I can't really tell from that picture if this is a single or dual plane manifold although there are the slightest hints that it is dual plane to me.

Even if it isn't, the 427 Tunnel-wedge is single plane as well. I never heard anyone claim that it doesn't work very well?

It has resemblances to the Boss 302 dual plane, which has the same type of round port runners and carb locations.

Since this was a study likely for possible production, I would bet it is a dual plane.

Somewhere around this time Ford pulled the plug on the high performance program. There was a lot of initial internal panicking. All efforts needed to be concentrating on emissions certification and the immediate dropping of all high compression engines.

Timing for the high performance Cleveland was bad. Boss 429 items seemed to have had priority since they were done first.

The 2/4 B9 manifold was made in enough numbers to have survived. I remember it being on the HM price list. Never saw the Cleveland parts listed though.

I wouldn't mind leads on locating one if anyone was so kind to divulge that.

...Those manifolds are 'Low' Risers.
Ak Millers' is a 'High' Rise.
In these pics, IS a 'Ram'.

Tell Me 'This' Doesn't Work!!

I can pull the Front Tires Off the Ground without even trying! And Not move forward, but a couple of Inches!

Yes! I'am 'Old School', And Proud of It!...

2

3

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug: Since this was a study likely for possible production, I would bet it is a dual plane.

There's no need to speculate about the 2x4 intake configuration. It is known to be and identified in the article as the open plenum dual four Ford prototype with a pair of 710 Holleys. In the pictures you can see they are vacuum secondary carbs. The article said low speed operation was very poor, and the engine didn't "start to work" until 5krpm, and was all done by 6600rpm. 346 ft-lbs @ 5krpm and 398 HP @ 6600. The cam specs were vague but characterized as a "solid over 300 degrees duration with 520 lift". -Not much pop by today's standards. I can post the entire article if you want to see cam specs but I think the entire article is archived somewhere at the 335 Series Forum.

Best,
K

Yes Marlin but the Weiand TR has what 8 to 10 inch runners? This new manifold HAS NONE! It is just a big plenum with a dual four mounting plate.

I doubt it would give the torque to pull the tires off of the ground at any time BUT no one seems to have run it yet.

FYI, the Shelby Boss 302 2/4 and the Ford 289 2/4 T/A intakes are high risers too. Very much like the manifold Miller has in the picture.

The question with that manifold is that is the only place most of us have ever seen it and the angle of the picture doesn't clearly show if it is a single plane or a dual plane.

No one is questioning whether or not your set up works because obviously it does. It does look like you made a plenum under each carb so a regular Holley 1050 series carb will work.

The only thing with that setup is you need to idle on two carbs since the front and rear plenums are seperate.

In doing that, you change the nature of the power pulse the overlap on the cam produces and you give up the economy of idling/running on just one two barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug: Since this was a study likely for possible production, I would bet it is a dual plane.

There's no need to speculate about the 2x4 intake configuration. It is known to be and identified in the article as the open plenum dual four Ford prototype with a pair of 710 Holleys. In the pictures you can see they are vacuum secondary carbs. The article said low speed operation was very poor, and the engine didn't "start to work" until 5krpm, and was all done by 6600rpm. 346 ft-lbs @ 5krpm and 398 HP @ 6600. The cam specs were vague but characterized as a "solid over 300 degrees duration with 520 lift". -Not much pop by today's standards. I can post the entire article if you want to see cam specs but I think the entire article is archived somewhere at the 335 Series Forum.

Best,
K

Even so it would be nice to see the unit in person and run now. It may be similar to the HM B9 2/4 and/or the 427 Tunnel Wedge.

I wouldn't characterize either as a "street manifold" and I have seen them both run on the street.

I have the 180 2/4 on my 67 GT500/427 with the 715 427 matching carbs. I suppose it produces more torque down low then the Tunnel wedge does, maybe a lot more, but generally speaking it doesn't get used to run to the grocery store any more nor in tractor pulls so really, as you suggested, performance is all relative.

Plus even if the Tunnel Wedge is a dog until 3500, it doesn't matter. It still makes retched excess...even as a dog. The top end, that's another matter, and yes the rpm of the top end is relative too.

I don't have the article of the test. I do recall reading it sometime last year. I would point out that the terms of disappointment the author is using or even if he is repeating Millers remarks are relative, and somewhat judgmental as well.

I doubt the project died because of disappointment in the manifold. Emissions and the first fuel crunch is what killed that.

All purely academic now I'm afraid. Still, I'd suffer with the manifold...even though it's a "disappointment".

Thanks for posting that information. All is good.

The Shelby Boss 302 2X4 manifold was dual plane.

I think Marlin's tunnel ram looks bitchen!

The Hot Rod Magazine article in question can be found in that Blue soft cover book about the 351C. Kelly may be right, it may be over in the Cleveland's Forever Forum too. I know of one more place it might be located ... I'm gonna check it out.

-G

Here's the article

Thanks for posting GP (Grandpa Pence).

Alright, I'll say it...and not to start a techno brawl or something like it, but the cam specs are very vague, not to mention that for these set ups to work, they are going to require something more then a .500 lift cam and/or just to make the heads themselves work. Try .600 maybe?

Interpret this all as you like but to me the information in the article tells me virtually nothing, except the engine in most of the tests was grossly undercammed/and or incorrectly cammed for the application, a mismatch of equipment in almost all cases.

It shows nothing about the performance potential of the manifold other then you just can't swap it over onto a 2v engine and expect much at all?

The manifold is garbage? Really? I'll take it off of your hands and I won't even charge you to haul it away. No problemo. Call me any time.

This is the Shelby Boss302 2x4 (for Holley 1850's). Not bad for $135. I might also point out this thing is a work of art. This picture does not do it justice or show you how freakin' tall it is.

Anyone have one to sell or trade PM me. Same with the 351c Ak Miller manifold.

Hi all, 1st post here and digging up an old thread to boot!
I came across this this thread while looking at clevo intakes for sale, which lead to finding a pic of one of my 8V clevo Offy intakes. Page 1 there is a pic of an Offy 360* Equaflo intake with an epoxy/bolted on top plate adapting it to an 8V intake. I hae made several of these over the years and mist if them were for straight LPG fuel use running 2x impco 425 gas mixers. Or in a couple cases 2x carter AFB or Edelbrock 4barrel carbs.
They work far far better than the currently available open plenum (basically blower intake) 8v intakes you can buy on the net.
The Offy 360 has a center divider which helps them out a lot.
They are not near as good as a good single plane intake for upper hp/tq but are a very driveable intake particularly running straight gas as a fuel.
They are not as good for real low end tq as a good dual plane intake but do allow for the extra fuel demand required for a gaseous fuel. They also work way better on a stroker (393/408 etc) than a 351ci engine.
But, good looks with 2x carbs and they have tons of hood clearance as they are very low.
Cheers,